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M4 Sherman Tank - Historically, A Total Death Trap - VIDEO


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charley2222 #21 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:32

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View PostWulfeHound, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:16, said:

 

Incorrect on the Sherman part. Churchills were quite decent heavy tanks, even with the lower firepower compared to other heavies.

 

my dad is born in 1916 in switzerland :) and are in the military and see everything . is told me,  the big  mistake that  cost the war to Hitler is attacking russia to early and fight on both front  ,  german have far better  technologie , the only reason  russia dont  fall , is because the  german fight on both front . big mistake . german tank are the best p4p . and russian tank best bang for buck :)  usa tank garbage because fast engineering concept and transportation problem . first genaration of french tank are good but french have to much stubborn leadership fighting each other lol

Edited by charley2222, Jun 08 2016 - 22:33.


Arsenal_destroyer #22 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:34

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That's right Red. Unless one construes facts from:

Pawn Stars

American Pickers

Alone (oohh... scary)

Counting Cars

Mountain Men

Ice Road Truckers....

I mean what the heck is that doing on the "history" channel.



Asassian7 #23 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:35

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That thread title is so wrong. The M4 sherman was actually really good, apart from the gun.

Hiroe #24 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:35

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The History Channel is almost entirely garbage. I watched it some when I was a teenager before I knew any better, but I've since then realized that what they present isn't history. It's what they consider dramatic/exciting/entertaining/acceptable narratives and they synthesize those narratives without much regard for the truth.

 

..And then there are the alien shows..



WulfeHound #25 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:39

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View Postcharley2222, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:32, said:

 

my dad is born in 1916 in switzerland :) and are in the military and see everything . is told me,  the big  mistake that  cost the war to Hitler is attacking russia to early and fight on both front  ,  german have far better  technologie , the only reason  russia dont  fall , is because the  german fight of both front . big mistake . german tank are the best p4p . and russian tank best bang for buck :)  usa tank garbage because fast engineering concept and transportation problem . first genaration of french tank are good but french have to much stubborn leadership fighting each other lol

 

I think I get the gist of what you're saying here, but it's mostly incorrect. The Germans failed to take over the USSR not because of a two front war (the Western Front was stable when Barbarossa started) but because their logistics were absolutely terrible.

 

View PostAsassian7, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:35, said:

That thread title is so wrong. The M4 sherman was actually really good, apart from the gun.

 

When the M4 was introduced in 1942 the 75mm M3 was actually a good multipurpose gun

PrinzEugen85 #26 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:43

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Aside from the fact Chieftain never bothers to mention losses by aircraft, anti-tank infantry teams, Teller mines, or towed AT guns like the Flak 88, there was a reason the British were adamant about getting the Firefly to the frontlines.

Hiroe #27 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:44

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View PostArsenal_destroyer, on Jun 08 2016 - 17:34, said:

That's right Red. Unless one construes facts from:

Pawn Stars

American Pickers

Alone (oohh... scary)

Counting Cars

Mountain Men

Ice Road Truckers....

I mean what the heck is that doing on the "history" channel.

 

More like.. Reality Television Channel #426.

DV_Currie_VC #28 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:44

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View PostFlarvin, on Jun 08 2016 - 13:42, said:

 

Chieftain is but one 'expert' on the subject.

 

Basing your opinion on just his claims is just as bad as basing your opinion on just the history channels claim. 

Basing claims on veterans' reports can also be ill advised. If you believe every vet's story verbatim, then Germany must have won the Normandy campaign, because they must have had 1000's of 88mm guns. Every shell the Germans fired was from an 88.



Sink_Stuff #29 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:44

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View PostAsassian7, on Jun 08 2016 - 21:35, said:

That thread title is so wrong. The M4 sherman was actually really good, apart from the gun.

 

I titled the thread the same title that the author of the book used for his personal account of world war two. His book is called "Death Trap"

WulfeHound #30 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:47

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View PostRounne, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:44, said:

 

I titled the thread the same title that the author of the book used for his personal account of world war two. His book is called "Death Trap"

 

View PostThe_Chieftain, on Oct 17 2014 - 19:23, said:

 Death Traps is not a reliable source. Don't cite it. Or the History Channel show based on it.

/thread



TokenLore #31 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:48

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Even those 'facts' that were looked up are only as good as those recording them.

 

Fact is the war was won by simply out producing the enemy.  It is what the M4 was built for.  I don't believe for any minute it was a better 'designed' tank.  It was simply the best design that could be mass produced in quantities sufficient to do the job and over whelm the enemy.  The concept was the same with the liberty ships.  Produce enough, that simply over whelm and get the job done.

 

It is not that the M4 was a bad tank, it was a simple tank.  it achieved a goal that was set out which was to win the war.  The Germans spent too much time designing, redesigning and simply wasting too much time and resources producing something that would only be changed again and again.  Combine that with factories being interrupted regularly by carpet bombing and you have a country that lost.

 

A tank was not a fortress, it was part of an entire package.  I don't know first hand, but when you look at the tank designs for Germany it always looks that they moved away from the concept that a tank is part of an entire force and more towards the 'fortress' concept, which I believe to be a mistake.

