118 replies to this topic

[OrnmiIler]

TuskerDat, on May 04 2016 - 01:48, said:

 

...or Bananas  ...depending on when we oppressed you (thanks Smedley).

 

Smedley Butler, a very real hero and US patriot in every respect received the Medal of Honor twice but, stated plainly and honestly his service at the time was truly just as a hit man for United Fruit. Had Butler lived recently during the recent past generation, given his predisposition for the truth, would have never risen to flag officer, and if he had risen to a major general most assuredly would have been fired by these so-called US administrations. More importantly his deportment, while personally having fell on the sword of hard times, along with the rest of our nation, never deterred him from his primary duty to that nation. Butler was the penultimate winter US patriotic soldier made wholly of that anti-phony right stuff of the republic, who staunchly always bared witness to the truth, even when it was personally painful. That virulent virus of truth with which he was inflicted, fended off the riches offered him to betray this nation, but he never flinched, and the USA thankfully was saved. Yes indeed, it is thanks to the likes of you few Smedley Butler’s that we all today were able to be born into this world. How we die here is up to our own individual free will and how much, we each of us, value that same intense virus of the same old universal truth.  Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

OrnmiIler, on Dec 14 2016 - 20:05, said:

 

Smedley Butler, a very real hero and US patriot in every respect received the Medal of Honor twice but, stated plainly and honestly his service at the time was truly just as a hit man for United Fruit. Had Butler lived recently during the recent past generation, given his predisposition for the truth, would have never risen to flag officer, and if he had risen to a major general most assuredly would have been fired by these so-called US administrations. More importantly his deportment, while personally having fell on the sword of hard times, along with the rest of our nation, never deterred him from his primary duty to that nation. Butler was the penultimate winter US patriotic soldier made wholly of that anti-phony right stuff of the republic, who staunchly always bared witness to the truth, even when it was personally painful. That virulent virus of truth with which he was inflicted, fended off the riches offered him to betray this nation, but he never flinched, and the USA thankfully was saved. Yes indeed, it is thanks to the likes of you few Smedley Butler’s that we all today were able to be born into this world. How we die here is up to our own individual free will and how much, we each of us, value that same intense virus of the same old universal truth.  Merry Christmas everyone!

 

 

^..Outstanding post!

Keep up the good work.... *Oh, and Merry Christmas to you!

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."

 

-John F. Kennedy

 

 

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

kamikazekirb, on May 04 2016 - 13:39, said:

great read!

 

scarry stuff at times in those toasters.

 

thanks

 

^..You certainly got that right.

And speaking of significant emotional events:

 

*This historical WWII footage shows graphic scenes of a disturbing nature. Viewer discretion is strongly advised.

Spoiler

 

Still think War is "cool", boys and girls..?

 

 

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

Old_Noobette, on Aug 12 2016 - 23:32, said:

Wow.

This is one of those times when, i am actually thankful that i don't have the knowledge granted by experience, to actually give an informed opinion on the matter.

 

You're very fortunate for that reason. On that note...

 

That makes me think of that age old question: "Why do bad things happen to people?"...

 

*Well, honestly, I no longer believe that "bad things happen for a reason". I now believe.. they just... happen. And it is us who try to assign a reason for it later. Maybe, as human beings, we do that because of our own insatiable need for explanations and answers for everything...when sometimes..there just aren't any.

 

 

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

Presidents' Day, on Feb 20, 2017:

 Significant Emotional Events

 

Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.

-John F. Kennedy

 

 

[jakelives]

The_Chieftain, on May 03 2016 - 19:02, said:

When it came to direct fire, probably the biggest problem in a tank is figuring out that you're being shot at in the first place. For me, it was a night encounter, and my first thought was not actually "Ohmygodtheyaretryingtokillme," but "Oh, hey, look at that. Tracers." Followed closely by "Huh. They're coming in my direction". And then, eventually, "Wait. They're shooting at me. I'd better duck."

Thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy. I've been shot at a grand total of once in my life, I was on a base in Iraq and your line of thought was the same as mine when it happened. It was at night and I was walking to a guard shack to show my ID, this was the only point of light around. Distant bang. Notable 'thud' in the luscious gravel by my foot. I just thought, "I probably shouldn't stand here" and moved away from the light. Afterwards I wondered if that was a normal reaction or if something was off with me.

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

jakelives, on Mar 08 2017 - 08:27, said:

Thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy. I've been shot at a grand total of once in my life, I was on a base in Iraq and your line of thought was the same as mine when it happened. It was at night and I was walking to a guard shack to show my ID, this was the only point of light around. Distant bang. Notable 'thud' in the luscious gravel by my foot. I just thought, "I probably shouldn't stand here" and moved away from the light. Afterwards I wondered if that was a normal reaction or if something was off with me.

 

^..Was it worth it..?

 

Spoiler

My apologies for the bluntness. Let me rephrase my question and expand a bit.

 

Do you believe your tour in the sandbox was worth it, overall..?

Was it worth the terrible cost of human lives..? Was it worth the $$$ trillions+ of tax dollars spent on almost 20 years of war..? Tax dollars that could have been much better spent on rebuilding our own nation, rather than destroying others. Were the bombs and bullets a good investment..? Did it make the world a safer place..? Especially since both of these places will almost certainly end up going right back to the same dangerous, messed up [edited] hole countries they were before we even started...and after we leave, quite possibly even worse!  

 

So, let me ask you again...

Was it all worth it..?

 

 

[Prima_Vox]

Since we are on emotional events I will pass on the text of a letter my mother received in June 1966.  I remember seeing the letter as a child (I was 6) but could not read it as my Dad was right handed and obviously his handwriting was pretty bad in this.  He only vaguely remembered writing the letter.  It arrived on Red Cross stationary, and due to some administrative confusion she was not aware his injury until she got the letter.  I apologize for the Bold Text, but seemed easiest way to distinguish who's writing.

 

Dear Pat,

 

Just a note to let you know I got hit but am ok.  Unfortunately the round or schrapnel (sic) went though my right hand.  I have what they used to call a million dollar wound.

 

We hemmed in a reinforced Regt about 6 clicks east (sic) of Lai Khe.  I only had two KIAs to the best of my knowledge but I had a lot of wounded and they're still coming in.  We're about to wipe Charlie out but he's hurting us too and we'll need a lot of patching up.  My wound is slight but looks like I'll go to Japan or Oki (note: Okinawa) because they don't have the orthopedic specialists and facilities here. (note: He did not get evac'd any further)  After I was evacuated (note: due to blood loss)  my Company was hit with a Napalm bomb by one of our planes.  Some people were burned severely. My Commo Chief was killed and the 1SG was severely burned but I think he will make it. (note:  He did not)

 

Anyway my career as a a company commander was rather short lived.  I'll be in the hospital for some time but you shouldn't worry my hand is my only wound (sic) I will give you the address here just in case I stay for a while.

 

Love, Carroll    (note:  he was given another command within the month and wounded again much more severely 4 mos after that)

 

My father was 29 during this engagement. He died NOV 2008 from lung cancer.  He never discussed this incident or made reference to it until the last few months of his life when he was taking significant dosages of morphine.  One side effect from the drug being he began to have disturbing nightmares, most related to this day.  I sat up with him during these bad periods and noticed that even though he was to have a more serious wound later, that event didn't seem to disturb him much. 

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

The_Chieftain, on May 03 2016 - 20:32, said:

Significant Emotional Events

 

And speaking of Significant Emotional Events....

 

*It was on this day, April 30th, 1975, that the war in Vietnam finally ended. After being completely surrounded by the People's Army of Vietnam, Saigon, a city besieged, had fallen. The war in Vietnam was over. 

 

The following pictures show T-54/55 tanks crashing through the gates of the Independence Palace in Saigon:

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 Sometimes I wonder what future historians will write about our a recent "crusade" in the sandbox, decades from now. Will they say it was all for nothing..? Will they say it was a "just" war..? Or, just a terrible waste of human lives and resources. Only time will tell.

