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_PoliticallyIncorrect #41 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:38

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 04:27, said:

 

Indeed. And thanks for pointing that out.

 

For those who are simply grunting "How can someone who did 5,515 points lose a game?" please, again, read the OP. Read it and visualize the game that I described. I explained in detail how an event can snowball out of control.

 


Bro. No one is saying "How can someone who did 5.5K damage lose a game". Most of us are saying, if you did LESS to contribute than said Unicum who did 60% of the combined team damage, than you have no right to complain about the unicum not carrying your dead weight hard enough. You did 150 damage dude, in a T-44. You are more to blame for the loss than he is. Thats the point most of us are trying to make.


Edited by DJYC21215, Feb 20 2016 - 10:45.


Vanagandr #42 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:39

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Today I learned that people call anything under 2800 unicum. #makeUnicums2800Again

uMadXD #43 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:40

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 02:30, said:

 

Actually, what is interesting is that the winning team had a "tomato" who is a 46 winrate player in the exact same tank, a 113 as the subject who was the top player on the enemy team. The difference is that "tomato" played as a teammate with his fellow tankers, and attacked at the key point in the battle, the southern choke point and pushed to cap, and pushed past.

 

Our unicum, on the other hand, made 3 vital mistakes as mentioned. He farmed damage on a bunch of Tier 8s, only killing two mind you, and was not at the key point of the battle. It is a wonderful example of what can go wrong when you should win.

 

Or could it be that he just so happened to be at the right place at the right time? I know numbers might be a little hard to understand, but when someone wins 60% of his games and the other wins 48%(going by recent), then clearly the former is more capable of and has been carrying more games than the latter.

Scorpiany charged at the enemy base. So did the other 113. What makes you think the other 113 would defend if it was in Scorpiany's situation?

Scorpiany gave a valid reason for why he didn't go back to defend. There were many teammates around base and he expected those teammates to actually be able to do something. The only mistake Scorpiany made was being silly enough to think pubbies can do anything.

 

The truth of the matter is:

-Scorpiany did 2x more than the rest of the team combined.

-Only dmg you did was from getting rammed.

-You're complaining that Scorpiany "threw away the game."

Let that sink in for a while.


Edited by uMadXD, Feb 20 2016 - 10:42.


Donward #44 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:47

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View PostDJYC21215, on Feb 20 2016 - 01:38, said:


Bro. No one is saying "How can someone who did 5.5K damage lose a game". Most of us are saying, if you did LESS to contribute than said Unicum who did 40% of the combined team damage, than you have no right to complain about the unicum not carrying your dead weight hard enough. You did 150 damage dude, in a T-44. You are more to blame for the loss than he is. Thats the point most of us are trying to make.

 

And as I've conveniently explained, this was a mismatch game with ten Tier 8 tanks, many of them rentals, in the match and a pair of Tier Xs aside. If you are in a Tier X 113, you'd have to be a terrible player to not get damage as evidenced by the enemy 113 being a historical 46 winrate player. But he got his damage at the key part of the game and worked with his teammates to rush and blitz a handful of ash-and-trash Tier 8 players.

 

Yep, I got 150 points despite being in the right place at the right time. The T-44 isn't going to do much against a Tier X 113 and an IS-7, not at close range and not when they are also backed up by several more tanks. I was terrible. 

 

But again, I went back to the base to reset and was there before the enemy team. What was unfortunate was that our Top Tier 113 rather than supporting the defense, chose to go solo instead. In the proper scenario, I would be spotting the enemy, peeking and rolling, while my teammates and one of our two Tier 10s mind you either sniped the enemy cappers or brawled with them up close. Instead, that help wasn't forthcoming and the enemy, playing as a team despite being inferior players, rolled my squad with the "Unicum".

 

So yes, I get to point out a mistake when mistake is made. More important, I have outlined a very good discussion on what is more important to individuals. Playing to win, or farming damage. It seems that I know many of you would rather farm damage than win.

 



Donward #45 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:50

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View PostuMadXD, on Feb 20 2016 - 01:40, said:

 

Or could it be that he just so happened to be at the right place at the right time? I know numbers might be a little hard to understand, but when someone wins 60% of his games and the other wins 48%(going by recent), then clearly the former is more capable of and has been carrying more games than the latter.

Scorpiany charged at the enemy base. So did the other 113. What makes you think the other 113 would defend if it was in Scorpiany's situation?

Scorpiany gave a valid reason for why he didn't go back to defend. There were many teammates around base and he expected those teammates to actually be able to do something. The only mistake Scorpiany made was being silly enough to think pubbies can do anything.

 

The truth of the matter is:

-Scorpiany did 2x more than the rest of the team combined.

