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CK16 #1 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 19:30

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First I want to say thank you for being here today! If you are here then you probably have some interest in the current state of the M48A1 Patton in game it is a bit older then its peers and is having some issues keeping up with the times lately. 

 

The question I have for here to keep in the Q&A is...Why not?

Support the M60A1 & T95E9 for Tier X - 2016!

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Like us on Facebook! (Click the image above!)

 

The past few days there has been discussion in General chat and I did conduct a survey of sorts just to see if there is support/interest among the community for something to be done. The answer was yes with a decent amount of support.

 

American Med Survey 

M60A1 poll

 

Articles covering the subject more in depth!

-Red, White, Black and Blue, Part 1: The Patton’s Plight!

-Red, White, Black and Blue, Part 2: In Search of the Game Changer

-Red, White, Black and Blue, Part 3: The Contenders

 

Article on Stats

-American Hope, American Dreams!

 

SO with out further delay this is a campaign HQ for NA support material post here and anything to spread the word

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M60A1 and T95E9 2016!

 

I am here to discuss such things as try to gain support here for the US Medium tree or possible trees to be reworked or added to make them more competitive with the current Med's in the game. The M48A1 is an ok tank but with the power creep of new tanks that have been added since the release of the M48 years ago. The American tree is in a state of being idle for most many don't want it and new players are steered away cause the tanks can be challenging at time and by no means are as easy of a grind as the Russian Heavies are. Now I am not here to compare apples to oranges with Heavies and Mediums I am here for Mediums to Medium Comparison how the M48 stacks up with a few of its counter parts just by a simple yet very important "stat"....Year it entered service. 

 

M48 Patton - 1953 (Entered Service)

T-62 - 1961 (Entered Service)

Leopard 1- 1965 (Production started)

STB-1 - 1970

Centurion Action X- 1955 (Program started)

AMX-30B -1966 (First production vehicle finished)

Chieftain - 1966 (Enter Service)


Option 1: Complete Overhaul and T95E9 Tree!

 

Here I will try to state a logical argument for something to be done with the M48A1 being replaced....Yes the beloved Fatton to be replaced and moved down to tier IX where I feel it fits better. I know what you guys are thinking now. "But OP what will be lost!" Well...the easy but sad choice would be to remove the T20 (for now will bring that back up later). Courtesy of Legiondude who had a great idea for a rework of the Current tree. The great part about this would be no paper tanks or prototype tanks would be in this tree alone!

 

Tier 7 M26: 76mm M1A2, 90mm M3

Tier 8 M46: 90mm M3, 90mm M3 Late(185-ish standard), 90mm M36(219/275/45)

Tier 9 M48: 90mm M41(219/275/45), 105mm M68

Tier 10: M60A1: 105mm M68

 

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Yes the M60 specifically the M60A1 that entered service in 1963, With the latest additions to the game and changes and further flexing of the time line it is well with in a balanced time frame. Now I get what you guys might being saying well we have the M60 already from CW....You are right and they can still keep their M60 as it is! The M60A1 would offer a new "slim" turret with better frontal armor giving the tank great hull down properties (besides the tumor on top). would keep its good gun depression and with a better turret lay out a better ROF meaning a better DPM that the USA med's could use to be competitive with the current Medium Meta. Plus the M60 was designed to be the counter part to the T-62 while the M48 was deemed out classed a few years after it entered service, the 90mm was not even enough for the T-54/55 but still non the less its counter part being in service at the same time. 

 

Just for comparison for some who want to know what I am talking about between the M60 and M60A1

 

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The reasons for the reconfiguration as stated by Legiondude are as follow:

View PostLegiondude, on Sep 11 2015 - 22:55, said:

That half of the proposal is actually quoted from me(as is the gun listing prior), it's a mix of several objectives:

1. Having The M26 represent WWII era iterations

2. Supporting the existence of the M46E1 in the tree

3. Having a connection between the M26 and M48 that isn't a sudden jump, while....

4. Retaining the M47 for future use elsewhere, either in the US tree or in a foreign tech tree(i.e. Italy)

 

As well as 

View PostLegiondude, on Sep 08 2015 - 20:04, said:

Well that's the point of the down tiering proposal and rebalancing the Patton's guns. So not only would you have a gun with better pen at tier 8, but you'd enter the tier 9 grind with that same gun better than the current situation and grind to an even more powerful 105mm

 

That is just a few arguments, I know there are a lot of people who like thier T-20, M26, and M46 in game they are good but for a compettive tier X medium for the American tree things need to be changed, the M48 as stated above is out classed in many ways.

