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APCR rebalance


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mr_lummox #21 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:04

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Jun 22 2016 - 15:01, said:

P.S. you don't know how overmatch works

if its gun CALIBER is 2x your armor. it gets bonus pen

if its 3x your armor. it auto pens

tiger 1 uses a 8.8cm gun.    aka 88mm.    so it autopens everything with like 26mm of armor.  and gets bonus pen vs everything with like 44mm armor

 

aka AP vs APCR don't matter. at ALL when it coems to overmatching.   only the gun CALIBER

 

My mistake then.

So pray tell then why would a Tiger 1 driver throw nothing but APCR if the standard AP rounds would work just fine?

 

I am seeing this happen EVERYTIME in my KV-3 when meeting a equal or one tier up opponent. 


Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 16:05.


commander42 #22 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:06

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 10:04, said:

 

My mistake then.

So pray tell then why would a Tiger 1 driver throw nothing but APCR if the standard AP rounds would work just fine?

 

I am seeing this happen EVERYTIME in my KV-3 when meeting a equal or one tier up opponent.

 

it might be a glitch with your mod that is telling you what shell type they are using, or they are just being dumb and spamming gold

65Camino #23 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:08

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I'm with Strike Witch on this one. Nothing to do here, please move along (or get shivved, you big wienie),

mr_lummox #24 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:11

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Why don't you just to learn to flank with that Easy8 to get the sides and backs of heavies?  

 

That's what i have to do with my lights and i see 3 tiers up. 

 

I get the feeling some of you like the advantage APCR gives you so you will fight tooth and nail to keep it, fair enough.

 

 


Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 16:12.


German1337 #25 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:11

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 10:04, said:

So pray tell then why would a Tiger 1 driver throw nothing but APCR if the standard AP rounds would work just fine?

 

I am seeing this happen EVERYTIME in my KV-3 when meeting a equal or one tier up opponent. 

Because some people *cough cough* don't understand game mechanics and think spamming premium is always the best way to pen and so should do less damage :hiding:



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #26 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:11

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 08:04, said:

 

My mistake then.

So pray tell then why would a Tiger 1 driver throw nothing but APCR if the standard AP rounds would work just fine?

 

I am seeing this happen EVERYTIME in my KV-3 when meeting a equal or one tier up opponent. 

why would it use APCR?

 

shell speed? if your hiding behidn a wreck as you claim. poking in an out.  its using APCR to get its shell to hit you faster before you hide again.

 

or maybe it just had APCR loaded and it doesn't care.

 

 

heres a picture.

the green and yellow is the area it can pen.

the red is where it can't pen and purple is autobounce.

 

             <AP

<APCR

 

 

theres no real difference in the pennable area.    yellow and green are same.

 

red and purple are same.

 

APCR has a bit more green, but considering the AP's % chance to pen in yellow is 82%.    its not really a difference.

 

 

View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 08:11, said:

Why don't you just to learn to flank with that Easy8 to get the sides and backs of heavies?  

 

That's what i have to do with my lights and i see 3 tiers up. 

 

because i got 128 pen.

 

go look at the armor of IS-6, Is-3, KV-4, KV-5.

and then look at the traverse of IS-3 and IS-6.  and KV-5

 

or the view range of KV-4 and KV-5.

 

look at their alpha

 

aka, i can't pen side of KV-4 and KV-5.

 

IS-3 and IS-6 can turn to keep their front to me, and even if i get on their side, i can't pen IS-6 due to T-22sr side armor, or spaced armor, or jsut thick as hell armor.

 

and they can murder me in 2 shots.

not to mention they'll see me coming from WAY before i get in range to circle.

 

 

i can circle KV-4 sure.....but oh w8. where the hell do i pen it.  its rear?  yeah...cause thats realistic in a tunnel map battle

 

 

 

if i was in a KV-85 or firefly. i'd have 170+ pen by DEFAULT.   with INSANE pen gold round for my tier.

 

but no. i'm an easy 8 WG decided to screw over by giving me 128 pen.  and forced to watch other tanks fire AP rounds with my APCR round's pen........for 1/10 the cost i pay......and they got superior gold rounds.

 


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 16:18.


Hellsfog #27 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:16

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This is only the 485,599,496,692 time this idea has been turned into a thread. It should be titled, "I found a way to gimp bottom tier tanks even more in +/-2 MM"

mr_lummox #28 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:18

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Dude I have the same issues driving lights against Tier IX and X's so you get no sympathy from me. 

Circle a E100 with a wz-131 and you want to talk about no pen.

 

Humm maybe the other idea of limiting the amount of premium ammo you can carry is a better idea.

 

 



Strike_Witch_Tomoko #29 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:22

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 08:18, said:

Dude I have the same issues driving lights against Tier IX and X's so you get no sympathy from me. 

Circle a E100 with a wz-131 and you want to talk about no pen.

 

Humm maybe the other idea of limiting the amount of premium ammo you can carry is a better idea.

 

 

 

WZ-131 has hp/t

terrain resist

top speed

CAMO ON THE MOVE

241 pen gold round (aka enough to pen #100's side easily)

 

accuracy, gun handling, reverse speed.

