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VinnyI82 #41 Posted Jul 13 2016 - 01:07

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 12 2016 - 08:43, said:

Other than the fact that shooting all premium ammo make you completely broke in a matter of weeks, it has no drawbacks. That's like saying, "Other than the fact that running into a brick wall might wreck your car there are no other drawbacks."

 

Well duh, there aren't any other drawbacks but there don't need to be, that one drawback is huge and prevents people from doing it.

 

On the contrary, you fail to understand that making premium rounds available for credits was a good solution to a problem. Having premium rounds that can only be purchased for gold is a pay-to-win feature. Having premium rounds that can be purchased by anyone in the game who has good judgement about how many premium rounds to carry on each tank is a great fix to that problem. And the very few people who "spam" gold rounds are a self-solving problem, they quickly lose the ability to buy ammo or to buy higher tier tanks.

 

And yet you still failed to see how not having any drawbacks to the premium ammo is.  It's like you completely ignored what I typed.

Premium ammo being sold for silver is NOT the problem.  The PROBLEM is the fact that the entire games armor system is balanced around STANDARD ammunition while having a premium ammo that has practically no drawbacks.



SpitYoYoMafia #42 Posted Jul 13 2016 - 04:36

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 12 2016 - 05:43, said:

Other than the fact that shooting all premium ammo make you completely broke in a matter of weeks, it has no drawbacks. That's like saying, "Other than the fact that running into a brick wall might wreck your car there are no other drawbacks."

 

Well duh, there aren't any other drawbacks but there don't need to be, that one drawback is huge and prevents people from doing it.

 

On the contrary, you fail to understand that making premium rounds available for credits was a good solution to a problem. Having premium rounds that can only be purchased for gold is a pay-to-win feature. Having premium rounds that can be purchased by anyone in the game who has good judgement about how many premium rounds to carry on each tank is a great fix to that problem. And the very few people who "spam" gold rounds are a self-solving problem, they quickly lose the ability to buy ammo or to buy higher tier tanks.

 

Make you broke? I can spam gold in my T110E4 and make a profit because I will make all of my shots penetrate (or next to all of them with that kind of penetration power) with a premium account. Spamming premium ammunition has no drawbacks whatsoever when it comes to making creds so long as you have a premium account and you don't play like an idiot and make most of your shots count.

Edited by _Ninjax_, Jul 14 2016 - 00:29.


RNG_is_Magic #43 Posted Jul 13 2016 - 05:10

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View PostDeadBambi, on Jul 12 2016 - 00:38, said:

this is me paying for premium ammo when not top tier

 

and hell sometimes just for the hell of it too, like to see the QQ in chat

Greatest post ever about premium rounds.  I love seeing the butthurt in chat after firing a premium round into someone.



Pipinghot #44 Posted Jul 13 2016 - 14:22

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View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 12 2016 - 22:36, said:

Make you broke? I can spam gold in my T110E4 and make a profit because I will make all of my shots penetrate (ore next to all of them with that kind of penetration power) with a premium account. Spamming premium ammunition has no drawbacks whatsoever when it comes to making creds so long asyou have a premium account and you don't play like an idiot and make most of your shots count.

So what you're saying is that a good player, using knowledge and skill, can still make a profit while using premium rounds. Well, yeah obviously, that's pretty much the point.

 

"Spamming" gold rounds will make people broke, especially low-to-average skill players. Good players have more flexibility because they're better at using their ammo efficiently.

 

It's telling that you cherry picked a tank with one of your highest win rates, rather than say your E-100 which, with a 42.5% Win Rate does not make a profit if you fire all premium rounds. If you played an equal number of battles in your E4 and your T100 you would not break even, you would lose credits.

 

In the end, the answer is still the same - people who use premium rounds judiciously and use skill and knowledge to fire at good locations will be ok, people who "spam" premium rounds will soon drain themselves of credits.