 



Asassian7 #32 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:49

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View PostWulfeHound, on Jun 09 2016 - 09:39, said:

When the M4 was introduced in 1942 the 75mm M3 was actually a good multipurpose gun

Yeah i know, but not by late war - which is why they upgraded it with later models. And why the british went and shoved a 17pdr in there.



charley2222 #33 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:49

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i dont see one place saying  the m4 is a good tank  lol so many fan boy here lolol

m4 fast paper tank and have no gun lol  m4=german _meat_canon


Edited by charley2222, Jun 08 2016 - 22:50.


WulfeHound #34 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 22:53

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View PostAsassian7, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:49, said:

Yeah i know, but not by late war - which is why they upgraded it with later models. And why the british went and shoved a 17pdr in there.

The Firefly was a stopgap until indigenous designs capable of mounting the 17pdr were built.

View Postcharley2222, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:49, said:

i dont see one place saying  the m4 is a good tank  lol so many fan boy here lolol

m4 fast paper tank and have no gun lol  m4=german _meat_canon

 

If the M4 is paper, then the Pz IV would be made of hopes and dreams



DV_Currie_VC #35 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 23:00

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View PostAsassian7, on Jun 08 2016 - 14:49, said:

Yeah i know, but not by late war - which is why they upgraded it with later models. And why the british went and shoved a 17pdr in there.

Yet, many Shermans retained the M3 75mm throughout the war, so it was still an effective weapon when it was used en-masse.

 

The Germans would see a long barrel Sherman, and prioritize it. Also, the British would tend to employ the Fireflies as a 4th tank in a troop of 4 Shermans, the other 3 being 75 or 76mm tanks. They also tended to get picked off 1st. Check out the disruption pattern camouflage on the barrel of most Fireflies - they tried to deceive the Germans into thinking they were 75mm guns.

 

 

 



charley2222 #36 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 23:04

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View PostWulfeHound, on Jun 08 2016 - 16:53, said:

The Firefly was a stopgap until indigenous designs capable of mounting the 17pdr were built.

 

If the M4 is paper, then the Pz IV would be made of hopes and dreams

 

the problem is the m4 are just no match for the tiger :)

about the pz4 is not the same generation       m4 and tiger are  from the same time your a bit  out of the track here

 

is not for nothing m4 tanker always put a lot of garbage to cover the tank lol lack of armor lol Posted Image


Edited by charley2222, Jun 08 2016 - 23:11.


Sink_Stuff #37 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 23:06

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Chieftain is wrong. Death Traps is a reliable source because it is an eyewitness account. He was there, he lived through it, he wrote about it. Chieftain did not. The very idea that he promotes that you disregard an eyewitness account should be suspect to you.

 

Have you ever heard about the book and movie title, "All quiet on the Western Front"? Every single war that happens the government tries to cover up and disregard its complete failings. So, after the war the people who were there feel the obligation to later tell the truth about it when the media and the government simply want to cover it up. Let me tell you what, I would trust "Death Traps" over the government lying source documents that chieftain uses any day of the week.

 

Chieftain: "These documents are from the government archives" "They never lie"

Reality: "Waaaaaa haaaa haaa haaaa" "Government ALWAYS lie and our government documents have always only regarded true facts instead of pro military, pro government propaganda, what a friggen total joke."

 

Wasn't it even Chieftain himself who explained how our government purposefully lied about the strengths and failings in its own equipment to deceive the enemy? Then he wants to use that same bullcrap propaganda whenever it suits his personal or company agenda. Right. Get real Chieftan, our government lies a ton, especially to coverup the failings of military equipment. I bet he thinks the F35 program documents all tell the truth about how awesome that equipment is too right, you know the canceled program that everyone lied about for almost a decade.


Edited by Rounne, Jun 08 2016 - 23:07.


WulfeHound #38 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 23:10

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View Postcharley2222, on Jun 08 2016 - 17:04, said:

 

the problem is the m4 are just no match for the tiger :)

about the pz4 is not the same generation       m4 and tiger are  from the same time your a bit  out of the track here

 

A 33 tonne medium is no match for a 56 tonne heavy? You don't say!

 

Pz IV and Sherman fulfilled the same role in their respective armies, that of a workhorse medium tank that was decent

 

View PostRounne, on Jun 08 2016 - 17:06, said:

Chieftain is wrong. Death Traps is a reliable source because it is an eyewitness account. He was there, he lived through it, he wrote about it. Chieftain did not. The very idea that he promotes that you disregard an eyewitness account should be suspect to you.

 

Have you ever heard about the book and movie title, "All quiet on the Western Front"? Every single war that happens the government tries to cover up and disregard its complete failings. So, after the war the people who were there feel the obligation to later tell the truth about it when the media and the government simply want to cover it up. Let me tell you what, I would trust "Death Traps" over the government lying source documents that chieftain uses any day of the week.