 

Now with the M60A1 and the rework the 2nd tree should be added as well. This tree would bring incarnations of tanks that were taken out of the orginall tree (T20 and top M46 configuaration). I have a feeling this tree would be more about better mobility and bigger guns, well at end tier with the 120mm T123 on the T95E9

 

Tier 6: T20

Tier 7: T25

Tier 8: T42

Tier 9: T95E3/E7

Tier 10: T95E9

 

The T-42 would be a bit more agile and faster then the M46 with the addition of the slim turret as well and a better 90mm selection for tier VIII

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The T95E3/E7 would be a great tier IX the end configuartion of either or mixing the two together for turret upgrade ect. 

 -T95E3 – Turret from the T54E2, 105mm T140 rifled gun

 -T95E7 – A T95E1 with a 105mm T254

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T95E9 would be just like the T95E6 but different engine so really almost identical but CW would get their special tank and name still.

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Here is another good quote the other threads. Just to put it in perspective a bit.

 

View PostPahech, on Sep 07 2015 - 10:41, said:

The US line had nothing new added to it since the light tanks (which Germany/USSR, the other 2 main trees, also received), and before that...the T57 line, in patch 8.2.  During that period between now and patch 8.2, the USSR received the 263 line (4 TDs) and the 430 lines (8 mediums/lights, including the T60-80), the light line (3 tanks), 2 arty from the arty change and a whole slew of premiums and reward tanks that I lose track of, the Germans got the Waffle line (6 TDs) and the Leopard 1 (3 tanks) lines, 2 light tanks, 4 arty from the arty change, various random additions in lower tiers, some premiums and reward tanks.  The British got the 183 (11 TDs) and the 4005 lines (11 tanks) , the Conq GC line (10 SPGs), the French the AMX 30 (6 tanks with 4 lower tier ones), 2 SPGs from the arty change, and some prems, Chinese got all their tanks sans type 62 and 59(18 regular tanks and 3 premiums), and the Japanese got all their tanks (23 regular tanks + 4 prem/reward).  The Czechs will have their tanks soon enough too, getting 10 tanks+1 premium.  Since patch 8.2, I think the US got a total of 3 light tanks, 2 arty, and some reward tanks (M60, T23E3, T28C, T7 Combat car), and 1 premium tank in the fury.  That's it.  For a "main" tech tree, that's ludicrously bad.  Patch 8.2 is at the end of 2012, early 2013.  That's almost 3 years ago!  5 bloody regular line US tanks, in 3 bloody years, with nothing in sight.

 

The Idea here guys is start conversation about the current depressing state of the American medium tanks. For a tree that is one of the three original and I feel big trees compared to the other trees this one lacks the most.

 

Thanks for reading guys hope we can get contributions here to add constructive reasons why such an over haul is needed :D


 

Option 2: Slight Rework

This one may be unpopular with some players at first but bear with me here for a sec before you freak out.

-Remove the M46 Patton to a tier 8 premium to replace the Super Pershing in the shop (The Super P will be taken out of the shop some point due to preferred match making and needs a replacement) 

-Bump down the M48 Patton

- M60A1 as new tier X medium. 

 

 

M46E1 Patton: tier VIII American Premium Medium tank

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Hit Points: 1450

       Gun: 90mm T119E1(219/275/45) VIII 

 Turret: M46E1 (101/63/76) IX

                   Engine: Continental AV-1790-5 (810 hp) IX

  Tracks: T80E1/E4 (38 deg/sec) VIII

Radio: SCR 528 (745m) X

 

Now with the M48 bumping down to tier 9 now there would need to be a slight rework and added 

 

M48A1 Patton: tier IX American Medium Tank

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Hit Points: 1700

             Gun(s) :   90mm M41 (219/275/45)VIII

                             105mm M68 (268/330/53) X

Turret(s): M48(177/76/50) VIII

                         M48A3 Turret upgrades IX

                            Engine(s):Continental AV-1790-5B (810 HP) VIII

                                        Continental AV-1790-6 (810 HP) IX

Track: T97 (40 deg/sec)

               T97E2 (45 deg/sec)

     Radio: AN/GRC-3 (410m) VI

              AN/VRC-7 (745m) X 

 

M60A1: tier X American Medium tank

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(Player created skins for M60/M48 not real WG material)

 

Gun: M68 (268/330/105) X

   Turret: M60A1 (250/76/51) X

                             Engine: Continental AVDS-1790-2 (750 hp) X

Track: T97E3 (50 deg/sec) X

  Radio: AN/VRC-12 (745m) X

 

What does this option do? Well it will give the American tree a competitive medium at tier X with the M60A1. Rebalance the M48 to allow it to perform better in its tier. As well as create a Premium that would sell probably better then the Super P being that they will need a replacement to be sold in the shop anyway at some point. As well as depending on how WG handles the FV4202 swap and free premium tank a similar thing could be done for people who already have the tank.