Pipinghot #45 Posted Jul 13 2016 - 14:29

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View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 12 2016 - 19:07, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Jul 12 2016 - 08:43, said:

Other than the fact that shooting all premium ammo make you completely broke in a matter of weeks, it has no drawbacks. That's like saying, "Other than the fact that running into a brick wall might wreck your car there are no other drawbacks."

 

Well duh, there aren't any other drawbacks but there don't need to be, that one drawback is huge and prevents people from doing it.

 

On the contrary, you fail to understand that making premium rounds available for credits was a good solution to a problem. Having premium rounds that can only be purchased for gold is a pay-to-win feature. Having premium rounds that can be purchased by anyone in the game who has good judgement about how many premium rounds to carry on each tank is a great fix to that problem. And the very few people who "spam" gold rounds are a self-solving problem, they quickly lose the ability to buy ammo or to buy higher tier tanks.

And yet you still failed to see how not having any drawbacks to the premium ammo is.  It's like you completely ignored what I typed.

Premium ammo being sold for silver is NOT the problem.  The PROBLEM is the fact that the entire games armor system is balanced around STANDARD ammunition while having a premium ammo that has practically no drawbacks.

Repeating your false assertion doesn't make it more true. Premium ammo has one drawback built in, because that is the only drawback it needs.

 

Premium ammo is not a guaranteed pen, if it was then bad players using premium ammo would be good players, and they're not. Your idea that armor is automatically vulnerable to premium ammo because the game is balanced around standard ammo completely ignores playing intelligently and skillfully. Yes, premium ammo penetrates sightly more often, but it is not game breaking for people who play intelligently. If you want to drive across the field on Malinovka, well then yes, premium ammo is going to tear you apart. If you sit still in the streets of Himmelsdorf while you reload, then yes premium ammo is going to tear you apart. If you sit behind a destructable fence "hiding" from the enemy, then yes premium ammo is going to tear you apart. If you play the game with the attitude, "I'm a big, huge, metal monster and I should be invulnerable" then you're going to get torn apart no matter what ammo people use. As Mr. Miyagi said, "Best way not get hit, no be there."  Use cover, use concealment, use angles, use hull down, get better at timing, and then the ammo type doesn't matter. Premium ammo is not the problem, it just punishes people who make bad choices more severely than standard ammo.



SpitYoYoMafia #46 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 00:31

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 13 2016 - 05:22, said:

So what you're saying is that a good player, using knowledge and skill, can still make a profit while using premium rounds. Well, yeah obviously, that's pretty much the point.

 

"Spamming" gold rounds will make people broke, especially low-to-average skill players. Good players have more flexibility because they're better at using their ammo efficiently.

 

It's telling that you cherry picked a tank with one of your highest win rates, rather than say your E-100 which, with a 42.5% Win Rate does not make a profit if you fire all premium rounds. If you played an equal number of battles in your E4 and your T100 you would not break even, you would lose credits.

 

In the end, the answer is still the same - people who use premium rounds judiciously and use skill and knowledge to fire at good locations will be ok, people who "spam" premium rounds will soon drain themselves of credits.

 

You do realize that my E-100 got trash teams right, and I also rarely fire premium rounds in my E-100 as well. Your point literally means nothing.

 

On high alpha guns spamming premium with a premium account will net creds. The only tanks that lose creds are tanks with low alpha and premium spamming. It will not drain anyone who is of dark green stats or higher who can at least make their shots hit because chances are it's going to penetrate because T10 premium rounds are ridiculous and over penetrate.

 

Also stop being ignorant as well. WGing has already stated that the game is not balanced around premium rounds, and it is obvious that they are breaking the armor in the game. It's the exact same reason why good players have abandoned both slow, and heavily armored tanks because as long as premium rounds exist in their current state these tanks are next to worthless but perform well in the hands of the unskilled because it doesn't matter anyway.


Edited by _Ninjax_, Jul 14 2016 - 00:33.


VinnyI82 #47 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 03:36

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 13 2016 - 08:29, said:

Repeating your false assertion doesn't make it more true. Premium ammo has one drawback built in, because that is the only drawback it needs.