 

 

[Prima_Vox]

It is noteworthy that in the Easter Offensive of 1973, the North attacked the South with an Armor heavy force.  A total of 12 Divisions, many of them armored heavy (2 reinforced Regiments of over 100 T-54's on the first day alone).  The South had less than 300 AFV's of all types. 

 

The American public has the idea that the NVA defeated the South with guerilla forces and guys in black pajamas.  In reality, it was overwhelming combat power in a conventional fight.

 

In my father's letter he makes reference to "Charlie"...which was the common slang for both the Viet Cong (VC= Victor Charlie) and the NVA (North Vietnamese Army).  In the case of his fight they were involved with the NVA, whom he considered to be very capable and well led troops.

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

The_Chieftain, on May 20 2016 - 11:22, said:

Yep.

 

The ducking is optional. In my case, it was small arms at close range. There's also the matter that the gunner's sight extension is inside the tank, so if you want to verify what the gunner's actually aiming at, you need to be down.

The_Chieftain, on May 20 2016 - 11:22, said:

Significant Emotional Events

 

So, do you believe it was all worth it, Chief..?

 

Spoiler

 Again, let me expand my question a bit.

 

Do you believe your tour in the sandbox was worth it, overall..?

Was it worth the terrible cost of human lives..? Was it worth the $$$ trillions+ of tax dollars spent on almost 20 years of war..? Tax dollars that could have been much better spent on rebuilding our own nation, rather than destroying others. Were the bombs and bullets a good investment..? Did it make the world a safer place..? Especially since both of these places will almost certainly end up going right back to the same dangerous, messed up [edited] hole countries they were before we even started...and after we leave, quite possibly even worse!  

 

So, let me ask you again...

Was it all worth it..?

 

*And again, I'm just asking for your opinion. I'm not making any 'moral' judgements here, and I'm not judging anyone. So, setting all the politics aside, I simply would like to know if you, personally, think it was worth it. Let me know.

 

[Gomer_P_Tank]

Laceylace, on May 21 2016 - 06:25, said:

I'm currently with the German armed forces. It's so nice to see people being civil and talking here. Did a tour of northern afghan in Marmal until I was injured. Luckily my injures were recoverable. I loved every soldier I saw over that and I am so glad I was able to speak and understand English thanks to schooling. Able to talk to Americans when they pass through and all. Learn what was happening with other units.

 

​Liar.  You're not even old enough to serve in any military. Did you think we all fell off a Turnip wagon yesterday?  Oh please.  By the way, your trolling on this forum is still out of control, you need to get back to insulting people on the forum for the Wargaming staff.  I've ran into 4 threads already where you're ranting down on people, being rude, insulting, and inflammatory to people every chance you get.  Last I heard you were busy team killing people in game, getting around the ban system, with your pal Tsavo.

 

You remind me of those bottom feeding fish in the aquarium that you buy in the shops.

 

[Huey_Long]

Gomer_P_Tank, on May 20 2017 - 06:04, said:

 

​Liar.  You're not even old enough to serve in any military. Did you think we all fell off a Turnip wagon yesterday?  Oh please.  By the way, your trolling on this forum is still out of control, you need to get back to insulting people on the forum for the Wargaming staff.  I've ran into 4 threads already where you're ranting down on people, being rude, insulting, and inflammatory to people every chance you get.  Last I heard you were busy team killing people in game, getting around the ban system, with your pal Tsavo.

 

You remind me of those bottom feeding fish in the aquarium that you buy in the shops.

 

 

You say this but you can't even say it on your main account. 

Sad news! 

[Scorpiany]

Gomer_P_Tank, on May 19 2017 - 23:04, said:

 

​Liar.  You're not even old enough to serve in any military. Did you think we all fell off a Turnip wagon yesterday?  Oh please.  By the way, your trolling on this forum is still out of control, you need to get back to insulting people on the forum for the Wargaming staff.  I've ran into 4 threads already where you're ranting down on people, being rude, insulting, and inflammatory to people every chance you get.  Last I heard you were busy team killing people in game, getting around the ban system, with your pal Tsavo.