-Only dmg you did was from getting rammed.

-You're complaining that Scorpiany "threw away the game."

Let that sink in for a while.

Did he go to the south choke point to start? No.

Did he flex to defend the choke point when it fell? No.

Did he reset the cap? No.

Did he drive towards the enemy base in order to farm Tier 8 damage in a Tier 10 tank when there were only a pair of Tier X tanks and 10 Tier 8s on the team? Yes.

 

Are those numbers clear enough?

View PostVanagandr, on Feb 20 2016 - 01:39, said:

Today I learned that people call anything under 2800 unicum. #makeUnicums2800Again

 

Yeah, I agree. The Unicums of 2011 were a lot better than the current lot.



uMadXD #46 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:51

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Well you were saying earlier that Scorpiany did 5k because the enemy team had a lot of tier 8s.

But now you're saying you did bad because the enemy team had a lot of tier 10s, even though you're on the same team as Scorpiany,

You aren't making sense.

 

View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 02:50, said:

Did he go to the south choke point to start? No.

Did he flex to defend the choke point when it fell? No.

Did he reset the cap? No.

Did he drive towards the enemy base in order to farm Tier 8 damage in a Tier 10 tank when there were only a pair of Tier X tanks and 10 Tier 8s on the team? Yes.

 

Are those numbers clear enough?

 

Yeah, I agree. The Unicums of 2011 were a lot better than the current lot.

 

Did you do 1 or more shot of damage? No.

Do you have the right to complain? No.

Are you complaining? Yes.

 

You aren't even teal, why are you judging unicums? Like seriously tf?


Edited by uMadXD, Feb 20 2016 - 10:58.


Batlin #47 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:53

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View PostDonward, on Feb 19 2016 - 23:50, said:

Yeah, I agree. The Unicums of 2011 were a lot better than the current lot.

 

And green's used to be able to get a shot of damage off.

 



uMadXD #48 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 10:55

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View PostBatlin, on Feb 20 2016 - 02:53, said:

 

And green's used to be able to get a shot of damage off.

 

 

Ouch.

_PoliticallyIncorrect #49 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:00

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 04:47, said:

 

And as I've conveniently explained, this was a mismatch game with ten Tier 8 tanks, many of them rentals, in the match and a pair of Tier Xs aside. If you are in a Tier X 113, you'd have to be a terrible player to not get damage as evidenced by the enemy 113 being a historical 46 winrate player. But he got his damage at the key part of the game and worked with his teammates to rush and blitz a handful of ash-and-trash Tier 8 players.

 

Yep, I got 150 points despite being in the right place at the right time. The T-44 isn't going to do much against a Tier X 113 and an IS-7, not at close range and not when they are also backed up by several more tanks. I was terrible. 

 

But again, I went back to the base to reset and was there before the enemy team. What was unfortunate was that our Top Tier 113 rather than supporting the defense, chose to go solo instead. In the proper scenario, I would be spotting the enemy, peeking and rolling, while my teammates and one of our two Tier 10s mind you either sniped the enemy cappers or brawled with them up close. Instead, that help wasn't forthcoming and the enemy, playing as a team despite being inferior players, rolled my squad with the "Unicum".

 

So yes, I get to point out a mistake when mistake is made. More important, I have outlined a very good discussion on what is more important to individuals. Playing to win, or farming damage. It seems that I know many of you would rather farm damage than win.

 

Again you completely missing the point. Or ignoring the point on purpose. You are blaming the guy who did the most to contribute to the team for the loss, when you did literally 0 to contribute to the match. Did you ever stop to think that maybe if you did just 1 or 2K damage that game that it MIGHT have turned into a win? Or hell, maybe if you got a kill. A lucky kill on one of the players that carried that match? Everyone's contribution means something. You may not think doing just 1 or 2K extra damage in a match, or getting at least one kill means anything, but combine 2K extra damage and a kill from you, to the 5K damage the uni farmed off the baddies. That would have been a much better scenario for winning than you doing 150 points of ramming damage (to a tank that probably contributed zero like you did anyways), then dying with zero real contribution. 

 



Donward #50 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:00

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View PostuMadXD, on Feb 20 2016 - 01:51, said:

Well you were saying earlier that Scorpiany did 5k because the enemy team had a lot of tier 8s.

But even though you're on the same team as Scorpiany, now you're saying you did bad because the enemy team had a lot of tier 10s.

You aren't making sense.

 

Reread the OP. Paint a visual image with your mind. We had about 2/3s of our team go north. We had 3 (mebbe 4) tanks go south. We had an arty. And I chose to go middle to keep an eye on things because the north didn't need any more folks and I hoped to light any enemy tanks that were in the middle. I wasn't happy doing this but somebody always has to watch middle on this map. I took a hit from the Bulldog but I spotted him and forced him to retreat. 

