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Defence at Ortona


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Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 #41 Posted Jun 29 2016 - 23:32

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Jun 29 2016 - 10:18, said:

 

I am in full agreement that the contribution was significant, but I'm afraid to say that many in the US have a somewhat underappreciating position as regards other nations. Saying that the extent of the Canadian involvement is often overlooked by those outside of Canada, which it is, in no way diminishes the value of that involvement. How many Americans (or even Brits) have even heard of Vimy Ridge, let alone can speak with any knowledge of it? Does acknowledging that ignorance in any way detract from the event?

 

oh my point is not that you were wrong in your assessment...naturally that's true.

 

Its more how it was expressed. Again..i know what you were saying and acknowledged that you meant no harm..and honestly took no offense...simply expressed that i objected to way in which it was said.

 

Its only that words do count when were talking about each other...how we choose to assess things and the words we use do have meaning beyond the pure numbers of historical contributions that Canada has made. Again, i  know you mean no harm..just wanted to express that it coudl have been said in a less dismissive light.

 

Naturally you're free to express yourself anyway you wish, and i feel free to express an objection to that phrasing.

 

:)

 

View PostCapturedJoe, on Jun 29 2016 - 09:52, said:

Like I said... compared to the other allies.

Wikipedia says prewar population of 11 million Canadians.

 

 Change that to "when the Red army invaded the country and the fascist government was overthrown by a royalist coup". They were already losing for 2 years before that.

 

538,536 Romanian soldiers in allied frontline service, of which 169,822 were lost fighting the Germans and Hungarians (source: Mark Axworthy). And that in less than a year!

 

Joe,

If youd like to continue to this debate in email im open to that..but you dont owe Canada or me anything...Canadian lives were lost to liberate Netherlands, a hospital room was made Dutch territory so your royal families birth could remain Dutch...etc etc..we have deep bonds of friendship as nations, but that doesn't mean you cant disagree with me or anything like that.

 

But we've both said our peace, and lets leave this thread on the topic of Ortona.

 

On topic:

 

someone mentioned earlier Farley Mowat (famous Cdn author)...he wrote a great book about his service with the Hasty P's (Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment) well worth a read about the campaign in Italy and covers the Moro river crossing.

 

And No Birds Sang

https://www.amazon.c...t/dp/1771000309

 

 



BigJohnsonLogan #42 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 03:44

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Let's see the official Canadian Army version of this battle ...

 


Edited by BigJohnsonLogan, Jun 30 2016 - 03:50.


Isola_di_Fano #43 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 04:46

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View PostThe_Chieftain, on Jun 20 2016 - 15:07, said:

 

It’s perhaps easy to forget, but the Canadians did actually pull their weight in WW2, overshadowed as they are in popular culture by the Americans and British. So, given as it’s coming up on Canada Day and all, I thought we’d have a look at the scene of what was probably the most vicious fighting that the Canadians undertook, the battle of Ortona.

 

Anyone interested in reading and learning a bit more about Canada at war could browse the following link

 

http://www.canadaatwar.ca/

 

also, the war production of Canada, quite impressive

 

http://www.canadaatwar.ca/content-17/world-war-ii/canadian-war-industry/

 

many other links in there worth looking into ....

 

 



Dratt_Dastardly #44 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 11:57

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I'm still waiting on the next installment of the story.  :)

 

And I do believe Canada's efforts, along with Australia's and New Zealand's, wrongfully gets accredited to the United Kingdom.  But unlike India, those three nations were independent governments.  Just ones that had strong ties Britain, especially Canada.  

 

 



shinglefoot #45 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 16:11

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     A proud Canadian here...never ever underestimate the determination, will and bravery of a Canadian.

 

True North strong and free!



MiraclesHappen #46 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 19:18

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9th AF

Carpet bomb the joint with B25s.

Maybe see if there is a DD around that would like 5 inch practice.

No reason to knock heads in a warren like that.



MiraclesHappen #47 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 19:24

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View PostCapturedJoe, on Jun 29 2016 - 15:27, said:

 

Romania contributed more soldiers to the allied cause (after August 23, 1944) than Canada, and nobody remembers their sacrifices. Everybody knows about the Canucks kicking the Germans out of the Netherlands. Don't act so offended, please.

 

Not sure sacrifices for the Reich really counts.

CapturedJoe #48 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 19:32

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:facepalm:

MiraclesHappen #49 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 19:52

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Wut?

CapturedJoe #50 Posted Jun 30 2016 - 21:08

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View PostMiraclesHappen, on Jun 30 2016 - 19:52, said:

Wut?

 

You might want to actually read the post you quoted before replying to it.