 

You remind me of those bottom feeding fish in the aquarium that you buy in the shops.

 

 

Not old enough to be in the military? What? How old do you think Lacey is? She's served for several years now.

 

Go away Mr. Troll.

 

By the way, those "bottom-feeding fish" are very good for aquarium life - They keep things clean and working. So you're just complimenting her there. 

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

The_Chieftain, on May 20 2016 - 11:22, said:

Yep.

 

The ducking is optional. In my case, it was small arms at close range. There's also the matter that the gunner's sight extension is inside the tank, so if you want to verify what the gunner's actually aiming at, you need to be down.

The_Chieftain, on May 20 2016 - 11:22, said:

Significant Emotional Events

 

Are you still there Chief..? Again, do you believe it was worth it..?

 

Spoiler

 Again, let me expand my question a bit.

 

Do you believe your tour in the sandbox was worth it, overall..?

Was it worth the terrible cost of human lives..? Was it worth the $$$ trillions+ of tax dollars spent on almost 20 years of war..? Tax dollars that could have been much better spent on rebuilding our own nation, rather than destroying others. Were the bombs and bullets a good investment..? Did it make the world a safer place..? Especially since both of these places will almost certainly end up going right back to the same dangerous, messed up [edited] hole countries they were before we even started...and after we leave, quite possibly even worse!  

 

So, let me ask you again...

Was it all worth it..?

 

*And again, I'm just asking for your opinion. I'm not making any 'moral' judgements here, and I'm not judging anyone, personally. So, setting all the "politics" and "duty" aside, I simply would like to know if you think it was worth it. Let me know.

 

[Prima_Vox]

I suspect Chieftain doesn't want to be drawn into a potential political conversation, so I'll answer as a participant in these events in an apolitical fashion.  I was one of the first deployed to the "sandbox" in Nov of 2001.

 

The real problem with these charged rhetorical questions.  They pose no alternatives.  The reality is no one knows the chain of events without any U.S. intervention, so it's a fallacy of logic, a false comparison to an unknown.   Consider, was the loss of 3% of the world's population in WWII (60 million people--mostly civilians) worth the cost?  I don't know, do you?  Of course not, because we have nothing to compare a separate result to.  We think it was worth it, but in reality the question doesn't make sense.

 

One of the first things I encountered in Afghanistan were girls and young women who could not read or write, living in virtual slavery, with entire communities living in fear of the local Taliban who were really no more than thugs.  That was until we came along.  Last time I was in that same community  the situation was completely different.  Girls going to school.  Local gov't accountable to the community.  Economy and standard of living emerging from the 13th century.  People not living in fear of the local thugs stealing their little girls at night.

 

So yeah...in that aspect I think it was worth it, just like fighting WWII was (now if we could just do something about Chicago)......The reality is that we as a people make the best decisions we can with the information we have a the time.  That's really all we can do.  Rhetorical discussions of "was it worth it" really don't mean too much and are part of the "2020 Hindsight" discussion.

 

 

[The_Chieftain]

Not really my position to say if it was worth it or not, as that implies a cost/benefit calculation. The Iraqis I interacted with seemed pretty solid people, worried more about their childrens' futures, or getting a good price for vegetables down the local market, and trying to enjoy life, than worrying about who was running the country. To that end, I think they were better off for our excursion than not. Of course, that is before one considers the folks in Mosul, where I spent six weeks, who have been having a rather lousy time of it the last couple of years, but the causes for that are somewhat un-related. Is that future worth a year of my life, and all the associated dollar and blood costs that have been drained from the US? Who's to say?

[Gomer_P_Tank]

ArcherII, on May 21 2017 - 15:29, said:

I suspect Chieftain doesn't want to be drawn into a potential political conversation, so I'll answer as a participant in these events in an apolitical fashion.  I was one of the first deployed to the "sandbox" in Nov of 2001.