 

No other enemy tanks were in middle so I had zero shots attempted for zero damage. *shrug*

 

At this point the south choke point fell and we were down - if I recall - something like 1-3 or 1-4. It sucked but was still winnable. Clicked the map, went back to spot the cap and was bull rushed by the 113 and - if I recall - the IS-7. No chance to do hit point damage on them. So yeah, even though there were a "bunch of enemy Tier 8s", Arctic Zone, being a corridor map, the only enemy I ever had a chance of shooting were their Tier 10s. *shrug*.

 

As the damage figures already quoted can attest, the enemy top tier tanks also did a lot of damage carving up Tier 8 tanks. It was just that in their case, the damage was some place useful.



6VENOM6 #51 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:03

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Defense points helps WN8...  So if his goal was 'farming"  he would of went back.

Donward #52 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:05

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View PostDJYC21215, on Feb 20 2016 - 02:00, said:

Again you completely missing the point. Or ignoring the point on purpose. You are blaming the guy who did the most to contribute to the team for the loss, when you did literally 0 to contribute to the match. Did you ever stop to think that maybe if you did just 1 or 2K damage that game that it MIGHT have turned into a win? Or hell, maybe if you got a kill. A lucky kill on one of the players that carried that match? Everyone's contribution means something. You may not think doing just 1 or 2K extra damage in a match, or getting at least one kill means anything, but combine 2K extra damage and a kill from you, to the 5K damage the uni farmed off the baddies. That would have been a much better scenario for winning than you doing 150 points of ramming damage (to a tank that probably contributed zero like you did anyways), then dying with zero real contribution. 

 

 

You're missing the point of the post. How can a Unicum get 5,515 points of damage and still lose the game?

 

I've answered that question. 3 key mistakes were made. Not going the choke point. Not flexing to the open flank. And farming damage on the NW part of the map and heading to the enemy base instead of returning to reset the cap.

 

Yes, as crazy at it seems, a Tier X 113 can farm a lot of damage against Tier 8 tanks when it is driven by a "unicum". Shocking, I know. But does this matter when he ignores his base and allows the enemy to capture it while rolling his teammates?

 

It is the ultimate question of whether you'd rather win a game? Or would you rather farm a lot of damage.

 

It seems that many here would rather farm damage than win.

 

Which is an interesting point and why I'm glad that I made this post.



Amazing_Ace #53 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:08

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Both of you have 20k battles. This is just one of them, why make such a big deal? This happens all the time.


Edited by Amazing_Ace, Feb 20 2016 - 11:08.


Reiter #54 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:09

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 10:17, said:

View PostAbbathor, on Feb 20 2016 - 00:59, said:

I have to ask, do you expect one person to be all over the map at once? The team is what failed, most of them barely did a shot of damage yourself included. This game was lucky not to be a 15-0 or 15-1 roflstomp, and the only one who really stopped that was scorp

 

Actually, there were two things of major concern.

 

On the Arctic zone map, there is the choke point to the south where much of the fight traditionally occurs. This is where the heavies and TDs and high tier tanks normally brawl. This is usually the traditional focus point of the battle too. As I mentioned - and has been proven yet again - my version of the story was correct and we only had a handful of tanks go south. Three, maybe four as I recall. The preponderance went north.

 

So did I want the subject of this OP to be "everywhere on the battlefield"? No. He needed to be at only ONE part of the battlefield, the south choke point where - as has been mentioned - the enemy team's Tier X tanks were at.

 

 

 

Scrub here, saying hi! No, you are wrong.

 

Your first mistake is assuming someone else will be there to carry your butt across the finish line (I won't bother to try harder, cause its to stressful), second its better to assume that you do not have allies and it is green bots, third you know nothing how the other player is going to play because there is no strategy planning at count down and in the end his best chance was to carry to the enemy cap so you could reset it and the other tanks following him provided a few turned back.  You think his heavy should be duking it out? Looking at the stats, its nothing more then an over weight medium squeezed into a heavy line by WG and labeled with 3 /// stacked on top of each other, the sloped armor in the front is closer to a German slab armor heavy tank except for the turret and he has no worthwile depression....his best asset is MOBILITY which is what he did.  You think playing peak a boom around corners with crap side armor that was 120/90 mm flat (turret is curved, but that is thin vs any tier 8 tank) would of done anything vs any tier 9+  gun?


