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Sense of Balance of Light Tanks


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LoCi_0g #1 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:21

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Why is the German Light Tank Spähpanzer SP I C rated VII while the French Light Tank AMX ELC bis rated V?

 

They where historically developed over the same years "developed by Hotchkiss and Klöckner-Humboldt-Deutz companies from 1956 through 1962" and "Developed from 1957 through 1961", respectively.

They have similar stats:

speed        58 km/hr   vs   65 km/hr

armor        10/10/10 || 15/10/10   vs   25/10/15 || 20/15/10   (hull || turret in mm)

Firepower  170/240, 250/240, 45/320<1.46m>   vs  170/240, 248/240, 45/320<1.46m>   (AP, HEAT/APCR, HE in mm/HP<blast radii&gt;)

Rate of Fire:Reload Time  7.59r/m:7.90s   vs   5.0r/m:12.0s

 

So, why is the French Light Tank rated TWO levels lower? 

This is a BIG advantage!

 

These two light tanks should be rated at the same level.



Lethalhavoc #2 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:22

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One has an autoloader with high burst alpha and the other one doesn't?

_Sergeant_Oddball_ #3 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:26

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Mar 01 2016 - 20:22, said:

One has an autoloader with high burst alpha and the other one doesn't?

 

One also has a full turret and much better aim time

saru_richard #4 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:27

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one has a true turret, the other doesn't

Strigonx #5 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:31

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There's the Leopard at tier V????

Haruhi_Suzumiya_ #6 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:50

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It just means one tank was ahead of their time and/or simply put, superior....

LoCi_0g #7 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 03:53

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VK 16.02 Leopard vs. AMX ELC bis

 

Leopard "the first prototype was built by September 1, 1942"  vs "Developed from 1957 through 1961" for AMX.

 

stats:

speed        60 km/hr   vs   65 km/hr

armor        50/30/30 || 50/30/30   vs   25/10/15 || 20/15/10   (hull || turret in mm)

Firepower  67/70, 130/70, 25/90<0.52m>   vs  170/240, 248/240, 45/320<1.46m>   (AP, APCR, HE in mm/HP<blast radii>

Rate of Fire:Reload Time 28.57r/m:2.10s   vs   5.0r/m:12.0s

 

Still the two original Light Tanks of the thread are from the same era and so similar, why should they be rated so very differently?



LoCi_0g #8 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:00

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Aim time

Spähpanzer SP I C is 2.50s while the French Light Tank AMX ELC bis has 2.90s

 

Yes, the SP I C has an option for an auto-loader, but that cannot be the sole reason for a two tier difference.



SchnitzeITruck #9 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:03

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What tier a tank belongs in has nothing to do with the date of its conception. This game would be horrifically imbalanced if it was.

 

The main reason why the Sp1c is tier7 is due to the combination of a turreted 90mm autoloader with 10 degrees of gun depression. At tier5 that would be absolutely overkill.

 

ELC is at tier5 because by design it is already shot in the foot. It does not have a full turret and is pretty much a tank destroyer with light tank matchmaking. Not a whole lot different than a tier6 TD. It works at tier5 because the gun is powerful enough to make up for not having a turret. If it were a tier7 it would be complete trash because a single shot 90mm is no longer special facing tier8-10 opponents


Edited by SchnitzeITruck, Mar 02 2016 - 04:16.


LoCi_0g #10 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:18

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I understand what you are saying, but at tier 5 it seams like an overkill compared to other tier 5 light tanks.

It will one shot many tier five. If it did not have the option of the 90mm, then I could see it as a tier 5.

The statement of the auto-loader as a separator for two tier difference does not seem to balance the 90mm the ELC has.

 

Imagine if a historic option was allowed in the game; that of the 75/55 taper bore cannon in late model pz III. Should it be tier 4?



SchnitzeITruck #11 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:19

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View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 02 2016 - 04:18, said:

I understand what you are saying, but at tier 5 it seams like an overkill compared to other tier 5 light tanks.

It will one shot many tier five. If it did not have the option of the 90mm, then I could see it as a tier 5.

The statement of the auto-loader as a separator for two tier difference does not seem to balance the 90mm the ELC has.

 

Imagine if a historic option was allowed in the game; that of the 75/55 taper bore cannon in late model pz III. Should it be tier 4?

.... I think you need to get a LOT more experience with this game before commenting on balance.

The bold passage screams that you dont understand what you are talking about.


Edited by SchnitzeITruck, Mar 02 2016 - 04:20.


uberdice #12 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:25

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View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 02 2016 - 13:18, said:

I understand what you are saying, but at tier 5 it seams like an overkill compared to other tier 5 light tanks.

It will one shot many tier five. If it did not have the option of the 90mm, then I could see it as a tier 5.

The statement of the auto-loader as a separator for two tier difference does not seem to balance the 90mm the ELC has.

 

Imagine if a historic option was allowed in the game; that of the 75/55 taper bore cannon in late model pz III. Should it be tier 4?

 

There's like.... 12 tanks at tier 5 that the ELC can one-shot. But they need max damage rolls on full HE penetrations to do the job.

 

There's only one tier 5 that can be one-shotted by the AP shell, and it's the LeFH - it still needs an above average roll for that to happen.