 

The real problem with these charged rhetorical questions.  They pose no alternatives.  The reality is no one knows the chain of events without any U.S. intervention, so it's a fallacy of logic, a false comparison to an unknown.   Consider, was the loss of 3% of the world's population in WWII (60 million people--mostly civilians) worth the cost?  I don't know, do you?  Of course not, because we have nothing to compare a separate result to.  We think it was worth it, but in reality the question doesn't make sense.

 

One of the first things I encountered in Afghanistan were girls and young women who could not read or write, living in virtual slavery, with entire communities living in fear of the local Taliban who were really no more than thugs.  That was until we came along.  Last time I was in that same community  the situation was completely different.  Girls going to school.  Local gov't accountable to the community.  Economy and standard of living emerging from the 13th century.  People not living in fear of the local thugs stealing their little girls at night.

 

So yeah...in that aspect I think it was worth it, just like fighting WWII was (now if we could just do something about Chicago)......The reality is that we as a people make the best decisions we can with the information we have a the time.  That's really all we can do.  Rhetorical discussions of "was it worth it" really don't mean too much and are part of the "2020 Hindsight" discussion.

 

 

 

"I suspect Chieftain doesn't want to be drawn into a potential political conversation, "   ----  ^  Are you serious?  Have you been to the Chieftain's other long threads, where the kewl kids hang out at on this forum? They talk politics all the time are never moderated or banned...  Surely, you tickle our sense of humor.  Lol..

[Prima_Vox]

Gomer_P_Tank, on May 22 2017 - 23:02, said:

 

"I suspect Chieftain doesn't want to be drawn into a potential political conversation, "   ----  ^  Are you serious?  Have you been to the Chieftain's other long threads, where the kewl kids hang out at on this forum? They talk politics all the time are never moderated or banned...  Surely, you tickle our sense of humor.  Lol..

 

Yah...you got me......the man's notorious.....

[Iron_Soul_Stealer]

The_Chieftain, on May 22 2017 - 09:35, said:

Not really my position to say if it was worth it or not, as that implies a cost/benefit calculation. The Iraqis I interacted with seemed pretty solid people, worried more about their childrens' futures, or getting a good price for vegetables down the local market, and trying to enjoy life, than worrying about who was running the country. To that end, I think they were better off for our excursion than not. Of course, that is before one considers the folks in Mosul, where I spent six weeks, who have been having a rather lousy time of it the last couple of years, but the causes for that are somewhat un-related. Is that future worth a year of my life, and all the associated dollar and blood costs that have been drained from the US? Who's to say?

 

Chief... I meant, was this war worth it for you..?

 

Again, setting all the politics and "duty" aside, I think as an individual you are allowed to speak your mind and stand a position on this subject. And more importantly, you are certainly allowed to build, shape, and express your own personal opinions about such questions. It's a healthy thing to do in a free society. 

 

Consequently, and as I stated earlier in this thread, it is going to be interesting to see and learn what future historians, leaders, and academics will say and write about this current war decades from now.  Will they compare it to the War in Vietnam...? ...and say it was all for nothing..? Will they say it was a "just" war..? Or, "just" a terrible waste of human lives and resources. 

 

I guess only time will tell. In the meantime, let me ask you another question:

*If the primary objective of war is to win....then do you think we won this war..?

 

0304, on May 04 2016 - 05:36, said:

...but what they truly seek is oil.

 

 

^..Believe it or not, Dude, I don't think oil was the primary objective of this current war in the sandbox {Iraq-istan}. 

 

Spoiler

 Besides, if we've been paying attention to the news, lately, we'd already know that certain domestic industries and "select" people within a certain democratic nation can make a whole lot more $$$ by keeping us in a perpetual and continuous state of war and fear. And subsequently by manufacturing and selling military weapons {*ie. billion $ deals} to nondemocratic sandbox-countries that really shouldn't have these weapons in the first place. This, in return for ever cheaper exports of middle east oil. So honestly, I don't think your "oil" argument is "digging deep enough" to discover the real issues here...if you'll pardon the terrible pun.