 

Premium ammo is not a guaranteed pen, if it was then bad players using premium ammo would be good players, and they're not. Your idea that armor is automatically vulnerable to premium ammo because the game is balanced around standard ammo completely ignores playing intelligently and skillfully. Yes, premium ammo penetrates sightly more often, but it is not game breaking for people who play intelligently. If you want to drive across the field on Malinovka, well then yes, premium ammo is going to tear you apart. If you sit still in the streets of Himmelsdorf while you reload, then yes premium ammo is going to tear you apart. If you sit behind a destructable fence "hiding" from the enemy, then yes premium ammo is going to tear you apart. If you play the game with the attitude, "I'm a big, huge, metal monster and I should be invulnerable" then you're going to get torn apart no matter what ammo people use. As Mr. Miyagi said, "Best way not get hit, no be there."  Use cover, use concealment, use angles, use hull down, get better at timing, and then the ammo type doesn't matter. Premium ammo is not the problem, it just punishes people who make bad choices more severely than standard ammo.

 

As stated before and by ninja and EVEN by WarGaming.  Premium rounds aren't balanced.  Period.  Saying premium rounds drawback of costing a little bit extra is NOT a drawback.  It is a minor negative effect, sure, but its by no means a viable drawback.

 

You want that extra silver cost on the premium ammo to be a viable drawback?  Make them cost 20k a shot, just like premium consumables.


Edited by VinnyI82, Jul 14 2016 - 03:39.


Jryder #48 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 06:35

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Gotta hand it to the Gold Shamers. Even though the strategy has succeeded in convincing exactly NOBODY to stop using a perfectly legitimate and legal tool, they keep pluggin' away at it.

 

They don't take "no" for an answer, I'll give that to them...

 

 



SpectreHD #49 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 07:01

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The "cost" of premium ammo is pretty much irrelevant in a match because it is only seen in the garage.

 

Does the person getting penetrated while driving his slow, armoured vehicle get to see this drawback? No. All he sees is his tank being slow, and have only OK firepower because it is balanced around armour, gets screwed because his opponent nullified his advantage with a push of a button.

 

So where is the button for slow vehicles to press to immediately speed up or slow down its enemies?

 

The financial cost of using premium ammo is irrelevant. What matters is its effects on balance and how it destroys it. 

 

View PostNunya_000, on Jul 12 2016 - 22:16, said:

We upgrade our guns for better penetration and damage

We upgrade our turrets for better armor

We upgrade our radios to shoot at targets further away

We upgrade our engines to go faster

We install rammers to load faster

We install vents to improve our crew's skills

We install Vert. stabilizers to improve our accuracy on the move.

We install optics and binos to see further than our opponent.

We shroud our tank in camo paint and nets to keep from being see.

We carry tool boxes to repair our tanks faster

We install gun-laying drives to aim faster

We even upgrade our chassis to carry all of this

 

But using better ammo is a no-no. :facepalm:

 

Too bad vehicles are balanced around upgraded form with upgrades AND standard ammo. Not premium ammo. There is a reason supertesters are told not to use premium ammo. So this "argument" if we can call it that is flawed.

 



Nunya_000 #50 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 14:12

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View PostSpectreHD, on Jul 13 2016 - 22:01, said:

Too bad vehicles are balanced around upgraded form with upgrades AND standard ammo. Not premium ammo. There is a reason supertesters are told not to use premium ammo. So this "argument" if we can call it that is flawed.

 

 

Where did you hear this?  This is a game where WG makes some very miner tweaks to vehicles in order to keep them balanced.  i find it very hard to believe that the impacts of premium rounds are not considered and balanced as well.



VinnyI82 #51 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 15:49

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View PostNunya_000, on Jul 14 2016 - 08:12, said:

 

Where did you hear this?  This is a game where WG makes some very miner tweaks to vehicles in order to keep them balanced.  i find it very hard to believe that the impacts of premium rounds are not considered and balanced as well.

