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The Chieftain's Hatch: A Bigger Kitty


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lightwaveTT #21 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 05:08

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Sorry as you said, that was supposed to be .1 mile per liter or half a mile a gallon. to boot it had to have its engien reved up to turn the turret regularly, so even just sitting there defensively its burning fuel.

 

(i believe schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 103 / 503 was the last Abteilung of the Waffen-SS; equipped with (only) Tiger IIs.)

~ Bazooka Joe (Sat 27 Feb 2010 08:02:00 AM EST)

 

As for them being crap vs is2 that's one example.

Here is one were they were outnumbered but not outflanked or being ambushed.

Block Quote

 

"On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further 11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of the 11 Stalin tanks on the road….My own personal score of enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39."


Karl Brommann East Germany, April of 1945.

he was posted to the schwere SS Panzer Abteilung (103) 503 / III SS Panzer Corps,

 

His tank carried 39 rounds and he claimed to have made 39 kills in that action including 11 is2's.

Im pretty sure that tank was formidable and easily a match for a IS2.

 

Block Quote

 What's with the retarded wehraboos lately? I thought we had seal-clubbed them to death long ago?

 Sorry is ww2 still going on for you, you must really be old, i thought this was just a post about history

 


Edited by lightwaveTT, Jun 14 2016 - 05:58.


WulfeHound #22 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 05:44

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Okay since those are SS kill claims we can automatically reduce those by half. If his claims are anything to go by this particular example (since both happened nearby to each other in the same month) I'd imagine those claims are completely made up

The_Chieftain #23 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 08:07

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Hang on. Are you advocating that of 39 rounds carried in his tank (39 is an odd number, by the way), that he obtained 39 kills?

Anlushac11 #24 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 13:29

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Can I has his gunner for my Tiger II crew?

Silverleaf_Nightraven #25 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 15:38

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Remember they could have gotten rounds from other damaged tanks during quiet times between the actual fighting. A 12 hour engagement for example isn't 12 hours of straight gun fire at the enemy. There are lulls. 39 tanks though? That is alot. Still if he saw the shell hit and crew bail out,  saw the tank on fire, etc he could have thought he did in fact kill each one. Like when pilots claim kills but the plane somehow regained control and made it back to base later instead of crashing. So his claims would not be out of the ballpark from his perspective. Just like all other crews, pilots, etc..

Edited by Silverleaf_Nightraven, Jun 14 2016 - 15:52.


EnsignExpendable #26 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 20:05

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Jun 14 2016 - 02:07, said:

Hang on. Are you advocating that of 39 rounds carried in his tank (39 is an odd number, by the way), that he obtained 39 kills?

 

1 shot 1 kill is a surprisingly realistic claim for an SS tank crew.

EnsignExpendable #27 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 20:12

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View PostlightwaveTT, on Jun 13 2016 - 23:08, said:

His tank carried 39 rounds and he claimed to have made 39 kills in that action including 11 is2's.

Im pretty sure that tank was formidable and easily a match for a IS2

 

 

Please tell me how many IS-2s Brommann managed to knock out in combat with the 1 Warszawska Brygada Pancerna im. Bohaterow Westerplatte at Gdansk. Exact number would be appreciated, but approximate is good enough.

 

Edit: oh also the date of this heroic action, as it appears to be very difficult to establish.


Edited by EnsignExpendable, Jun 14 2016 - 20:14.


KaiserWilhelmShatner #28 Posted Jun 14 2016 - 21:12

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1 unicum running amok against a bunch of failtoons.  

EnsignExpendable #29 Posted Jun 15 2016 - 14:24

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Shock and awe, I went through the documents of the 65th Army and there are exactly zero losses of IS-2s during their fighting in Danzig. 

Shanzival #30 Posted Jun 15 2016 - 15:44

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Glorious Stalin stepped in and personally changed all of those is-2 losses into 'awaiting repairs', a trick the Soviets gained in pre-Barbarossa trading with the Third Reich.

lightwaveTT #31 Posted Jun 16 2016 - 02:23

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Sorry i was a little tired this was actually Kromer that did this.

