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Grille 15, the WTE-100 replacement.

Waffe Grille Gurrrrmooon staaaahhhlll

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4GOD #61 Posted Oct 26 2015 - 19:52

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View PostPahech, on Oct 26 2015 - 10:00, said:

You guys are crazy.  This thing is basically a medium tank with a 750 alpha stick on it.  And it's bad?

 

What.

 

Yes its bad because its gun is inferior to tier IX tank destroyers and all tier Xs. The pen of other tier X TDs is 290-310, so it's 20-40 points lower than it should be. The speed isnt that relevant since you'll have to stop and camp in order to fire and get a camo bonus. Since your armor is butter, you cannot trade shots or risk being spotted.

jdubthegreat #62 Posted Oct 26 2015 - 19:58

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That 45 degree turret limit is a bummer.  It's gonna make everything a lot more awkward for this tank.

Echo_Saber #63 Posted Oct 26 2015 - 20:26

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View Post4GOD, on Oct 26 2015 - 13:52, said:

 

Yes its bad because its gun is inferior to tier IX tank destroyers and all tier Xs. The pen of other tier X TDs is 290-310, so it's 20-40 points lower than it should be. The speed isnt that relevant since you'll have to stop and camp in order to fire and get a camo bonus. Since your armor is butter, you cannot trade shots or risk being spotted.

 

But it doesn't matter because you've got the most accurate gun in the game with acceptable soft stats and one of the best DPMs of the Tier X TDs.

Kain_Aegis #64 Posted Oct 26 2015 - 20:27

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My only complaints about this tank are mainly the horrid look and the non-360 degree turret.  I have very little faith in good camo for this tank, which is going to make that long aim time very painful.  DPM is not going to be very high in practice unless you're fighting someone who is going to sit there and wait for their own reload like an idiot.  Yes, you will probably get that first shot off, but any decent player is going to find cover before you get another shot off.

 

The low pen isn't too much a dealbreaker because I should be able to place weakpoint shots regularly with that accuracy (maybe even HE weakpoint shots).



lbgsloan #65 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 00:34

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Pretty sure this thing would tip over if it tried to fire.

4GOD #66 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 05:21

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View PostKain_Aegis, on Oct 26 2015 - 14:27, said:

 

The low pen isn't too much a dealbreaker because I should be able to place weakpoint shots regularly with that accuracy (maybe even HE weakpoint shots).

 

Riiight. so now the unarmored td has to rely on being able to accurately place a shot at long range in order to be effective. What happens if you're facing a tank that's hull down? At least the other tier Xs can pen in some case a turret. not so the waffle.

 

Imagine how awful the Scorpion would be with a 150 pen gun. Now you understand why the wawful needs a pen buff.


Edited by 4GOD, Oct 27 2015 - 05:22.


teamoldmill #67 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 12:57

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Sniping was killed long, long ago. Just look at the unarmored sniper tanks, namely the 2nd German TD line to see how well they are doing. Worst in the game.

 

Grow up. Brawl or die.



PlaidPony #68 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 13:14

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View Postteamoldmill, on Oct 27 2015 - 11:57, said:

Sniping was killed long, long ago. Just look at the unarmored sniper tanks, namely the 2nd German TD line to see how well they are doing. Worst in the game.

 

Grow up. Brawl or die.

 

"Well balanced" suddenly transforms in to "worst in the game" when you sustain too many concussions and begin thinking like a German tank fanboy.

teamoldmill #69 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 15:08

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View PostPlaidPony, on Oct 27 2015 - 12:14, said:

 

"Well balanced" suddenly transforms in to "worst in the game" when you sustain too many concussions and begin thinking like a German tank fanboy.

 

Statistics, try looking at them.

 

They are statistically the worst tank line in the game.

 

Try taking your head out of WG's bottom for once, fanboy. Data, how's it work?


Edited by teamoldmill, Oct 27 2015 - 15:09.


PlaidPony #70 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 15:34

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View Postteamoldmill, on Oct 27 2015 - 14:08, said:

 

Statistics, try looking at them.

 

They are statistically the worst tank line in the game.

 

Try taking your head out of WG's bottom for once, fanboy. Data, how's it work?

 

I did look at them, friend. I deal in fact, not opinion.



4GOD #71 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 17:15

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View Postteamoldmill, on Oct 27 2015 - 06:57, said:

Sniping was killed long, long ago. Just look at the unarmored sniper tanks, namely the 2nd German TD line to see how well they are doing. Worst in the game.

 

Grow up. Brawl or die.

 

According to vbaddict, the WT-Rhm is the second highest damage output of any tier 8 TD (Charioteer is #1) At tier 9, the WT4 is #4 out of 9. At tier 7, The Sturer Emil is #9 out of 15. At tier 6, the Nashorn is #6 out of 11. At tier 5, the Pz Sfl IV is #7 out of 10. At tier 4, the Marder 38t is #3 out of 8.  It would be more accurate to say that the German thin skinned TDs are averageish.