 

It's common knowledge that the entire games armor system was balanced around standard ammunition.

GeorgePreddy #52 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 15:55

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View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 12 2016 - 06:41, said:

 

All you "pro-prem ammo users" seriously fail to see how broken this makes the game.

 

My game is not broken... sorry 'bout yours.

GeorgePreddy #53 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 16:00

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View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 14 2016 - 11:49, said:

 

It's common knowledge that the entire games armor system was balanced around standard ammunition.

 

And that is correct and that is because players can save credits by using std ammo for most targets and use prem ammo when it's worth the extra credits in order to pen harder targets... nothing wrong with that. It allows tanks 2 tiers down to be more relevant.

 

If some players have beaucoup credits and choose to waste tons of them by firing prem ammo at soft targets they could easily pen with std ammo... who is losing out on that deal?  Not you !



Nunya_000 #54 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 16:07

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View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 14 2016 - 06:49, said:

 

It's common knowledge that the entire games armor system was balanced around standard ammunition.

 

Common knowledge? or wives tale?  Based on the way WG keeps everything close to the vest in regards to well.....everything,.....it sounds more like something that players just assume is correct.

 

As i said, I find it hard to believe that WG spend so much time and energy to make minor tweaks to just about every aspect of the game and do not consider the "balance" of premium rounds.

 

 



strYker555 #55 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 19:25

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The only time I will hit a lower tier tank with premium rounds is when that round is preloaded for another  tank but the low tier machine becomes a target. Im not going to reload a regular round in a fight to suit anybody. I have been caught so many times with HE loaded because of these damn Waffentragers and other open topped German TDs. Funny story, was in my Jackson on El Haluf when I saw a Nashorn with it's side exposed, so I loaded HE for him then a T67 came into my sights so I shot him instead and destroyed him for the full 340HP. 90mm HE can be useful at times. But if I have a prem round loaded and my initial target is destroyed or moved out of sight, the next available target will get it.

Pipinghot #56 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 19:54

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View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

You do realize that my E-100 got trash teams right

#1 - Obviously not. There's no such thing as psychic powers, so it's not humanly possible for anyone to "realize" what teams you got, you're asking a pretty stupid question from the point of view of what people can "realize".

 

#2 - That's almost guaranteed to be false. We all get the same MM, we all get the same good/bad luck. The idea that you got worse teams than most with 80 battles played is a very small chance. Even if you did have worse than average luck, it wasn't bad enough to have a 42.5% WR in your E-100, you obviously play the E-100 poorly and drag down the WR of your teams in that tank. I'm not saying that's unique to you, I have tanks like that too. I'm not saying your a bad person, or anything, just that you need to accept responsibility for your game play.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

and I also rarely fire premium rounds in my E-100 as well.

Which helps explain your WR. The E100 needs a lot of premium rounds for most people to be effective in it. There are exception, but they're better players than you or me.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

Your point literally means nothing.

You're having a math problem. If you played equal number of games in your T4 and your E100 and you used a lot of premium rounds in both, you would end up losing money, you could not make a credit playing both of them the same way. You can only understand points if you can understand the logic behind them, which seems to be giving you difficulties, Mr. Snarky. The only reason that you're able to make money in your T4 is that you're not "spamming" gold rounds, you're using them judiciously, like a good player should.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

On high alpha guns spamming premium with a premium account will net creds. The only tanks that lose creds are tanks with low alpha and premium spamming. It will not drain anyone who is of dark green stats or higher who can at least make their shots hit because chances are it's going to penetrate because T10 premium rounds are ridiculous and over penetrate.

That all depends on what you mean by "spamming". Generally speaking, when someone is "spamming" premium rounds I assume they're shooting at least 75% premium rounds. People who carry 5 or 10 prem rounds on every tank, and use them only when they think it's important, are not "spamming" them.