They were both tank aces assigned to the same division.

 

Block Quote

 Hang on. Are you advocating that of 39 rounds carried in his tank (39 is an odd number, by the way), that he obtained 39 kills?

That was all the rounds he had left during the encounter.

So he was claiming that every shot he fired killed a tank in this action, expending all his remaining ammo.

 

It is unclear if he is actually claiming he knocked out all 11 is2's or just the first and last in the formation. (that was a well known textbook tactic the Germans used). He However claims 3 is2 kills just prior to this as well. Two of them retreating from him in reverse after surprising them and knocking out the first.

 

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 1 unicum running amok against a bunch of failtoons

 Ill add with a op cannon.

 

Which is what i contest, that the gun was op and a match for anything it encountered at the time. Im not saying it couldn't bounce or have a user that was poor, im just saying the tank and gun in the right hands was indeed formidable.


Edited by lightwaveTT, Jun 16 2016 - 04:21.


EnsignExpendable #32 Posted Jun 16 2016 - 03:47

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Did you not read the link at all? Korner destroyed zero IS-2s and the attacking Soviet forces didn't even notice his presence. 

lightwaveTT #33 Posted Jun 16 2016 - 05:08

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I did read the link, i read the comments too.

 

hmm, on axishistory forum there was a post with reference from "The Great Patriotic War. The Battle of Berlin" Vol. 15(4-5) which shows the losses of the units from the 1st Byelorussian front during April 1945 and includes the 11th Tank Corps monthly losses. They apparently lost 5 IS-2 and 14 damaged during April

http://forum.axishis...=124380&start=0

 

About three quarters of the way down you will note arts overview of the composed tables of the losses during the time.

Also note this is from Russian records and data.

 

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How many tanks were knocked out.

Who can really say there was propaganda and ego involved on both sides during and after the war.

 

Some guy translated this a few years back for the reading of his fellows on that forum.

It maybe considered a after action report, as its thread suggests,

So as to know, if the below is a translated letter or many letters compiled is unclear to me.

Its is however from a tanker/s in that division, there is more then this as well that he translated which are a bit clearer.

 

I've bolded the area of interest in purple.

 

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 In a letter from the former commander of the 1st company, 503 battalion, SS-Obersturmführer Max Lippert, who returned from the military hospital, to SS-Untersturmführer Kauerauf, residing as well in a military hospital due to massive wounds (read: traumatic amputation) after leading a mix-and-match company: (written on April 12, 1945)

"Hey Kauerauf!!!

Returned yesterday from the Hospital, found your letter from May 3 in my mail. As far as I can see, the amputation of your left foot was successful and as I am sure that you will survive the worst, you will undoubtebly return to normal, given your youth. I still wish you all the best, and get well soon!

Soso, just to let you know: youve made a mistake, Menke (Unterscharführer, Brommans driver) is not dead, he is still driving tanks. However, here is the casualty list from the 1st Company:

Around Arnswalde: Schaal, Jäger, Schlachta, Ludwigs, Knorr, Belde, Thies, Krenn, Martin, Peter, Franz R.
The I-Group (Instandsetzunggruppe) had to be put 2-times into action as infantry!
Around Danzig: Heinrich (Tank Commander), Nolte, Dietzen, Jeserer, Klünder, Kremann, Müller;G., Melzer, Fürbacher, Kofler and Grupe are missing
From Küstrin we are missing: Allmer, Fell, Fischer, Möller, Nottrott, and Sturm.

This is a list which will assuredly grow larger and larger.