LoCi_0g #13 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:34

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I'm just looking at other light tanks of tier 5, and the AP/DAM are in favor of ELC; the ELC is effective against frontal armor of tier 5 heavies. I would agree it is more TD than Lt.

I am looking at my limited experience, and it is facing not tier 8+ but mix of tier 3 - 7. In these, it is a very powerful tank.



SchnitzeITruck #14 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 04:37

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View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 02 2016 - 04:34, said:

I'm just looking at other light tanks of tier 5, and the AP/DAM are in favor of ELC; the ELC is effective against frontal armor of tier 5 heavies. I would agree it is more TD than Lt.

I am looking at my limited experience, and it is facing not tier 8+ but mix of tier 3 - 7. In these, it is a very powerful tank.

Again, you need to learn more about the game before talking about balance.

 

ELC has scout matchmaking. It can never be toptier and it sees up to 3 tiers higher. It faces opponents ranging from tier4 to 8, mostly 6 through 8.


Edited by SchnitzeITruck, Mar 02 2016 - 04:40.


CAttack1 #15 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 05:12

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Well, as others have said, the SP 1C has an autoloader and much better gun stats, and the ELC has trashy gun stats.

 

However, the ELC is not a true scout - it's more like a TD.



uberdice #16 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 05:18

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View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 02 2016 - 13:34, said:

I'm just looking at other light tanks of tier 5, and the AP/DAM are in favor of ELC; the ELC is effective against frontal armor of tier 5 heavies. I would agree it is more TD than Lt.

I am looking at my limited experience, and it is facing not tier 8+ but mix of tier 3 - 7. In these, it is a very powerful tank.

 

ELC can't face tier 3s.

 

And the other LTs have an edge on it in sheer maneuverability, because the ELC bleeds speed incredibly quickly on turns and is barely able to reverse. It also has poorer view range than the others which is offset somewhat by the high camo rating, allowing it to get closer, but the fact is that it needs to get closer in order to fulfill its main role as a scout.

 

The gun handling is also absolute trash.

 

Get one yourself if you really want to see its limitations.



LoCi_0g #17 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 13:35

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Thanks for the help.

I needed to rethink WoT.

I need to remember that it is a Game first and foremost, not a wargame, and  not battle simulator.

My error, I have been doing micro-armor wargamming since the 70's.

Again thanks for the help.



Under_scored #18 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 14:06

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The SP1C at tier 5 would be awesome, 750 avg damage a clip? It could clip out all the tier 5 tanks and most tier 6s.

 

While the ELC has a powerful gun it has poor dpm and terrible accuracy. Really terrible accuracy. I get more long range snapshots with the KV 2 than a ELC. Combined with a partial turret the ELC can be easily killed by even tier 4 lights in a brawl. There's a reason why expected damage in the ELC is so low, many times people will fail to get a single shot of damage with it.



pepe_trueno #19 Posted Mar 02 2016 - 14:35

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View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 02 2016 - 03:21, said:

 

They where historically developed over the same years "developed by Hotchkiss and Klöckner-Humboldt-Deutz companies from 1956 through 1962" and "Developed from 1957 through 1961", respectively.

 

now compare mauss time line vs t10 meds timeline :B

 

as many already pointed out sp has turret, an autoloader and the gund handling dosent suck. 



leeuniverse #20 Posted Mar 03 2016 - 23:07

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View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 01 2016 - 20:00, said:

Aim time

Spähpanzer SP I C is 2.50s while the French Light Tank AMX ELC bis has 2.90s

 

Yes, the SP I C has an option for an auto-loader, but that cannot be the sole reason for a two tier difference.

 

Actually, the ELC's true aim-time is 5 sec's due to it's bloom.  It's an utterly terrible tank.  They need to cut it in half, thus the tank needs to be buffed.

They also need to double the side to side movement of the turret....  You try to shoot a tank at a distance and it moves just a few feet and you have to move your tank to move the turret, and with the huge butted bloom of the gun you end up not being able to shoot the enemy.

 

The tank is so bad that you literally have to be five feet from the enemy to shoot it, AND them and you going in a straight line or you'll actually MISS trying to shoot a tank on the move, or if they aren't moving and you are you need to be five feet from them or you'll likely miss.

 

Anyway, the tank sucks which is why it's the best tank of the game if you are halfway decent and want to pad your WN8.  Everybody is so bad in the tank due to it's tier and the tank itself is such crap that it gives a great WN8 best of the game for halfway decent players.  Anyway, it among many tanks makes me angry with Wargaming that they don't buff tanks that could be fun so they can be more competitive.

 

View PostLoCi_0g, on Mar 01 2016 - 20:18, said:

I understand what you are saying, but at tier 5 it seams like an overkill compared to other tier 5 light tanks.

It will one shot many tier five. If it did not have the option of the 90mm, then I could see it as a tier 5.

The statement of the auto-loader as a separator for two tier difference does not seem to balance the 90mm the ELC has.

 

Imagine if a historic option was allowed in the game; that of the 75/55 taper bore cannon in late model pz III. Should it be tier 4?

 

Na, it doesn't one shot very many tanks.

Anyway, if you play the two tanks you will understand why they are tier'ed the way they are.






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