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Tier 6 CW hate - please explain

CW tier6 clans

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_Mik_ #1 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 18:57

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Hello everyone,

 

I know that a lot of people feel that tier 6 clan wars is irrelevant or terrible. However, I have never heard a logical argument lain out explaining why people hold those opinions.

 

Could some of you that hold this opinion please explain it here? I would like actual arguments, explaining the logic rather than patronizing commentary. I would also like commentary on specifically why tier 6 is held in such negative regard rather than on the clan wars system. 

 

Thanks



Silvers_ #2 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:01

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There have been numerous posts about why it's horrible.

 

It doesn't translate at ALL to t10 CW's. It needs to be at least 10v10 to have any relevance. Otherwise it's just fastbois, RNG and yolo rush. Doesn't teach you anything other than focus fire which you can do in SH's.

 

At 10v10 it would allow for some strats at least and the ability to use scouts and heavies like you would at 8.  As it is, T6 it's either fastboi comps or derp heavies. And when your T6 derp heavy can 1 shot any tank on the field it's not really balanced.

 

At T8 the heavies can't 1 shot anything and people actually bring a mix of tanks and run strats to s degree. Even at T8 i'd like to see it 15v15 to make the prep for T10 easier. 


Edited by Silvers_, Jul 19 2016 - 19:04.


HereticVoid #3 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:03

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The closest thing to a actual logical argument i heard from being in various clans was that t6 CW feels like a waste of time due to a amount of terrible clans that play it. It offers no real chllange or incentive over t8 or t10 cw

lBloodRage #4 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:05

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Because tier 6 doesn't offer many styles of play other than fast paced play, tiers 8/10 cw have multiple styles of gameplay because you have to command more players.  Silvers hit the nail on the head. 

RushingJaws #5 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:06

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Having played only a single season of T6 CW, I can see why it gets the hate.

 

Most clans participating play clan wars like it's a stronghold match and bring the wrong tanks. Scouting is relatively simple and mistakes aren't punished nearly as hard as they would be in T8 matches. That the meta revolves so much around a single tank (Cromwell) isn't really healthy or fun, either.

 

Also, clans stick around too long in t6. It really isn't fun to crush the same clan night after night that brings two - three heavies and tries the 8 line abbey strat push, to name an example.



pmdanie96 #6 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:07

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View PostSilvers_, on Jul 19 2016 - 12:01, said:

There have been numerous posts about why it's horrible.

 

It doesn't translate at ALL to t10 CW's. It needs to be at least 10v10 to have any relevance. Otherwise it's just fastbois, RNG and yolo rush. Doesn't teach you anything other than focus fire which you can do in SH's.

 

At 10v10 it would allow for some strats at least and the ability to use scouts and heavies like you would at 8.  As it is T6 it's either fastboi comps or derp heavies. And when your T6 derp heavy can 1 shot any tank on the field it's not really balanced.

 

At T8 the heavies can't 1 shot anything and people actually bring a mix of tanks and run strats to s degree. Even at T8 i'd like to see it 15v15 to make the prep for T10 easier. 

Pretty much the above. With zero correlation to tier X, there is nothing redeeming about that tier. If it wasn't for all the clans spouting off about how goof they are at controlling things on the little kids map (only using this term because it really requires little effort at tier 6) you probably would not see so much backlash. How often do you see tier VIII clans talking about how well they are doing? Very little. Those clans understand there is little to no correlation with the tier X map. They know better.



ratpak #7 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:12

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Basically the tanking snobs don't like it.  Every argument made is irrelevant.  If you play T6 CW and are having fun that is all that matters.  If you don't like T6 CW then don't play it.

 



Silversound #8 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:12

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:popcorn:

The_Wrath_of_Neeson #9 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:13

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Tier 6 cw isn't as competitive as tier 10 cw. Comparing tier 6 cw and tier 10 cw is like comparing go kart racing with nascar.

DwindledSoul #10 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:19

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View PostRushingJaws, on Jul 19 2016 - 10:06, said:

Having played only a single season of T6 CW, I can see why it gets the hate.

 

Most clans participating play clan wars like it's a stronghold match and bring the wrong tanks. Scouting is relatively simple and mistakes aren't punished nearly as hard as they would be in T8 matches. That the meta revolves so much around a single tank (Cromwell) isn't really healthy or fun, either.