1nv4d3rZ1m #72 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 17:29

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View Post4GOD, on Oct 27 2015 - 08:15, said:

 

According to vbaddict, the WT-Rhm is the second highest damage output of any tier 8 TD (Charioteer is #1) At tier 9, the WT4 is #4 out of 9. At tier 7, The Sturer Emil is #9 out of 15. At tier 6, the Nashorn is #6 out of 11. At tier 5, the Pz Sfl IV is #7 out of 10. At tier 4, the Marder 38t is #3 out of 8.  It would be more accurate to say that the German thin skinned TDs are averageish.

 

Apparently you are not familiar with Teamoldmill and his "win rate is the only thing that matters" deal.

4GOD #73 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 17:54

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Usually people who do lots of damage have a higher win rate. in any case, most clans recruit by WN8 regardless of what teamoldmill believes.

Pahech #74 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 18:28

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View Post4GOD, on Oct 26 2015 - 10:52, said:

 

Yes its bad because its gun is inferior to tier IX tank destroyers and all tier Xs. The pen of other tier X TDs is 290-310, so it's 20-40 points lower than it should be. The speed isnt that relevant since you'll have to stop and camp in order to fire and get a camo bonus. Since your armor is butter, you cannot trade shots or risk being spotted.

 

No it's not.  If pen is all it matters, then clearly the JPE-100 is the best TD in the game!  And the Obj. 268 is amazing!  Oh wait.  Not to mention penetration will get a wholesale nerf in the future anyways, making the relative pen of this TD better once the change is in place.

 

Seriously, when you succeed the most with clicking and your worst tanks are mobility-base vehicles, you have no right to comment on the advantage of speed, because clearly you can't really take advantage of it.  Camo shouldn't be relied on more than fleeting tactical advantages.  When you have speed, you abuse crossfire positions and reloads, and to take advantage of isolated tanks and undefended flanks.  That's all that is to it.

 

The standard play with this thing would be to do 2 things in early game.  You can go with the mediums to contest medium-areas (obviously, mediums+TD >> only mediums), get a huge map control advantage, and then proceed to support the pushes in mid-game, and hopefully last long enough to mop up in which your excellent mobility will once again shine.  Alternatively, you play camo-TD early  on and lock down avenues of approach, and use your excellent mobility to maintain distance from the enemy in mid-game.  Hopefully your allies will have mopped up another flank, and you can proceed to finish off opposing stragglers, again using your speed to do so.

 

Also, you can't trade shots?  If there's a Russian medium in front of you, you're not going to trade 320 of your HP for 750 of theirs?  Really?  No wonder I see so many goddamn full HP TDs cowering against mediums holding a corner, because they can't "take a shot", whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

In any case, the only real drawback of the Grille 15 right now is the limited turret traverse and HE-vulnerable armor.  Really, it's just a Waffle PzIV on steroids, and the Waffle PzIV is a pretty good TD.



4GOD #75 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 18:44

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Sigh. In case you haven't notice the Wawful has armor class tin foil. Which means you have to play the range game to avoid being spotted. all this talk about following the mediums, etc, ignores the fact that if you cant find cover, you are going to be killed very quickly.

 

The Wawful does not have a full turret,meaning you cant do the peek pokey thing around a rock, although Ill have to test it once its out to be sure.

 

A TD that has to rely on shooting the enemy in the sides has severe tactical limitations. The Scorpion at least has enough pen to punch through the front of a tank. The Wawful will either have to hit the lower plate or get a lucky shot at long range.

 

Look at it another way. if the Scorpion had a low pen how well would it do? Answer: it would suck. So claiming the higher tier Wawful would magically be a great tank because it can run around the map (the Scorp is pretty mobile) is just nonsense, especially considering WG is getting rid of open maps and moving ot the corridor model, where thin skinned TDs are going to have a real hard time.

 

Nerfing the pen won't happen because it will totally screw up the game with howls of player protest. WGs real motive in wanting to make pen nerfs is to force people to spend more money on gold rounds. It has nothing to do with play balance.

 

 

Finally, how well a unicum can play a tank is not relevant to whether a tank is balance or not. What matters is how the tank does, on average for the average player.  All tanks of a type within a tier should be fairly close to one another in terms of average damage output.  if it is not, then it is unbalanced.

 

Since Wawful is not yet out in the general field, there are not stats to measure it by. I doubt, however, that it will do as well as the WT-E100, but I am willing to at least try the tank out and see how it works for me.

 

 

 


Edited by 4GOD, Oct 27 2015 - 18:55.