Commanders which have fallen: Kaes (Jakob), König, Grimminger Adolf
Commanders which have been wounded: Meinl (Kurt), Schäfer, Johhannigmeyer (K-H), Belle and myself (Lippert, Max)

The battalion has been split into 2-parts, one in Danzig and the other on the Oder, but no worries, a reunification will happen soon enough! Brommann has ringed up 66 knock-outs and was mentioned the other day in the Army report, he has however lost an eye. Our effectiveness in this action was wonderful, and would have been much better had the tactical situation been better. But the brokenness with which it began, sits as a great disturbance with us, and hasnt shown an end yet. Worse yet is the fact that not a single tank has returned from Danzig, except for my own, of which is only a mixture of other tanks fitted together. The only originals are mine and that of Bender. I can hardly think of it because it is so sad. It is however quite quiet where we are now, all we do is take watch until something big happens. Haake (Untersturmführer, deserted from the troops - read later translation out of Danzig...) has gotten married, took off out of Küstrin, but has not shown up anywhere, he could have at least said something!"

Marching orders for the newly formed Battalion were distributed on April 16, 1945. These instructed a march towards Strausberg by way of Angermünde. The relocation of the 11.SS-PzGren Divsion followed this order on the 18th of April. Both sections were moved to positions southern of Seelow, and placed under the command of the 9th Army. The 1st Battalion was put under control of SS-Sturmbannführer Grathwohl and the 2nd stayed under control of SS-Sturmbannführer Herzig. In order to take up more effective positions, a night march is instituted, in order to make up for lost ground and to better camoflage and support the 9th Fallschirmjäger Division, as well as the LVI Panzer-Korps. As this was completed, the defense against an enemy attack of 70 tanks with the following destruction of 50 enemy tanks in the area around Buckow was successfully carried out by the newly arrived Panzer group. During this, a new form of Panzer tactics was put into use, the so called "Rammbock", which consisted of 1-2 Tiger II B and then 3 -4 StuG as the "core" element, which then was in turn secured by several infantry elements. This new deployment succeeded in defeating the enemy, and enabled the group to take up positions on the street around Buckow as well as knocking out around 64 enemy tanks. One friendly tank was lost, and another returned with damage.

Lothar Tilby: The damaged Panzer had damage to its drive train and to the aiming devices of the cannon

April 18, 1945: The 11.SS-PzGrenDiv makes numerous attacks eastwards of Strausberg. Tiger II B's of sSS-503 first put these previously used "Rammböcke" to use. One such is used in and around Grünow by SS-Hauptscharführer Körner, who from the onset has knocked out 7 Russian tanks and brought the following infantry attack to a standstill.

April 19, 1945: SS-Obersturmführer Müller was able to knock out 23 enemy tanks between Grunow and Bollersdorf. The Russians took the opportunity given to them as he retreated to reload ammunition, and attacked in force, which caused our tank force to be put back into action to cover Müller during his retreat. We were able to knock out many T34s and KW1s during this time. A counterattack was made at around 1pm (13h), under the cover of the partial platoon of SS-Uschaf. Körner in the direction of Bollersdorf.

This attack caught the Russians off gaurd, as they were caught re-plenishing both fuel and ammunition. During this surprise attack, a majority of their tanks were shot up and very few were able to escape. Heavy fighting ensued this attack westward from Bollersdorf, whereby Körner and SS-Untersturmführer Schäfer were able to knock out numerous enemy tanks. The Russians lost in total around 70 tanks, eastwards of Strausberg. Körner was able to knock out a further 17 more enemy tanks during the battles around the city limits of Berlin,

so that his number of knock-outs at that time was put at 101 Tanks and 25 PaK. Both he, Schäfer and Herzig recieved the Knights Cross on April 29, 1945 in Berlin.


Lothar Tilby: The Russians have broken through, attacked and encircled our shop company (Werkstattkompanie). 2 tanks which were on hand had to be rushed into service, one of which was lost during the first break-out attempt. The second attempt with ours resulted in 2 knock-outs. We were able to make our way to Berlin with the remains of the workshop company, and at the area around Berlin, we were able to knock-out another 2 Russian tanks!

April 21, 1945: The last battle ready elements of the SS-Pz Reg. 11 are employed around Petershagen and Friedersdorf. These elements consist of Tiger II B and StuG, which from hull-down positions, knock-out multiple Russian tanks. The commanding Army corps, LVI Korps, recieves on April 22, the order to defend Berlin.

Lothar Tilby, April 21, 1945: Our Funker, Horak, has been wounded for the second time during the towing of our tank. He was taken to the Medics.

