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M4 Sherman Tank - Historically, A Total Death Trap - VIDEO


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aswitz87 #401 Posted Jun 18 2016 - 00:13

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View PostPipinghot, on Jun 17 2016 - 15:16, said:

That narrative may feel appealing, but it's depends on a pretty severe failure of logic (and evolution), it just doesn't add up. Advancements require that the majority catch up to the minority over time. Over the course of human biological and society evolution humans have become less violent and more intelligent, those large term trends exist regardless of any short term differences or anecdotal evidence that seem to disagree.

 

A scenario in which "A minority continues to advance" require populations that are isolated from each other to the point that species differentiation eventually occurs (e.g. neandertals). The idea of a small, more advanced sub-set of a species somehow being mixed in with the majority and yet advancing faster than the majority just doesn't happen. Any advancement that gives the minority and advantage over others ends up getting spread into the general population.

 

If a minority develops "more common sense" that becomes a survival and mating advantage, which means that the advanced common sense then gets distributed to the general population over time. The same is true of any advances in intelligence. Any "advances" that don't result in an advantage (and therefore get spread into the general population) are not truly advances in the first place.

 

Except we have started to reach a point where technology can make up for lackings in intelligence (as long as one can handle basic communication one can survive).  Logic as a study is not needed by the masses, nor is it understood well.

 

We don't live in society where genuine intelligence is required for survival.  We live in a society that cares more about what memes and vines you can recite than what major breakthrough you made in science.  We live in a society that values entertainment more than education, to the point that the news media has become entertainment first, opinions second, facts third at best.


Reproduction has long stopped being driven on who is the most intelligent or best at anything.  Heck there are hundreds of thousands who have kids and cannot support them and keep doing so.

 

The only reason no divergence in human evolution can take place is that biological isolation of a survivable population of any specific group is not feasible when we can go around the world in a couple days.  This may change once space opens up.  The need for logic in order to survive will return for those going out there; reasoning skills will be paramount.  But down here...  you just need to know how to go to a mundane job, get paid for whatever service you provide, and then use that payment to take care of the essentials.  Until people allow the unskilled workforce to be completely replaced by mechanized labor.



Pipinghot #402 Posted Jun 18 2016 - 21:43

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View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

Except we have started to reach a point where technology can make up for lackings in intelligence (as long as one can handle basic communication one can survive).  Logic as a study is not needed by the masses, nor is it understood well.

 

We don't live in society where genuine intelligence is required for survival.  We live in a society that cares more about what memes and vines you can recite than what major breakthrough you made in science.  We live in a society that values entertainment more than education, to the point that the news media has become entertainment first, opinions second, facts third at best.


Reproduction has long stopped being driven on who is the most intelligent or best at anything.  Heck there are hundreds of thousands who have kids and cannot support them and keep doing so.

 

The only reason no divergence in human evolution can take place is that biological isolation of a survivable population of any specific group is not feasible when we can go around the world in a couple days.  This may change once space opens up.  The need for logic in order to survive will return for those going out there; reasoning skills will be paramount.  But down here...  you just need to know how to go to a mundane job, get paid for whatever service you provide, and then use that payment to take care of the essentials.  Until people allow the unskilled workforce to be completely replaced by mechanized labor.

You're lacking historical context.

 

Everything you just said has variations going back at least as far as Rome. Probably further, it would be surprising if there wasn't a cuneiform tablet somewhere that says, "People today have it so easy..."

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

Logic as a study is not needed by the masses, nor is it understood well.

It has never been studied nor well understood by the masses, any notion that people in the past made a greater study of logic is false.

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

We don't live in society where genuine intelligence is required for survival.

The only people who have ever required genuine intelligence for survival are people who go it alone. In any society people only have to know enough to learn a skill that lets them put food on the table, skills which are learned and repeated by wrote. Carpenters don't "invent" carpentry with each new generation, cooks don't "invent" cooking with every generation, etc. The only new jobs are those that are created by new technologies (like electricity), and the people who create new technologies are always a miniscule percentage of the population as a whole. "Genuine intelligence" has never been required for survival since the dawn of civilization, only the ability to live in a society.

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

We live in a society that cares more about what memes and vines you can recite than what major breakthrough you made in science.

Again, that has always been true. The bulk of society has never been interested in advances, only what benefits them personally.

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

We live in a society that values entertainment more than education, to the point that the news media has become entertainment first, opinions second, facts third at best.

That has also always been true. The very idea that the news media are supposed to provide genuine journalism that is based primarily on facts and unbiased basically a brand new idea. That idea is having a difficult go of it currently, only time will tell if it regains traction. Throughout history, most people have only valued education inasmuch as it helps them gain a better position in society, the number of people who value education above entertainment has always been fairly small.

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

The only reason no divergence in human evolution can take place is that biological isolation of a survivable population of any specific group is not feasible when we can go around the world in a couple days.

You're basically supporting my previous post. One of the side affects of human mobility is that advances generally travel through the global population over time (sometimes very quickly). Advances carry everyone forward, there cannot be a minority group that evolves to be superior within a larger population of their own species.

 

(Side note: The movement of advances and ideas can be fitful at times, if you're interested in this topic you should read Guns, Germs an Steel, it's a fascinating book about advances in human societies).

 

And the effects of mobility go back much farther than you think. It has been a very, very long time since it was possible for a branch of humanity to evolve separately from the rest. The last major splinter branch died off (or merged with H. Sapiens) about 40,000 years ago. You don't need modern mobility for advances to spread.