 

Like- The player must have the M46 (or M48A1) unlocked and owned when the patch hits. Then they are given a mission to do X amount of different objectives or something, being semi-difficult and time consuming, given a month or so to achieve them all, once completed a free M46E1 Patton premium in their garage to play and now train the M60A1 crew on :D


 

Option 3: Mini Branch to M60A1!

 

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Tier VIII: T42 Medium tank

 

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The  T42 would have about 2 modules in each category maybe a 3rd radio to allow more grinding to do. Other wise information is available out there and the hull is currently in game. The T69 was based off the T42 hull!

 

Tier IX: XM60 medium tank

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XM60 as a tier 9 - M48A2 turret for the stock turret, with the 90mm T42 stock gun (current stock gun on the M48 right now!). Then upgrades to the T95E6 turret THEN to the 105mm T254 and 105mm M68 so 2 upgrades for the gun. Would need to get turret before guns to prevent a M60(A0) reincarnation at tier 9. Other upgrades will be added as information is found, a few engines I believe were tested along with maybe an upgraded T97 track thrown on.

 

(from Hunnitcutt Patton Pg. 153 -154)

(T95E6 turret reference pg. 156)

 

There is the option to do a T54E2  instead of the XM60 and have, stock turret would be the T54E2 turret then unlock of the XM66 D turret along with the same guns as mentioned above but now adding in the 152mm derp gun.. Or XM66 D turret have the be the stock turret on the XM60 (though unhistorical) 

 

 

Tier X: M60A1 medium tank

 

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Option 4: Filling in the gap

 

Tier IV: T6 Medium tank

  •   An alternative to the M3 Lee to go to the M4 Sherman as both would lead to the M4 though.

 

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Guns

  • 37mm M6
  • 75mm M2
  • British 6 Pounder (Planned & possible)

Turrets

  • T6 w/cupola turret
  • T6 final design.

Engines

  • Wright R975 EC2
  • Wright G100 (Room for later on)
  • Wright G200 (Room for later on)

Radios

  • SCR 506
  • SCR 508
  • SCR 245

Tracks

  • VVSS T42
  • VVSS T48

 

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Tier VII: T23 Medium tank

  • Yes the T23 that was removed now as a tier 7 nerfed slightly from its tier 8 days and reworked to fill the roll of a tier 7!

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Guns

  • 76mm M1A1
  • 76mm M1A2
  • 90mm M3 (possible)

Turrets

  • T23
  • T23E4
  • T25 (possible)

Engines

  • Ford GAA (possible stock)
  • Ford GAN

Radios

  • SCR 508
  • SCR 528

Tracks

  • VVSS
  • HVSS

 

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(T23E4 w/ HVSS)

 

Tier VIII: T42 Medium tank

  • Alternative to the Pershing could also lead to the M46 with the turret being that last for the M46. Other that keeps going down the new branch.

 

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Gun

  • 90mm M3 Late
  • 90mm T119
  • 90mm T119E1

Turret

  • T42 (concept)
  • T42

Engine

  • Wight R-975C4
  • Continental AOS-895-3
  • Continental AOSI-895-5

Tracks

  • T84E1
  • T95

Radio

  • AN/GRC-3
  • AN/GRC-8

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Tier IX: T54E2 Medium tank

  • T54E2 pretty basic.

 

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Gun

  • 90mm M41 (Possible stock)
  • 105mmT140E3

Turret

  • T54E2

Engine

  • Continental AV-1790-1
  • Continental AV-1790-5B

Tracks

  • T96
  • T97

Radio

  • AN/GRC-3
  • AN/GRC-8

 

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(T54E2)

 

 

Tier X: M60A1 medium tank

  • Once again the big bad kid for the US that should be all matters in the game to fit with other 1960's MBT like tanks.

 

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Gun

  • 105mm  M68

Turret

  • M60A1

Engine

  • Continental AVDS-1790-2

Track

  • T97E3

Radio

  • AN/VRC-12

 

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Thank you

  -Ck16

 

 

 


Edited by CK16, Feb 06 2016 - 09:11.