 

Chieftain: "These documents are from the government archives" "They never lie"

Reality: "Waaaaaa haaaa haaa haaaa" "Government ALWAYS lie and our government documents have always only regarded true facts instead of pro military, pro government propaganda, what a friggen total joke."

 

Wasn't it even Chieftain himself who explained how our government purposefully lied about the strengths and failings in its own equipment to deceive the enemy? Then he wants to use that same bullcrap propaganda whenever it suits his personal or company agenda. Right. Get real Chieftan, our government lies a ton, especially to coverup the failings of military equipment. I bet he thinks the F35 program documents all tell the truth about how awesome that equipment is too right, you know the canceled program that everyone lied about for almost a decade.

 

Eyewitness accounts are wrong as often as 33% or even greater. You're seriously believing the words of a man who thinks the Pershing had a "Christy" suspension (it had torsion bars, and it's spelled "Christie" ), thought Patton had anything to do with tank development, and thought the reason why the M4 was given the name of Sherman was because of some crazy anti-Southerner conspiracy theory.

 



charley2222 #39 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 23:20

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View PostWulfeHound, on Jun 08 2016 - 17:10, said:

 

A 33 tonne medium is no match for a 56 tonne heavy? You don't say!

 

Pz IV and Sherman fulfilled the same role in their respective armies, that of a workhorse medium tank that was decent

 

 

Eyewitness accounts are wrong as often as 33% or even greater. You're seriously believing the words of a man who thinks the Pershing had a "Christy" suspension (it had torsion bars, and it's spelled "Christie" ), thought Patton had anything to do with tank development, and thought the reason why the M4 was given the name of Sherman was because of some crazy anti-Southerner conspiracy theory.

 

have a nice day and enjoy to think m4 are a great tank  :)   for sure in ww2 in the battle field  i will feel more save sit inside the tiger compare the m4 because usa have any real heavy and the m4 have no choice to fulfilled every role possible that mean too meet the tiger lolol and remenber  the m4 motor are plane motor so you will blow up quick lol have a nice day peace i`m out :)


Edited by charley2222, Jun 08 2016 - 23:22.


Hurk #40 Posted Jun 08 2016 - 23:25

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View Postcharley2222, on Jun 08 2016 - 14:04, said:

the problem is the m4 are just no match for the tiger :) This is incorrect. the issue was the ranges to reliably pen it were close, so it was a bad choice, but they can and did engage and kill tigers. as the chieftian mentioned, there were only 3 occasions where there were american vs tiger engagements to begin with.  M4s kill theirs, the pershing lost to its, and the last one they were being loaded onto flatcars, so it wasnt really a fair fight. 

about the pz4 is not the same generation       m4 and tiger are  from the same time your a bit  out of the track here. the M4 appears in theater in 1942,. the PZ4 was 1939. both were produced and used through 1945. but the m4 was designed in 1940, while the tiger was designed in 1941 and rushed into production before it was every very good. 

 

is not for nothing m4 tanker always put a lot of garbage to cover the tank lol lack of armor lol all tanks did that. 

 

View PostRounne, on Jun 08 2016 - 14:06, said:

Chieftain is wrong. Death Traps is a reliable source because it is an eyewitness account. He was there, he lived through it, he wrote about it. Chieftain did not. The very idea that he promotes that you disregard an eyewitness account should be suspect to you. um, no.  one is a memoir with no research and one is the united states military archives.  its an eyewitness account of a guy whos job it was to fix broken tanks. if you work at a junkyard, you would say that cars are unsafe as well. as the chieftain proved, tankers only had a 3% casualty rate vs 18% for infantry. Facts, Not Feelings.

 

Have you ever heard about the book and movie title, "All quiet on the Western Front"? Every single war that happens the government tries to cover up and disregard its complete failings. So, after the war the people who were there feel the obligation to later tell the truth about it when the media and the government simply want to cover it up. Let me tell you what, I would trust "Death Traps" over the government lying source documents that chieftain uses any day of the week. except the chieftains research comes from the "covered up" data. its the data they buiried. thats why its such a big deal for him to find those original documents from the wartime, before the coverups and gloss-overs, etc. also note he cites NON-US sources that confirm what he says. 

 

Chieftain: "These documents are from the government archives" "They never lie"

Reality: "Waaaaaa haaaa haaa haaaa" "Government ALWAYS lie and our government documents have always only regarded true facts instead of pro military, pro government propaganda, what a friggen total joke."

its not about if they lie or not. its about having an actual record. 

for instance, i work in IT, i maintain servers and software, by my experience Microsoft makes the worst software in the world. why? because its all i work on and its all i have to fix. thus, its worse than everything else that i DONT work on and DONT have to fix.

 

Wasn't it even Chieftain himself who explained how our government purposefully lied about the strengths and failings in its own equipment to deceive the enemy? Then he wants to use that same bullcrap propaganda whenever it suits his personal or company agenda. Right. Get real Chieftan, our government lies a ton, especially to coverup the failings of military equipment. I bet he thinks the F35 program documents all tell the truth about how awesome that equipment is too right, you know the canceled program that everyone lied about for almost a decade. yes, he did, from the data, he found... in.... the.... archives....

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