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

This may change once space opens up.  The need for logic in order to survive will return for those going out there; reasoning skills will be paramount.

True, but not pertinent to this discussion. Humanity, as a whole, has been advancing together since the very beginning. We're far past the point where there can be any pockets on earth in which "A minority continues to advance" while the majority around them does not.

 

View Postaswitz87, on Jun 17 2016 - 18:13, said:

But down here...  you just need to know how to go to a mundane job, get paid for whatever service you provide, and then use that payment to take care of the essentials.  Until people allow the unskilled workforce to be completely replaced by mechanized labor.

So... just like the rest of human history. All that people have ever needed is a niche that lets them provide a service that is valuable to others, that's what a society is. Humans are not solitary animals, we form societies and have always done so.


Edited by Pipinghot, Jun 18 2016 - 23:35.


Flarvin #403 Posted Jun 18 2016 - 23:07

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View Postdmckay, on Jun 16 2016 - 22:26, said:

If the History Channel had any balls it would put out a documentary of the horrific "carnage" suffered by German armor in Normandy/France and Russia.  Hardly any German armor got out of France after the allied break-out.  Check out the Faliase Pocket. It was a stampede with the Shermans, TD's, artillery allied air, etc. hot on their azz. A defeat of immense proportions.  I give the Germans credit for holding as long as they did that summer in Normandy but they had great defensive ground in the hedgerow country, The data is in this thread.  Some just chose to ignore it.  ALL tanks in WWII were targets and ALL of them got shot to sh#t. All of them.  The ones that got shot to sh#t the most were the Tigers and Panthers. They were simply an inferior/ineffective design.  COOL looking and I bought into that as a kid. Sucked overall however. That is just the truth.  Very one dimensional tanks. 

 

For one I have seen history channel programs show what happen in the faliase pocket, and the pictures of the destroyed German tanks. The same with the Russian front. 

 

The faliase pocket had nothing to do with the quality of the German tanks. It had all to do with the orders to hold and to even try a major counterattack, when their positions were completely flanked. Which led to the German army in Normandy surrounded except a single choke point to try to escape from. Which was a field day for allied aircraft and arty, which had targets massed together. 



dmckay #404 Posted Jun 19 2016 - 01:29

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View PostFlarvin, on Jun 18 2016 - 17:07, said:

 

For one I have seen history channel programs show what happen in the faliase pocket, and the pictures of the destroyed German tanks. The same with the Russian front. 

 

The faliase pocket had nothing to do with the quality of the German tanks. It had all to do with the orders to hold and to even try a major counterattack, when their positions were completely flanked. Which led to the German army in Normandy surrounded except a single choke point to try to escape from. Which was a field day for allied aircraft and arty, which had targets massed together. 

 

Good points.  Also, if I recall correctly, Bradley knew the Mortain attack was coming tks to Ultra.

R_Razor #405 Posted Jun 19 2016 - 02:27

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View PostDiePanzerGeist, on Jun 09 2016 - 10:53, said:

 

Funny how someone complaining about "american's  have huge ego " is only proving themselves a typical pompous [edited] and an expert in ignorance that thinks all Americans drive around swilling beer in their redneck pick-up trucks. Got to love an idiot that is told hes wrong and throws out the "nationality" card right away as their defense.

 

Anyway, as to your claims of "false credibility" I was trained and educated in armor history, doctrine, and tactics at Ft. Knox Kentucky (U.S. Army School of Armor), served in 3rd Platoon  D Co. 2/37th AR stationed in Rose Barracks, Vilseck Germany (.aka Grafenwoehr) where I served as the gunner of an M1A1 Abrams MBT, deployed to combat during Desert Storm and other theaters of operation. Have studied the writings of George S. Patton, Hans Guderian, and Erwin Rommel just to name a few. Both of my Grandfathers served during WW2...one in Artillery and the other (gasp) was a Sherman Tank Crewman, my Father and Uncle served during Vietnam for several tours. Do I expect you to believe me...no, do I really care...no.

 

...carry on. :honoring:

 

(edit: you really like ninja editing your post don't you?)

 

Minor point, Vilseck and Graf are two COMPLETELY different locations, not calling you a liar here but that's a pretty big detail to be "mistaken" on.

shapeshifter #406 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 03:16

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View PostWulfeHound, on Jun 17 2016 - 15:05, said:

View Postshapeshifter, on Jun 17 2016 - 10:06, said:

They built an M4A3E8 with a T26 turret and the 90mm gun. It was used in testing for at least 2000 miles.

 

It was actually an M4 (105) that they dropped a T26 turret onto.

 

They did more then one M4 with a T26 type turret.

 

What they said about the T26 turrets in general (basically if it has a 69" ring it will fit) They stuck one on an M6 as well.

 

 

 

 

This is the one we have photos of I think.

 

 

Plans start to form for a test on the E8

 

 

And here much later they report the completion of the test. I have data on test results as well showing how the M4A2E8 handles 102,000 lbs of weight.

 

 

 

 

 

 



WulfeHound #407 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 04:04

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I stand corrected. Thanks shapeshifter, and interesting documents

Furysghost #408 Posted Jul 07 2016 - 20:01

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View PostWulfeHound, on Jun 30 2016 - 19:04, said:

I stand corrected. Thanks shapeshifter, and interesting documents

 

OK lma put this on the calendar....haha




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