Lothar Tilby, April 24, 1945: Berlin has been completely encircled by the Russians! The remaining tanks of the Battalion have been directed to their defensive positions in and around Berlin. The first action has already taken place, around the Mecklenburgischenstrasse, where 4 enemy tanks have been knocked out.

Lothar Tilby; April 25, 1945: New action around S-Bahnhof Heerstrasse
April 25, 1945: The 11. SS-PzGrenDiv makes a successful counterattack in the district of Neukölln. These are found in the areas defended by parts of the SS-PzRgt 11 around Hermannstrasse and S-Bahnhof Neukölln as well as with the group east of Neukölln under command of "Panzerkampfgruppe Kausch"


Lothar Tilby; April 26, 1945: Action around S-Bahnhof Halensee
April 26, 1945: The remnants of the 11.SS-PzGrenDiv as well as parts of the SS-PzRgt 11 take up position in the Tiergarten. The number of battle ready tanks and StuG remains at 8 vehicles. Each of thise will be put into place at important defensive areas of the city.


April 27, 1945: The Tiger of Unterscharführer Bender helps stabilize the front around S-Bahnhof Halensee. Another Tiger of the company is also dispatched to help him out, with a clear kill zone in the direction of the AVUS race-track. Other tanks of SS-PzRgt 11 have been positioned around Leipzigerstrasse.

Lothar Tilby; April 28, 1945: Defence commander Herzig and 4 other commanders from our Battalion have been decorated with the Knights Cross.


Lothar Tilby; April 29, 1945: Panzer Commander Unterscharführer Bender has been wounded in the stomach while outside of the tank. The new commandant is Unterscharführer Semik (later shown as missing)
Positions of the Tigers on April 29, 1945: Bahnhofs Westkreuz, Halensee as support for defending infantry. The Tiger at Westkreuz commands the entire area of the AVUS with its excellent southernly killyone. The new Main Battle Line is the Kurfürstendamm. Other Tigers from our Battalion block this street from the south. Diers and Turk secure the Eastern/southeastern flanks, other Tigers (Schäfer, Körner) from the Battalion support the southern front of the 18. PzGrenDiv around S-Bahnhof Westkreuz and Halensee and around the Kurfürstendamm. The command post of the sSS-PzAbt503 is at Zähringerstrasse, near Fehrbellinerplatz.

Lothar Tilby; April 30, 1945: 1 Russian tank knocked out around S-Bahnhof Halensee. Semik is wounded by a mortar shell while outside the tank, new commander is SS-Hauptscharführer Scholte.
The next day, Scholte, with his Tiger from the 1. Company, knocks out 5 Russian tanks.


Lothar Tilby; May 1, 1945: The last knock-outs, my tank/crew has knocked out 28 Russian tanks all together.
The Tiger of Untersturmführer Schäfer fom the 1./503 is supporting the troops around the Zoo and has knocked out many enemy tanks. The Tiger II B of Turk was shot to bits during the morning of May 1., and had to be rescued by the Bergepanzer from Unterscharführer Piller, who was later seriously wounded, and sadly taken into Russian captivity. The remaining tank strenght has dwindled to 3 Tiger II B's and a mixture of 6 Panzer - and StuG of SS-PzRgt 11. This number is accomodated by the 6-8 SPW of the SS-PzAufklärungsAbt 11. Massive congestion (traffic jam) around the Charlottenburger Brücke in Spandau. After the "failed" escape attempt up Friedrichstrasse, the next break-out attempt will take place in the direction of Spandau and the West, with the last remaining Tigers of the sSS-PzAbt 503, with the tanks of SS-Obersturmführer Lippert and Untersturmführer Schäfer. Both tanks are to take up positions around the bridge and cover the attack and escapees. The first attack takes place around 8:00a.m.. One Tiger takes point, the other takes up placement on the western bank. Fierce battles break out in Spandau, the break-outs are supported by the Tiger of Schäfer. Schäfer and another tank begin to push foward after a fierce firefight on the Bahndamm from Staaken and then southwards on the Seeburgerstrasse. It is then that they are engaged by a Josef Stalin tank from around 120m distance and a deserted 88mm gun, which had been taken over by the Russians. Both tanks are knocked out. 2 men of Schäfers tank crew don't make it out of the tank, and the 3 others are badly wounded. (Schäfer, who was badly burned, has only recently been able to remember with some detail what exactly happened).