Ubiquinate #51 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 00:34

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Ortona, that's a battle I haven't heard mentioned in a long time. If anyone is curious, I believe Mark Zuehlka wrote a book on it, along with another forgotten Canadian Italy adventure in the Liri Valley. We got the short end of the stick almost throughout the war, given all the difficult assignments, and still succeeded. Hell the main reason we were in Italy in the first place was to give General Crerar proper command training for the Normandy landings.

 

Personally though I rate the Scheldt as the worse campaign, it was pointless, never needed to happen, treated as secondary by Montgomery, and offered a pretty good interpretation of World War 1 trench fighting. My parents were friends with the man who was Guy Simmonds' sergeant major, and he refused to discuss that period at all.



DV_Currie_VC #52 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 06:52

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Loyal Edmonton Regiment. "Fears No Foe."

 

http://lermuseum.org/

 

I proudly served next to these guys, and count many of them as my friends. Thanks for pointing out their historical record of service.

 

Semper Alacer



Anlushac11 #53 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 13:25

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Fallujah+Mouse-holing

GWalk710 #54 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 15:42

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I was a member of the Loyal Edmonton Regiment for 24+ years. My unit was one of the units that fought at Ortona and came up with the house-clearing tactics that are still used today. I was lucky enough to be in Ortona for the 60th Anniversary of that battle, and the hell that those boys went through....wow, just WOW. I could see why the town was so difficult to take from the Germans.

FangTheCat #55 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 16:12

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The Chieftan British?

 

oooh - that's you off his Christmas card list.

 

As for the 'light the blue touch paper' moment

 

I think perhaps you have to appreciate that when somebody (like the Chieftain) puts something into the public domain they have to pitch it at a level for the general public and assume that the level of knowledge is around the 'history channel' level.

 

Anybody who has put some effort into looking at WW2 in the West will know that it wasn't just Patton tearing up the beaches of Normandy (some folk are surprised to find he wasn't even involved in D-Day) and then Cobra'ing into France and then Remagening over the bridge it into Germany, it was a coalition of several nations bashing their way through to Germany and the final surrender.

 

However given that the US have the biggest media industry it's not suprising that 99% of the films are made by Americans for Americans and those few that are not (A Bridge too Far, I'm looking at you) will portray the US forces in usually a more favourable light than the other Allies - just look at the potential audiences, it makes sense.

 

So for those that have been 'educated' by Hollywood and the History Channel it often good that a timely reminder comes along to highlight the contribution of the other Allies.

 

So Go Maple Leaf!



WalkerSteele #56 Posted Jul 01 2016 - 17:33

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Let's all take offense wherever we can - its so productive.


 

You guys whine more than a bunch of Leafs fans.


 

Anyone who has spent enough time on the history of WWII knows the impressive record of Canadian forces, Chieftain made an effort to highlight that record, through Ortona, perhaps you as Canadians would understand he wasn't speaking directly to an Canadian military history group, but to the august geniuses that make up much of the audience on the front page of WOT.


 

And Happy Canada Day.


 


 


 


 



StrmnNrmn #57 Posted Jul 03 2016 - 06:25

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View Poststalkervision, on Jun 29 2016 - 14:02, said:

 

  ​You may want to look into a little minor Canadian operation about clearing the port of Antwerp dude.  :amazed:

 

  

 

Trust me, I am not ignorant about Canadian actions in Europe.  Yes, that was major, but taking Ortona was still a significant victory on the march to Rome. The Canadians bled from the bottom of the boot to the top. I am in no way trying to overshadow anything else that they accomplished, but I feel that too few know about what they did for the allied war effort in Italy.

MiraclesHappen #58 Posted Jul 03 2016 - 15:58

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View PostCapturedJoe, on Jun 30 2016 - 21:08, said:

 

You might want to actually read the post you quoted before replying to it.

 

Yeah I saw that stuff and nonsense about how much they did after the war neared its conclusion. I find the numbers suspect to say the least. Most Romanian soldiers died in Russia, fighting Russians, not allied with them. And lets not forget what the war crimes they perpetrated, which were numerous.

A last minute coup to overthrow the nazi regime they'd supported for years is too little too late. If the plot against Hitler has succeeded would Germany suddenly become heroic?

Not to downplay the tragedy of the soldier's loss. That is as sad as any other human demise and suffering. And any honor they forged on the field for themselves remains despite their cause.


But as a nation Romania can claim no honor from WWII.

IMO.

But that's just my opinion. If you're of Romanian descent or citizenship, feel free to be as proud as you like.


Edited by MiraclesHappen, Jul 03 2016 - 16:00.


CapturedJoe #59 Posted Jul 03 2016 - 17:58

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Looks like you missed the point... again.

Hanz_Gooblemienhoffen_42 #60 Posted Jul 04 2016 - 16:57

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Another good source about Canadian battles in Ortona..Regiments involved, some war diaries etc.

 

http://www.canadaatwar.ca/page44.html






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