 

Also, clans stick around too long in t6. It really isn't fun to crush the same clan night after night that brings two - three heavies and tries the 8 line abbey strat push, to name an example.

 

:great:

flatstiger69 #11 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:40

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Remember, most of the more experienced players started way back when it was tier 10 or nothing. Stepping back to a tier 6 after 2 or 3 years of tier 10 clam wars is like being a pro football player being told he had to go back to his high school junior varsity team

iron_crosstx #12 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:40

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big clans full of unicoms talk trash about tier 6 CW, yet they still play it. it wasen't ever meant for them though, it was meant for clans like mine which are relatively new, dont have vast numbers of great players, with multiple tire 10 tanks they can run, to have a taste of what it would be like. i say to those who complain about it, the same thing i say about those who complain about MM, to many tomatoes, arty, ect.  dont like it? dont play it.

scoh671 #13 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:45

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Also as stated before, Tier 6 lacks tank variety, you don't encounter Heavy Autoloaders and Arty is near irrelevant

Silvers_ #14 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:47

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View Postiron_crosstx, on Jul 19 2016 - 12:40, said:

big clans full of unicoms talk trash about tier 6 CW, yet they still play it. it wasen't ever meant for them though, it was meant for clans like mine which are relatively new, dont have vast numbers of great players, with multiple tire 10 tanks they can run, to have a taste of what it would be like. i say to those who complain about it, the same thing i say about those who complain about MM, to many tomatoes, arty, ect.  dont like it? dont play it.

 

You are confusing t6 CW with T6 SH's. Completely different topics. There are NO TOP CLANS playing T6 CW.

 

Top clans run T6 SH's for boxes and to make credits same for T8's. Why? Because it makes more credits and you can run premiums. Plus NOBODY plays T10 SH's outside of organized events because it doesn't make any credits.


Edited by Silvers_, Jul 19 2016 - 19:47.


CanOfTomatoes #15 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:52

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View PostSilvers_, on Jul 19 2016 - 12:01, said:

There have been numerous posts about why it's horrible.

 

It doesn't translate at ALL to t10 CW's. It needs to be at least 10v10 to have any relevance. Otherwise it's just fastbois, RNG and yolo rush. Doesn't teach you anything other than focus fire which you can do in SH's.

 

At 10v10 it would allow for some strats at least and the ability to use scouts and heavies like you would at 8.  As it is, T6 it's either fastboi comps or derp heavies. And when your T6 derp heavy can 1 shot any tank on the field it's not really balanced.

 

At T8 the heavies can't 1 shot anything and people actually bring a mix of tanks and run strats to s degree. Even at T8 i'd like to see it 15v15 to make the prep for T10 easier. 

 

So why do all the elite fanboys say play tier 6 till you learn to play? It isnt relevant to anything you see at tier 8 and up...just another [edited]myth.

_Mik_ #16 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 19:58

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View Post_Tsavo_, on Jul 19 2016 - 19:04, said:

There's a few ideas, I think, as to why that is

 

1.) The tier 6 meta isn't overly difficult, speed is king, which means successful comps are generally going to be Crommies, T37s, Type 64s, and the occasional odd ball A-43 or such

-----To elaborate on this: it's 7 v 7, which isn't a large number of players and the fast boi meta is boring.  There's a reason I don't do tier 6 stronks, it's boring as all hell.  As mentioned in a post above, you should have more participants in a fight.  I feel CW fights should be 15 v 15 at all tiers, so allow callers to learn how to handle 2 or more groups, to allow for more flex, and so on.  As it is, tier 6 CW is just tier 6 strongholds with a map and a few dollars of gold for a clan for a month.  Just like tier 6 stronks, hardly worth the effort

 

2.) This one's purely my opinion- the tier 6 map shouldn't be a place for a clan to choose to stay.  Once you're able to hold land, go to tier 8 and improve on what you needed to do to get onto, and then stay on, the tier 6 map and once you can hold land on tier 8, go to tier 10.  

