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APCR rebalance


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mr_lummox #1 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:17

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A suggestion for a rebalance on APCR usage.

 

Decrease the percentage of damage in direct correlation to the increase in penetration. 

 

So a 20% in pen gets you 20% less damage, then when people sling APCR to avoid knowing weak spots they are not rewarded with full damage like they are today. 



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #2 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:20

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keep in mind that unlike HEAT, APCR loses pen

 

in addition, tier 10 meds use APCR as default ammo.   so decreasing their dmg wouldn't be good.

 

 

also, "weakspots" tend to be dissapearing from tanks nowadays......(aka people fire gold cause weakspots are either non existant, or insanely strong for a weakspot.    like easy 8 fighting tier 8s.   its gold round isn't even enough to pen alot of tier 8 weakspots on stuff like is-6, or is-3.    so god help its normal round which is even worse)

 

 

so instead of saying APCR, you should say "GOLD" as that looks at the high pen rounds, not the base pen rounds tanks get.

 

that way we know u mean gold.   and not the normal ammo for tier X meds, or T71/m41 bulldog, french m4.

(just cause its APCR Doesn't mean its high pen.   if its a gold round its higher pen)


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 15:23.


__Tec__ #3 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:20

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The idea that people shoot apcr because they don't know weakspots is nearly as ludicrous as, i cant see you and you hit me so you're a hacker.  Please don't perpetuate the ignorance.

mr_lummox #4 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:24

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I play mostly mid tier (5-8) so I don't see people firing HEAT a lot.

Now APCR I see a LOT, especially when I drive around my KV-3; people don't even attempt to shoot AP at that tank.  The KV-3 is far from a auto bounce tank.

 

When my scorpion is getting hit by APCR there are people out there not bothering with AP to start with.

 

I don't want to see APCR removed, but people should not get the same damage reward as normal AP rounds.  APCR is a smaller denser projectile so it would not do as much damage in the "real world".


Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 15:31.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #5 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:31

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 07:24, said:

I play mostly mid tier (5-8) so I don't see people firing HEAT a lot.

Now APCR I see a LOT recently especially when I drive around my KV-3, people don't even attempt to shoot AP at that tank.

 

When my scorpion is getting hit by APCR there are people out there not bothering with AP to start with.

 

I don't want to see APCR removed, but people should not get the same damage reward as normal AP rounds.  APCR is a smaller denser projectile so it would not do as much damage in the "real world".

 

HEAT is as common at all tiers as APCR at tier 4+

 

so classify as gold.  not "APCR"

and tier 5-8?

tanks that fire gold by default there are T71, M41 bulldog. both tier 7s.

french m4, a tier 8

 

and god knows the 59-16's APCR wont hurt you. its a tier 6 scout with only 106pen on its gold APCR

 

 

also, gold APCR costs more than same dmg HEAT to use.    so making it do less dmg wouldn't help.    

also. tanks like easy 8, or jumbo, or hell some light tanks who have to fight higher tiers like e75, IS-6, IS-3, even KV-5 or KV-4.   need gold as their normal rounds are crap.    if they get nerfed dmg for those rounds, then they are in even more of a worse position.

 

so no.  gold APCR is fine for some tanks.

 

 

 

thats the problem, your saying "nerf apcr" globally.

and not "nerf gold rounds of some tanks that don't need it"

 

there are tanks that need gold cause WG screwed their normal guns over with the tanks they see.

and then there are tanks who don't need gold but use it anyway



German1337 #6 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:31

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I laugh when people thing that premium rounds are shot just to "avoid having to aim for weakspots" anyone who plays well knows when its time to switch over. if i have a 25% shot at pen with regular AND I have to wait that extra aim time for it or I can switch to premium and get a 75% chance on twice the bloom.... well that decision is part of what gets you a lot of damage. There is already an in game deterrent to using premium and that is the cost. The fun thing is, if you are good enough you know how to balance it and still make money. (or you accept that you play for fun and run around in a pz1c slinging gold blowing 50-100k credits a game)

mr_lummox #7 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:36

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Cost is far from a deterrent, credits are easy to earn to cover the costs.  German1337 in your post you make that very point there no deterrent to usage. 

 

But the fact someone can just sling APCR (those tanks where it is not default) to their hearts content doing the same damage of AP is a bit of an issue.

 

It gets WG to do this "re-balancing" that is going to make armour mean more?  Why not just make people play with more AP which does the same effect.