 

He did good, of 10 people who didn't even break 1k damage each he beat 10 people (3727) by doing 1.5 times their damage combined (the AX 13 90 is lumped in their, he did more damage then at least 6 of those 10).  Of the 4 others who broke 1k they equaled about the same as the other 10 (3728), yet again he did 1.5 times the damage of 4 other people who did better then 10 who did nothing.  The guy doing 5.5k damage CANNOT DO EVERYTHING!  That is the point, he had two options of either defeating the enemy to their cap or turning back to reset his base against over whelming numbers and looking at the numbers....it wouldn't of mattered any other way, the outcome was predictable unless YOU COULD DO BETTER. I take the approach myself, it isn't my job to do everything and I cannot do everything even when I should (a T-150 I am in should be at the tank alley on himmel, nope a stupid tier 5 medium tries to corner hump and instantly dies losing the position cause his wreck is in such a way I cannot shoot effectively)...it is a game and I could care less about stats, green allies are just cannon fodder and stat padding scouts unless the entire team is doing well.

 

 



_PoliticallyIncorrect #55 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:10

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 05:05, said:

 

You're missing the point of the post. How can a Unicum get 5,515 points of damage and still lose the game?

 

I've answered that question. 3 key mistakes were made. Not going the choke point. Not flexing to the open flank. And farming damage on the NW part of the map and heading to the enemy base instead of returning to reset the cap.

 

Yes, as crazy at it seems, a Tier X 113 can farm a lot of damage against Tier 8 tanks when it is driven by a "unicum". Shocking, I know. But does this matter when he ignores his base and allows the enemy to capture it while rolling his teammates?

 

It is the ultimate question of whether you'd rather win a game? Or would you rather farm a lot of damage.

 

It seems that many here would rather farm damage than win.

 

Which is an interesting point and why I'm glad that I made this post.

 

Farming damage seems like a more logical method of winning than dying while only doing 150 points of ramming damage.

Donward #56 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:10

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View Post6VENOM6, on Feb 20 2016 - 02:03, said:

Defense points helps WN8...  So if his goal was 'farming"  he would of went back.

 

Yep. It does. So why didn't he?

 

Ah, that is the heart of the question, now isn't it? 

 

Because there are hundreds of these sort of games. We've seen them posted here at the WoT forums. Screen shots of "How much more can I carry" and impressive battle stats with the OP scoring a bunch of damage. It is a defeat worthy of the Spartans.

 

But is that what really happened? I think there is a lot of apologizing here and an attempt to blame "the pubbies" and the "tomatoes" here on the forums. Which, frankly is what happens much of the time. But often times there is a subtler meaning behind a loss. And in this particular case. This one game out of the hundreds of thousands that have been played today. I think that I've done a good job at illustrating that thanks to the very unusual nature of this battle.



Batlin #57 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:11

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 00:05, said:

 

You're missing the point of the post. How can a Unicum get 5,515 points of damage and still lose the game?

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you're on the team? Or that no one outside of Scorp did their own HP in damage. Maybe......just maybe......an awful team is the reason why the game was a loss.

 

I've answered that question. 3 key mistakes were made.

I was allowed on the team.

The team was as useful as a screen-door on a submarine.

I'm to dumb to realize who's at fault for the loss.

 



Horribad_At_Tanks #58 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:14

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Unicums farm damage sometimes instead of going for the win as they typically have win rate to burn but wn8 must be maintained on a per game basis. Start sacrificing damage for an extra win or two and those precious purple numbers fall and the other unicums snicker behind your back. However in the op's case it was the unicum doing all the work as the rest of the team played hide the weenie.

Donward #59 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:22

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I agree Horribad. I've noticed "unicums" often are interested in the stats game and not WR.

Yep. Our team was horrible as was I. As I illustrated, the enemy attacked on mass at the key point of the battle led by their Top Tier tanks. Our tanks were out of position with the preponderance up north. Or south flank was turned and instead of everyone rushing back to base, they pushed to the enemy cap and we were slaughtered by ones and twos as Tier 8 tanks fell to Tier 10s.

Scorpiany #60 Posted Feb 20 2016 - 11:26

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View PostDonward, on Feb 20 2016 - 02:05, said:

 Shocking, I know. But does this matter when he ignores his base and allows the enemy to capture it while rolling his teammates?

 

Watched the replay, a few of the tanks which I thought were going south at the start of the match decided not to, and rather turtled at base. Please note, that me driving a 113 meant that I got to my position up north far before all those tanks were spotted down south... even then, I had to push through 5 different tanks where I was at, with minimal support...

 

 

 

Yes, yes, I'm bad at this game. I, not the rest of the team, was the fault of the base falling apart and losing. The fact that the entire team was right there next to base, 14 tanks, count them, couldn't defend the base, was my fault. Me, being the tank furthest ahead and in a position to keep pushing is what lost, not the 14 at base which could have maybe driven 150m to defend.

 

 







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