PlaidPony #76 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 19:03

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You can tell power creep is real because 270 pen is considered low nowadays.

Pahech #77 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 19:13

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View Post4GOD, on Oct 27 2015 - 09:44, said:

Sigh. In case you haven't notice the Wawful has armor class tin foil. Which means you have to play the range game to avoid being spotted. all this talk about following the mediums, etc, ignores the fact that if you cant find cover, you are going to be killed very quickly.

 

The Wawful does not have a full turret,meaning you cant do the peek pokey thing around a rock, although Ill have to test it once its out to be sure.

 

A TD that has to rely on shooting the enemy in the sides has severe tactical limitations. The Scorpion at least has enough pen to punch through the front of a tank. The Wawful will either have to hit the lower plate or get a lucky shot at long range.

 

Look at it another way. if the Scorpion had a low pen how well would it do? Answer: it would suck. So claiming the higher tier Wawful would magically be a great tank because it can run around the map (the Scorp is pretty mobile) is just nonsense, especially considering WG is getting rid of open maps and moving ot the corridor model, where thin skinned TDs are going to have a real hard time.

 

Nerfing the pen won't happen because it will totally screw up the game with howls of player protest. WGs real motive in wanting to make pen nerfs is to force people to spend more money on gold rounds. It has nothing to do with play balance.

 

 

 

 

When you make stupid names like that, it shows your inherent bias already.  No one calls it Wawful.  It's the Grille 15, before any significant nicknames come out which people adopt.

 

You can definitely follow mediums.  I don't see how you will be killed very quickly unless you're stupid.  Say, Karelia hill.  You and 2 mediums went to the Karelia hill.  Opposing you are 2 mediums, and because MM gave them a slow TD to balance you out, you have a 3vs2 advantage, and you have a 750 alpha blast stick.  Hill quickly gained, map control secured.  You're free to rain down on hapless heavies in the bottom of valley, or across the swarm at your leisure.  The only threat is arty, which is always a threat regardless of tank, especially if you're aggressive like that.  In reality vs. tank, your armor does not make you any less vulnerable compared to the likes of Batchat, Leopard, and AMX 30B.

 

I can punch through the front of any tank with any heavy tank, and it has higher pen than any heavy tanks.  If you want to make your TD shots count, you should STILL aim for weak points on heavies, or you would have lots of fun bouncing off heavy UFPs even if you're firing HEAT with a JPE-100.  270/334 is enough for most things, you know, especially considering you DO have the speed to get flank shots.  270 pen is also the par standard for tier 9 TDs (ranges from 257-286 AP), and I never heard of tier 9 TDs having issue with penning tier 10 tanks.  >_>  It's certain a small negative to the tank, but to say it is tank-breaking is ridiculous.

 

The Scorpion sucks because it has terrible gun handling, gimped top speed, and mediocre alpha/DPM.  Come back and make the comparison when the Grille 15 has 40ish top speed, FV4005-like bloom, fire as fast as a E4, and mid-500 alpha - and the only thing it gets back is 300 pen.  Or make the comparison when the Scorpion flies at 60km/h, 320 alpha, and E-25 like DPM, good bloom, and it's only draw back is 185 pen.

 

Nerfing pen through out is certainly in the works, how else why the upcoming high tier Czech tanks have low pen, this tank has low pen, the super test Chieftain has "only" 310 APCR (despite having a historically more powerful gun than the FV215B's 120mm), the Japanese heavies having low pen, etc?  Test beds.

 

 



Cheap_exe #78 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 19:13

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This tank looks awesome. Looks WG proved me wrong and the replacement might surpass the current waffle. I want eye emblems as well on each of its cheeks above where the gun rests on either side. Make it look more itimidating.:playing:

Elevendy #79 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 19:55

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JUST BUFF THE FOCH 155 AMD REMOVE THE WT E-100.

 

The 155 promoted aggressive line-breaking style gameplay, pushing forward stagnant engagements. The waffle promotes this camping holding flank type style, only punishing players who want to progress the game.

 

But you know, this game has already gone down the toilet, and is the exact reason why I don't play anymore.

 

No point.



Tupinambis #80 Posted Oct 27 2015 - 21:46

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So this thing already got one Hell of a buff:

 

http://thearmoredpat...ille-15-buffed/

 

The basic highlights are: Aim time buffed from 2.68 to 1.88

Accuracy is 0.242

DPM now exceeds 3800

Has slightly better pen than the Jagdtiger and T95/T30

Also a 468m view range.... which I guess means everything within a 425m radius of it will be auto-detected.

 

Also some marginal changes to mobility.

 

 

EDIT: I might have jumped the gun on this one. Trying to find confirmation/clarification on these figures.


Edited by Tupinambis, Oct 27 2015 - 21:48.





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