But you want to shoot APCR have at it you just have to take 1-2 more shots, which evens things out nicely.

 


Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 15:37.


Seguita #8 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:41

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 14:36, said:

Cost is far from a deterrent, credits are easy to earn to cover the costs.  German1337 in your post you make that very point there no deterrent to usage. 

 

But the fact someone can just sling APCR (those tanks where it is not default) to their hearts content doing the same damage of AP is a bit of an issue.

 

It gets WG to do this "re-balancing" that is going to make armour mean more?  Why not just make people play with more AP which does the same effect.

But you want to shoot APCR have at it you just have to take 1-2 more shots, which evens things out nicely.

 

 

why wg dont teach how angle ur armor best...

German1337 #9 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:42

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 09:36, said:

Cost is far from a deterrent, credits are easy to earn to cover the costs.  German1337 in your post you make that very point there no deterrent to usage. 

 

But the fact someone can just sling APCR (those tanks where it is not default) to their hearts content doing the same damage of AP is a bit of an issue.

 

It gets WG to do this "re-balancing" that is going to make armour mean more?  Why not just make people play with more AP which does the same effect.

But you want to shoot APCR have at it you just have to take 1-2 more shots, which evens things out nicely.

 

 

Well you could also get into the modified penetration drop off, change in shell velocity, and different penetration behaviors as deterrent as well in addition to cost. I'm not saying premium shells are bad but they are not "hue hue hue autopen noskill" whiffed shots with premium are far more painful than regular shots and all those factors effect that

the_fartist #10 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:44

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gold, apcr, it's all good. you can tell when you are hit with it, it's really not an issue compared to other issue we have in the game with balance


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #11 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:45

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 07:36, said:

Cost is far from a deterrent, credits are easy to earn to cover the costs.  German1337 in your post you make that very point there no deterrent to usage. 

 

But the fact someone can just sling APCR (those tanks where it is not default) to their hearts content doing the same damage of AP is a bit of an issue.

 

It gets WG to do this "re-balancing" that is going to make armour mean more?  Why not just make people play with more AP which does the same effect.

But you want to shoot APCR have at it you just have to take 1-2 more shots, which evens things out nicely.

 

 

because an easy 8 shooting 115 dmg APCR with 177 pen for 2800 credits EACH at an IS-3 or IS-6 that the 177pen is not even guarenteed to pen their weakspots.    is already a MASSIVE loss of credits

 

now you want to reduce that 115dmg by 20%.     so its paying 2800 credits that do 92 dmg?!?!?   with 177 pen vs IS-3 and IS-6s....

 

92 dmg.....

 

lets do math

currently.  115dmg rounds take 13-14 rounds(if all pen) to kill an Is-3 or IS-6.     and its had enough to pen.

 

that costs 37k credits.

 

 

u want to force easy 8 to do 92 dmg.....which means 17 rounds at minimum.  provided all pen.    which is 45k credits..

 

to kill an IS-6 or IS-3......provided all HIT  or pen

 

oh right. and your accuracy is bleh.  its not the .34 of russian meds.   but .39.....aka .01 less than IS-3.

 

 

 

 

my Easy 8 has a message to you.  on behalf of all tier 6s with under 150 pen who have to fight IS-3 and IS-6s.

"see this shovel?  eat it.   eat it as i run you over and harvest what remains of you for the credits your going to cost me to fight tanks i see in over 70% of my battles"

 

you know. KV-85 has 175 pen.  firefly has 171....they get my gold rounds FOR NORMAL AMMO.   at 1/10th the cost!

 

 



mr_lummox #12 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:47

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Look this balance already exists with HE, with high alpha low pen just reverse the idea.

 

What I would like to see is those that learn to angle and know weak spots get rewarded with the ability to survive 1-2 more shots over someone using APCR.

 

I got a bit irked last night when facing a Tiger 1 with my KV-3 and all they did was throw APCR after APCR to over match the turret armour to kill me.  Where if their alpha was reduced they would've needed one more shot to kill me and I would won the engagement using AP.  The use of APCR made the KV-3's armour pointless in the engagement and rate of fire meant everything.  

 

Crying about a Easy 8 is funny considering most of my games are in lights where I have to pick my targets to do any damage, so no sympathy from me on it costing you a bunch. 

 

But you make a good point reduce alpha and cost then everyone is happy.


Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 15:51.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #13 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:49

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 07:47, said:

 

I got a bit irked last night when facing a Tiger 1 with my KV-3 and all they did was APCR after APCR to over match the turret to kill me.  Where if their alpha was reduced they would've needed one more shot to kill me and I would won the engagement using AP.  The use of APCR made the KV-3's armour pointless in the engagement and rate meant everything.  

LOL

 

tiger 1 has 203 pen. it doesn't need gold to rip you apart

 

its gold has 237 pen....such an increase wow.......   if its penning you with APCR( which gets LESS normalization than AP.   and loses pen FASTER),  then its AP would pen you fine.  

 

angle your armor.

and then prepare for my easy 8 to shiv ya -.-

 

 

P.S.

i'm gonna throw a baseball sized rock at ya

and then i'm gonna shoot you with a tiny BB from a BB gun.

 

tell me which hurts more.  its your AP vs APCR theory again.


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 15:54.


GeorgePreddy #14 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:52

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 11:24, said:

 

I don't want to see APCR removed, but people should not get the same damage reward as normal AP rounds.  APCR is a smaller denser projectile so it would not do as much damage in the "real world".

 

The problem with the above statement is that, being more dense and often having a considerably higher speed, the kinetic energy of a gold round is often MOAR than an AP round and therefore could cause MOAR dmg than an AP round due to the extra remaining kinetic energy after breeching the target's armor.  So, I think gold rounds should do MOAR dmg (actually a few gold round types in WoT are already awarded MOAR dmg).

mr_lummox #15 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:54

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I was angling and had a dead tank covering the hull, so rate of fire along with the pen gave the advantage.  Where if I would've bounced just one round (couldn't because of the over match math) or if APCR alpha was reduced I would've survived.  

Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 15:54.


DV_Currie_VC #16 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:57

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 07:17, said:

A suggestion for a rebalance on APCR usage.

 

Decrease the percentage of damage in direct correlation to the increase in penetration. 

 

So a 20% in pen gets you 20% less damage, then when people sling APCR to avoid knowing weak spots they are not rewarded with full damage like they are today. 

Just get rid of it altogether. That, or limit it to a max of 10% of your loadout.



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #17 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:57

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 07:54, said:

I was angling and had a dead tank covering the hull, so rate of fire along with the pen gave the advantage.  Where if I would've bounced just one round (couldn't because of the over match math) or if APCR alpha was reduced I would've survived.  

 

LOL

your in a KV-3

 

the Tiger 1's 203pen can PEN YOUR TURRET WITH EASE.

it doesn't need 237APCR....which is actually WORSE vs the rounded KV-3 turret.    because APCR doesn't reduce the effects of angling as much as AP.

 

btw. my easy 8 is here. and it brought its shiv.  tell it you want to nerf its 177pen gold round. see what happens

 

View PostDV_Currie_VC, on Jun 22 2016 - 07:57, said:

Just get rid of it altogether. That, or limit it to a max of 10% of your loadout.

 

easy 8 needs more than 10% of its loadout to be gold to fight tier 8s.

 

 


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 15:58.


the_fartist #18 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 15:59

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 06:54, said:

I was angling and had a dead tank covering the hull, so rate of fire along with the pen gave the advantage.  Where if I would've bounced just one round (couldn't because of the over match math) or if APCR alpha was reduced I would've survived.  

 

 
no!!!!!!          they would have kept shooting till boom your dead


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #19 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:01

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P.S. you don't know how overmatch works

if its gun CALIBER is 2x your armor. it gets bonus pen

if its 3x your armor. it auto pens

tiger 1 uses a 8.8cm gun.    aka 88mm.    so it autopens everything with like 26mm of armor.  and gets bonus pen vs everything with like 44mm armor

 

aka AP vs APCR don't matter. at ALL when it coems to overmatching.   only the gun CALIBER


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 16:02.


mr_lummox #20 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:03

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View Post303rd_armored_cav, on Jun 22 2016 - 14:59, said:

 

 
no!!!!!!          they would have kept shooting till boom your dead

 

They had like 30 health left after my last shot so they would not of keep shooting until boom, since they would've been dead and i would've driven away.

I was rate of fire that won and no amount of angling would've done jack.

 

Funny how testy you heavy and medium drivers seem get on this topic.  I play mostly lights and TD's where armour means nothing and I rarely use gold in those tanks.  But with the way WG wants to force heavies to brawl armour really means nothing; so something needs to change to not just people to sling over match ammo to win.   






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