 

With that being said, for the significant majority of players, (but not necessarily for people with 53% or higher win rates), spamming premium rounds will make them go broke very quickly. When people are good players, and they use premium rounds only when it matters, yes they can make a profit while using premium ammo. But people with lower win rates who "spam" premium rounds are going to find that they're quickly draining away their own credits, it is not a sustainable way for the great majority of people to play the game. And certainly for people with 50% or below, if they make a habit of "spamming" premium rounds, they are going to drain their credit supply.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

Also stop being ignorant as well.

You should take your own advice.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

WGing has already stated that the game is not balanced around premium rounds, and it is obvious that they are breaking the armor in the game.

No, they've said that the game is not balanced around premium rounds, but that they are not breaking the game. WG has repeatedly asserted that players greatly over estimate the use of premium rounds and that they are not causing problems with the game.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Jul 13 2016 - 18:31, said:

It's the exact same reason why good players have abandoned both slow, and heavily armored tanks because as long as premium rounds exist in their current state these tanks are next to worthless but perform well in the hands of the unskilled because it doesn't matter anyway.

Good players abandoned slow, heavily armored tanks long before premium rounds were available for credits, you are inventing a false cause-and-affect relationship. Good players, for the most part, don't play slow, heavily armored tanks because they can't flex and they can't control the battlefield in the way that more mobile tanks can. Most skilled players have been avoiding slow, heavily armored tanks since beta, which has nothing to do with premium ammo.



Husarski #57 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 19:56

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View Postgalspanic, on Jul 12 2016 - 01:40, said:

If "gold" is better and let's you compete better, what exactly is the problem?  Seems silly not to load each and every tank with the best ammo you can and everyone can put some premium ammo into every tank.

 

 

or use a repair kit, or premium fuel, or rations, or equipment.

Jesus. I put whatever is the BEST thing for my tank into use. BEST = best chance to win = credits and exps.



Pipinghot #58 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 19:59

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View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 13 2016 - 21:36, said:

As stated before and by ninja and EVEN by WarGaming.  Premium rounds aren't balanced.  Period.

As previously noted, Wargaming has repeatedly, and explicitly, stated that premium rounds are not unbalancing the game. They have published stats on how much they say premium rounds are being used and they have specifically said that premium rounds are not a problem.

 

View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 13 2016 - 21:36, said:

Saying premium rounds drawback of costing a little bit extra is NOT a drawback.  It is a minor negative effect, sure, but its by no means a viable drawback.

You can try to reframe it as a "minor" negative effect, but your attempt doesn't hold up under scrutiny. People who "spam" premium ammo will not be able to afford advancement in the game.

 

View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 13 2016 - 21:36, said:

You want that extra silver cost on the premium ammo to be a viable drawback?  Make them cost 20k a shot, just like premium consumables.

Now that's solid logic, because of course people use the same number of premium rounds and consumables, so of course they should have the same cost. That's some real genius.


Edited by Pipinghot, Jul 14 2016 - 21:11.


Pipinghot #59 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 20:01

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View PostVinnyI82, on Jul 14 2016 - 09:49, said:

View PostNunya_000, on Jul 14 2016 - 08:12, said:

Where did you hear this?  This is a game where WG makes some very miner tweaks to vehicles in order to keep them balanced.  i find it very hard to believe that the impacts of premium rounds are not considered and balanced as well.

It's common knowledge that the entire games armor system was balanced around standard ammunition.

Nope. "Common knowlege" is nothing more than rumors, hearsay and confirmation bias. I defy you to find a single sourced from WG that has stated the game is balance exclusively around standard ammo.



Burnerboy1 #60 Posted Jul 14 2016 - 20:03

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View Postcoolstarwarsfan, on Jul 12 2016 - 06:33, said:

After playing Armored Warfare, I was happy going back to World of Frustration because the NA server is extremely toxic, terrible grind, the game is still very much in a beta stage, and you can't piss of players spamming gold. The server population is very low and you can find that out by watching today's video from Jingles. It's not a very fun game compared to this one and after playing Armored Warfare you can really start to appreciate what Wargaming has done despite the game's many flaws.

 

 

Amen...




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