 

aka its a frigged rocket with a camo net and a powerful gold round that can pen tier 10s FRONTALLY.

 

 

 

Easy 8 is not camo'd.   its not insanely mobile (slower than T-34-85).    it doesn't get a gold round that can pen top tier tanks frontally.    it doesn't get accuracy.   its gun handling is worse than WZ-131.    its reverse speed is average.

 

 

 

add to all that, WZ-131 is a scout.

easy 8 is not a scout.    WZ-131 can do easy 8's role in battle (flanker, dpm, 2nd line fire support)  better than it.  hell T37 can do it better.   actually KV-85 can do it better. m6 can do it better.  jackson and firefly can do it better


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 16:23.


German1337 #30 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:40

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I'm beginning to think this isn't about premium rounds anymore and more about E8 butthurt  akin to peoples original tiger isnt op? butthurt

Strike_Witch_Tomoko #31 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:45

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View PostGerman1337, on Jun 22 2016 - 08:40, said:

I'm beginning to think this isn't about premium rounds anymore and more about E8 butthurt  akin to peoples original tiger isnt op? butthurt

 

its about classifying all gold rounds as "OP"  when some tanks need it,   and others don't.

 

for example, is there anyoen who would disagree T-44 needs gold rounds to fight tier 10s?

is there anyone who would disagree ISU-152's gold rounds are overkill when its normal round is deadly enough?

 

 

there are tanks that need gold to fight stuff they see.   and there a tanks who don't need gold, but use it anyway.

 

easy 8 is just one of the big examples as its the easiest to point out as struggling vs top tier.

 

 



blackfalconjc #32 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 16:56

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How about NO!!!

 

Some tanks just have crappy pen, it is what it is. Some tanks need to use premium ammo if they wish to competitively face +2 tiers higher. APCR and HEAT, while annoying, reflect the current game meta that it's better to use speed and agility to avoid getting hit versus just taking the hit. Since realistically, a tank on tank fight could be over in a single hit, they've given us this wonderful arcade game where shells do damage, and pen is based on a numbers of factors. Don't like APCR spam? Get hidden, get mobile. 

 

And yeah, I've been hit by Premium spam, and I've also slung it shamelessly in my Super Persh. I also use is during CW. But 98% of the time, I'm using normal rounds and using knowledge of your tank's weaknesses and my tanks strengths to ding in shot after shot... Go back and practice, work on the game mechanics basics, and maybe, just maybe, Strike Witches E8 won't shiv you!



mr_lummox #33 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 17:15

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View Postblackfalconjc, on Jun 22 2016 - 15:56, said:

How about NO!!!

 

Some tanks just have crappy pen, it is what it is. Some tanks need to use premium ammo if they wish to competitively face +2 tiers higher. APCR and HEAT, while annoying, reflect the current game meta that it's better to use speed and agility to avoid getting hit versus just taking the hit. Since realistically, a tank on tank fight could be over in a single hit, they've given us this wonderful arcade game where shells do damage, and pen is based on a numbers of factors. Don't like APCR spam? Get hidden, get mobile. 

 

And yeah, I've been hit by Premium spam, and I've also slung it shamelessly in my Super Persh. I also use is during CW. But 98% of the time, I'm using normal rounds and using knowledge of your tank's weaknesses and my tanks strengths to ding in shot after shot... Go back and practice, work on the game mechanics basics, and maybe, just maybe, Strike Witches E8 won't shiv you!

 

So in other words play lights and TDs.  Since heavies are really just there so other tanks can farm XP using premium rounds.

Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 17:16.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #34 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 17:21

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 09:15, said:

 

So in other words play lights and TDs.  Since heavies are really just there so other tanks can farm XP using premium rounds.

 

considering TDs are essentially firing gold rounds of heavies and meds for their normal ammo?

 

and no

 

heavies have hp, they have armor(when you learn to angle and sidescrape. which doesn't work for KV-3 except for the hull as the turret is round.  so u need to hide the turret and sidescrape like a tiger

 

when u get to stuff like KV-4, ST-1, IS-4.  aka strong turrets.   you can angle in the open while revealing your turret.

but for KV-3, it, like tiger 1, IS, tiger p, and so on. must hide its turret.

 

also 59-16's 85 pen vs tier 7-9s.........not fun.  106pen gold.   

 

some tanks need gold.

some tanks' gold isn't enough

and some tanks don't need gold (mostly TDs,  but the occasional heavy like ARL 44, or a med like panther 1)


Edited by Strike_Witch_Tomoko, Jun 22 2016 - 17:23.


_NimbleNavigator_ #35 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 17:50

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MANDATORY beating the dead horse post


Edited by _NimbleNavigator_, Jun 22 2016 - 17:55.


blackfalconjc #36 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 17:54

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 11:15, said:

 

So in other words play lights and TDs.  Since heavies are really just there so other tanks can farm XP using premium rounds.