US_3rd_Army #2 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 19:47

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While you did give a nice read OP, here are some of my thoughts on the idea of changes that could be done with the American medium line:

Tier 8: Still the Pershing but instead of the upgraded turret it gets now, give it the stock turret the M46 Patton has and also add in some smaller items like engines and suspension to the Pershing

Tier 9 M48 Patton by bumping it down and removing the M46 Patton while giving some of its equipment to the Pershing. the guns stay as is but change some of the stats on the top gun to reflect that it has been bumped down a tier

Tier 10: M60A1 

 

If reworking that line is not a possibility, at the Pershing you add a split off from there with the tier 9 being the M47 Patton and have the M60A1 Patton there

 



tinytintin #3 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 19:56

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Well, T20 currently is 1 of the best tier 7 tank. M26 Pershing is the BEST tier 8 med in the game. M46 Patton is the BEST tier 9 med in the game. All are my favorite tanks, please don't touch any of them.

 

 



Life_In_Black #4 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 20:04

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View Posttinytintin, on Sep 08 2015 - 14:56, said:

Well, T20 currently is 1 of the best tier 7 tank. M26 Pershing is the BEST tier 8 med in the game. M46 Patton is the BEST tier 9 med in the game. All are my favorite tanks, please don't touch any of them.

 

 

 

And yet all three of them are mostly unhistorical currently. The T20 is a combination of the T20, T22, T23, and T25, the M26 is a combination of the M26, Super Pershing, M45 Demolition Vehicle, and the M46 is a combination of the M46, the T42, and has an unhistorical 105mm gun it never had historically. All adjusting the line would do is make them more historical while keeping the same playstyle.

Slayer_Jesse #5 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 20:10

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Massive support. As for the T20, WG could make it a tier 6 prem with the 76. We lack a low tier us med prem now that Ram II is gone, Fury was a one time deal, and T23E3 was a CW rare that should also probably be tier 6.

 

Aslo, Rename M46 to M46/M47 to avoid confusion.

 

Here's hoping The Cheiftan can convince the home planet WG RU...


Edited by Slayer_Jesse, Sep 08 2015 - 20:21.


Colddawg #6 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 20:14

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I think the discussion needs to look at the modules in the game compared to their timeline in history as well as the tank.  The USA has always had the idea of making a good/great tank body and upgrading it instead of taking the time/money/manpower to create a whole new design.  Case in point, M4, M48, M60, M1 Abrams.

 

First we'll skip the components that don't have any module upgrades: suspension, turret, radio.  After that if we look at the different real life M48 variants we see that the M48A5 is very similar to the fully upgraded tier 10 tank, the only difference being the Continental engine variant (gas opposed to diesel).  Really the in game M48A1 fully upgraded is the M48A5 introduced in the mid 1970's.


Edited by Colddawg, Sep 08 2015 - 20:19.


WulfeHound #7 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 20:15

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The US tree definitely needs some love and rearranging

power_Donky #8 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 20:52

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Don't touch my t20. Also, I wish they would make the Patton grind easier, I mean come on, who wants to use the t20 gun at t9? I mean seriously that grind is so unbelievably bad without free exp, also they should give the m48 fully upgraded because nobody wants to play it with the patton's 105. It's good on the Patton, but on the m48 it's just a difficult grind.

Life_In_Black #9 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 21:03

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View Postpower_Donky, on Sep 08 2015 - 15:52, said:

Don't touch my t20. Also, I wish they would make the Patton grind easier, I mean come on, who wants to use the t20 gun at t9? I mean seriously that grind is so unbelievably bad without free exp, also they should give the m48 fully upgraded because nobody wants to play it with the patton's 105. It's good on the Patton, but on the m48 it's just a difficult grind.

 

The only things that would really change would be the name and the suspension type. It would be renamed to the T25 and given the torsion bar suspension, but that's about it. And by fixing the problems, there would not only be historical penetration for quite a few American guns, including the 90mm M36 and 90mm M41, but those redundant and useless grinding modules like that would also be eliminated.

Legiondude #10 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 21:04

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View Postpower_Donky, on Sep 08 2015 - 14:52, said:

Don't touch my t20. Also, I wish they would make the Patton grind easier, I mean come on, who wants to use the t20 gun at t9? I mean seriously that grind is so unbelievably bad without free exp, also they should give the m48 fully upgraded because nobody wants to play it with the patton's 105. It's good on the Patton, but on the m48 it's just a difficult grind.