May 3, 1945: The next break out takes place during the night with the Tiger II B of Obersturmführer Lippert with support from a FlaK-Vierling and another panzer. Lippert has to destroy his own tank due to a lack of gasoline.

Lothar Tilby: Break-out attempt from Berlin towards the West with the last Panzers of our Battalion. Our tank, commanded by Lippert, and the second by Knights Cross holder Schäfer - from the 3rd Company-. This break out has brought about some of the hardest fighting, the Russians employing an almost godly amount of firepower, causing us to lose a huge number of personell, vehicles and civilians. But similarly causing a massive amount of casualties against our enemies. Schäfer is knocked out during his second attempt, 2 of his men are dead, the rest are badly wounded. Further break-out attempts are worthless, the destruction of our own tank is drawing near, we are now the last tank of the Battalion!!
Major-General Mummert - Commander of PzDiv "Müncheberg", SS-Sturmbahnführer Herzig and Abt-Arzt SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Cappell make it on May 5, 1945 to about Ketzin on the Havel. Their group is then uncovered and encircled by the Russians. Only a few are able to break out and make it to the 12th Army, the rest, including Dr. Cappell are presumed dead.


Lothar Tilby: Obersturmführer Lippert disguises himself as an infantryman in his escape attempt towards the west. He is killed by a shot to the head. The high losses of our Battalion can be seen through the tank crews. In Berlin, 6 commanders, 3 radiomen, 2 loaders were used as replacements for men wounded or killed. Only Hans Klöckner and Lothar Tilby were in service from the beginning till the end!

 

Funny were you can find history buffs they lurk around in the strangest places.

You may find the post here its a interesting read, http://www.planetarm...read.php?t=1448

 

Here is another nice site about the tiger II's production.

http://www.fprado.co...site/tiger2.htm

 

One interesting note on this site claims the breakdown reports of this tank was lower then the panther,

Comparable to the pnz IV.

 


Edited by lightwaveTT, Jun 16 2016 - 08:05.


dinocamo #34 Posted Jun 17 2016 - 18:21

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In your opinion, what is a score in tank warfare? Please, define it.

Is it when the entire tank explose? Absolutely, it's a confirmed kill/lost.

Is it when the enemy turret blow out of the hull? Sure, it generally means that the tanks is heavily damage and unable to repair in the most of cases. Both sides will count it as a kill/lost

Is it when the tank entirely burned? Yes, the will get a very heavy damage and that tank might be scrapped out.

Is it when the tank get immobilized? Really depending in the situation. A tank got a mobility kill at long range, like hit the tracks/engine, can be confused to a score kill. Nevertheless, the tank still can operate. It may count as a kill but not a lost. The damaged tank can be recovered and repaired.

It the tank is immobilized because the crews got killed, this is a confirm kill/lost. However, if the crews got killed but the tank didn't actually get any serious damage, it can be repaired, but it's not counted as a new produced unite.

Is it when the tank have a little fire? At range, about 400m and over, it's very difficult to see if a tank got destroyed. During the WW2, tanks also carry the personal stuff of the soldiers on their hull. The cloths, papers, lubricants, camping wood etc. are easy to catch fire, just need a HE shell or a shell detonate on the armor is enough to make a fire like a tank got destroyed. The tank commanders can easily get confused. However, these fires are easy to extinguish and will not make any serious damage to the tanks. Therefore, it can be confirmed as a kill by one side but not a lost by the other side.


 

Another example, a tank after being immobilized and stand on the field by a hit on the right side of the hull, the team on the left side of that tank didn't notice that that tank is already destroyed then fire another hit, thus another scored shot. So, a same tank in the same battle can be counted as destroyed more than 1 times.






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