 

Nah all the classes have something to offer. Heavies are not the impervious armored bunkers we're led to believe. Sure they have some armor, but the most successful I've been with Heavies is when I eschew the normal "lumber up and trade shots", and use their strong guns and armor to there best benefits. You also have to view HP as a resource, you have more as a heavy, and your purpose in each match is to systematically remove enemy HP while preserving your own (and silencing enemy guns). American Heavies? Go hull down and bounce everything (except arty :( ) off the turret. Russian heavies are typically more brawlers with good all round armor that may bounce some rounds. Always vision check corners and sidescrape if possible to avoid free shots into your LFP and sides. They also work really good as Medium bullies... French heavies, they're fast and have really good guns/pen. they're more sneaky/opportunistic where you can clip someone out or sneak some shots in from over someones shoulder or snipe. 

 

If you're struggling that much with heavies, it probably means you're not utilizing that class (or tank) to it's particular strengths (while minimizing it's weaknesses) very well. I'd challenge you to try playing other classes and tanks until you find some that you seem to naturally do better in. Better yet, find a class you absolutely suck at, and then watch gameplay videos, read forum articles, and actively try out those strategies in match. About 3k games ago, I sucked at Mediums, played mostly heavies as I thought they were more forgiving. Now I can barely stand the lack of flexibility in heavies and play mostly Mediums/Light/Heaviums (like the IS-2, T110-E5), and I've raised my overall almost 400 WN8, and my recent from 850 to 1710. That's why you'll hear me frowning on making a game change, rarely is it the tank or mechanics, it's far more often the player...


Edited by blackfalconjc, Jun 22 2016 - 18:00.


DUKE_AUTY #37 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 18:16

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I have very little experience in HTs. I'm just not interested in a smash mouth play style. So all this whinging makes me chuckle.

 

This subject could fill a super tanker with all the tears generated over all the posts made about it.

 

I get it. Some of you want to be 90% shell proof 100% of the time. You want a rolling fortress of doom with armor trumping tactics. 

 

When one of my LTs gets one shot by a premo round; I have the satisfaction of knowing the shell costs more than my repair bill.

 

Finally, Why do all you whiners keep playing this game if it's such a burden? 

 

 



mr_lummox #38 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 18:23

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View PostDUKE_AUTY, on Jun 22 2016 - 17:16, said:

When one of my LTs gets one shot by a premo round; I have the satisfaction of knowing the shell costs more than my repair bill.

 

When I see HEAT thrown at my elc or scorpion this is what I think everytime.  :)

 

General comment:

Look I don't want to see premium rounds removed just their impact reduced by the same percentage as pen.  The Easy8 would still get to use APCR to pen just instead of 8 shots it takes 10 to get a kill, so shoot and move the tank around like lights have to do.    

 

 

 


Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 18:23.


Strike_Witch_Tomoko #39 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 18:30

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View Postmr_lummox, on Jun 22 2016 - 10:23, said:

 

When I see HEAT thrown at my elc or scorpion this is what I think everytime.  :)

 

General comment:

Look I don't want to see premium rounds removed just their impact reduced by the same percentage as pen.  The Easy8 would still get to use APCR to pen just instead of 8 shots it takes 10 to get a kill, so shoot and move the tank around like lights have to do.    

 

 

 

 

except easy 8 isn't as mobile as light

it doesn't get camo on the move like lights

its a tall tank

 

 

and 8 vs 10 shots is a big difference.

aka 5.6k credits.  and making the tank WORSE than it already is vs higher tiers

 

 

what your idea is doing is not fixing gold rounds.  its giving high pen tanks that don't need gold rounds a BIGGER advantage than they already have

 

Easy 8 vs firefly.

with your change, easy 8 gets worse than it already is

while firefly is improved because it changes little as it already has such high pen.

its base ammo becomes EVEN BETTER than easy8's gold.

 

so why use easy 8?

 

 

 

 

heres an idea lummox. instead of crying "all apcr needs a nerf".  how about you learn how to angle.  and don't cry when you get penned on a part of the tank that will get penned no matter what.

 

 

 

i've provided you a diagram of propper play for KV-3

View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Jun 22 2016 - 09:21, said:

 

 

 

 

 

i've given you pictures to show the difference you would have seen had it fired AP and not APCR.  aka no difference in your battle

 

View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Jun 22 2016 - 08:11, said:

 

             <AP

<APCR

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the ONLY THING your idea would do.  is screw the balance of the game MORE than it already is.

 

and thats before we look at tanks that use APCR as default ammo.  

 

 

 

i hope arty gets you before my easy 8 does...cause its shiv time



mr_lummox #40 Posted Jun 22 2016 - 18:42

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Strike_Witch_Tomoko#39

 
I had an Easy8 I found it boring and sold it after I got my first stripe, Mastery badge and completed all the medium missions with it; ALL with using the 105mm and HE.
So all your complaining about how hard it is driving that tank is not impressing me one bit.
 
Funny you want to call my idea of balancing APCR to be the inverse of HE as crying yet you have done nothing but cry about how tough it is to play your tank without APCR.  Learn to use your gun depression and shoot through the front drive wheel of other tanks, NO APCR needed.  
 
Although you guys are re-enforcing the notion that lights and td are much better classes to play then med and heavies.  

Edited by mr_lummox, Jun 22 2016 - 18:44.





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