Well that's the point of the downtiering proposal and rebalancing the Patton's guns. So not only would you have a gunner with better pen at tier 8, but you'd enter the tier 9 grind with that same gun better than the current situation and grind to an even more powerful 105mm



CK16 #11 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 23:09

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2nd tree condensed to top post, this original post is in spoiler not as relevant anymore but nice pictures! 

 

Spoiler

 

 


Edited by CK16, Sep 13 2015 - 07:01.


Life_In_Black #12 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 23:23

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Putting the T25 at tier 8 would require some unhistorical modules to make it work, as it's no different to the current T20 at tier 7. The best tier 8 candidate is the T42 as it's where the elite turret for the current M46 comes from, only it's much lighter, which could lead into a T95 variant at tier 9, and a T95 variant at tier 10. So the tech tree would look like this:

 

Tier 6:     M4A3E8       T20

Tier 7:     M26              T25

Tier 8:     M46              T42

Tier 9:     M48              T95E3/E7

Tier 10:   M60A1          T95E9



CK16 #13 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 23:28

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 08 2015 - 22:23, said:

Putting the T25 at tier 8 would require some unhistorical modules to make it work, as it's no different to the current T20 at tier 7. The best tier 8 candidate is the T42 as it's where the elite turret for the current M46 comes from, only it's much lighter, which could lead into a T95 variant at tier 9, and a T95 variant at tier 10. So the tech tree would look like this:

 

Tier 6:     M4A3E8       T20

Tier 7:     M26              T25

Tier 8:     M46              T42

Tier 9:     M48              T95E3/E7

Tier 10:   M60A1          T95E9

 

Good catch sorry I agree yours is much better haha! And the T54E2 with the 120 as much would be nice to lead into the T95E9 well...we already have that combo don't we in a reward tank -.- lol

Life_In_Black #14 Posted Sep 08 2015 - 23:39

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View PostCK16, on Sep 08 2015 - 18:28, said:

 

Good catch sorry I agree yours is much better haha! And the T54E2 with the 120 as much would be nice to lead into the T95E9 well...we already have that combo don't we in a reward tank -.- lol

 

There's a lot of redundancy involved with the M48, T54, and T95, as the T54 used the M48 chassis while the T95 used both T54 and M48 turrets. There was also a T96 turret that ended up becoming the turret for the M60A1, but I digress. In any event, since we already have the T54E1 in-game, and since we lack a T95 in the tech tree itself, the T54 is better represented with the T95s. That being said, given the T54 and T54E2, as well as the M60A2, its direct predecessor, the XM66 D turret (itself a modified T54 turret mounting a 152mm gun/launcher and trialed on the M48, M60, and T95), and the fact the US contemplated rearming the M60A2 in 1971 with a variety of cannons including the 105mm M68, the 152mm XM150, the 120mm T123E6, and the British 120mm L11A2, the US definitely has room for multiple tier 9 and 10 mediums. So the T54E2 120 isn't really missed by being a premium, all things considered.

CK16 #15 Posted Sep 09 2015 - 00:21

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Good point. As well with the T42 almost like the current 46/47 thay could be a great tier 8. What about possible tanks thay would bridge the gap say like the M47 Patton?

Legiondude #16 Posted Sep 09 2015 - 00:25

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View PostCK16, on Sep 08 2015 - 18:21, said:

Good point. As well with the T42 almost like the current 46/47

The current tier 9 is M46/M46E1



CK16 #17 Posted Sep 09 2015 - 00:25

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View PostLegiondude, on Sep 08 2015 - 23:25, said:

The current tier 9 is M46/M46E1

 

oh sorry my bad maybe it is about time they add the M47 then as well?

Legiondude #18 Posted Sep 09 2015 - 00:29

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View PostCK16, on Sep 08 2015 - 18:25, said:

 

oh sorry my bad maybe it is about time they add the M47 then as well?

It's kind of set aside for the Italian tree



CK16 #19 Posted Sep 09 2015 - 00:39

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View PostLegiondude, on Sep 08 2015 - 23:29, said:

It's kind of set aside for the Italian tree

 

Alright never mind then haha. What tier they going to have it? I mean there are a few a few American meds that could be used as premiums for other countries as well. West Germany had M48's along with South Korea? Along with other tanks like the  M41 for Japan and W. Germany?

 

Eh anyway back on topic! I have a feeling the best way to get this up on the front page for WG to see and think about is we need support from The_Chieftain and him yo back is up. Anyone got his number? Lol

 

 


Edited by CK16, Sep 09 2015 - 02:47.


af19 #20 Posted Sep 09 2015 - 02:32

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Who needs accuracy when WG is at helm?




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