 

3.) There's been a few instances of tier 6 clans boasting about their achievements against middling and new clans

 

4.) The real meat of Clan Wars with widely varying strats, compositions, and some of the best players is at tier 10; if you can succeed at tier 10, you're probably doing something right

 

1 - I think this point highlights what I usually tell my guys is the issue with a fastbois sort of mentality. It seems like the biggest problem most skilled players have in tier 6 is that they can easily overpower the majority of tier 6 teams because they usually consist of less skilled players that they can swarm and steamroll. I try to vary our compositions and positioning in order to fight the battle with sound tactics all the time. I do agree that it is annoying that there are so many tier 6 tanks that are irrelevant unless you want to try to surprise your enemy or do something very anti-meta. I also agree that more tanks in the fights would be a lot better. I really miss tank companies for this reason. The larger teams allowed the use of arty, tds, etc. In the current form, mobility is the best key to map control. 

 

2 - My issue with the higher tiers is that it takes a lot more effort to keep up the credits, etc. to operate in the higher tiers. Tier 8 and 10 are very costly, even with a premium account. Personally, I don't usually have time to put a lot of battles in during the week, especially with CW going. 

 

3 - I don't think this has much to do with tier 6, so much as people being immature.

 

4 - I don't think this is untrue, but I think that it is mostly because of the number of players. I don't think that many people would make the case that the old tank companies were devoid of strategic variety because they were tier 6 for the most part. I do think that they were plagued by having a handful of relatively OP tanks overused, but nonetheless...

 

Thanks for your comments. I think they do a pretty good job of summarizing the more serious points. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on my response. 



_Mik_ #17 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 20:01

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View PostSilvers_, on Jul 19 2016 - 19:47, said:

 Plus NOBODY plays T10 SH's outside of organized events because it doesn't make any credits.

 

I think this is the biggest problem with the higher tiers. Honestly, it is a lot of premium tank play to fund high tier tanks. What's more, strongholds at levels higher than 6 cost you money most of the time. 



Silvers_ #18 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 20:04

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View PostCanOfTomatoes, on Jul 19 2016 - 12:52, said:

 

So why do all the elite fanboys say play tier 6 till you learn to play? It isnt relevant to anything you see at tier 8 and up...just another [edited]myth.

 

It's not a myth. What part of it only teaches you FOCUS FIRE. did you not get? if it taught you anything that equated to T10 you'd see everyone running full 15v15 Deathstar strats or 15v15 all medium TVP/Batchat strats..........

 

Actually the last I have seen from a few Top Tier clans. and the auto loader focus fire can finish a team pretty quick.

 

Point is T6 CW doesn't do anything to teach you about end game CW play outside of focus fire.



Jimmy53722 #19 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 20:24

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I believe the initial intent for tier 6 clan wars was to enable small new clans and new players a taste of clan wars.  It allows them a chance learn the basics of clan wars (mostly how the map actually works) and help them with recruiting.  Once a clan becomes large enough and good enough to hold multiple provinces they should move on to tier 8 and then 10.

 

I believe tier 6 gets it bad reputation for the following reasons:

 

First, tier 6 is heavily dependant on RNG.  7v7 is too small and a single high roll, low roll, or lucky ammo rack can change the outcome of the entire battle regardless of which clan is actually better skill wise.  This often upsets good players who lose to a clan they are clearly better than just because RNG made it so.

 

Second, the selection of meta tanks is very limited.  You either see everyone running fast bois or the entire team camping in a corner with derp guns.  Any other composition of tanks is almost a guaranteed loss.  In addition the tanks at tier 6 are not balanced that well.  The cromwell seems to the tank that fits all roles and positions.  Also in higher tier clan wars unless it is an arty or an ammo rack you never see a tank getting 1 shot by an enemy tank.  The lack of suitable tanks for clan wars leads me to my third point.

 

There is no real strategy here.  Any strategy, no matter how good, can and will be ruined by RNG.  At tier 10 and even tier 8 if one of your ally tanks gets ammo racked with the first shot you can still salvage the situation, but it is nearly impossible at tier 6.  Even if RNG was taken away what you can do with 7 tanks is very limited.  When the fighting begins, the team with all its tanks together will beat the team with its tanks spread out 9/10 times.  In higher tier clan wars it is important to outnumber the enemy tanks in a brawl, but there is often several brawls going on simultaneously so you can spread your tanks out more, and form different groups.

 

As mentioned above in previous posts, the attitude of the clans at this tier is poor.  You see veteran players rolling over newbies for months.  It is understandable to have your fun and roll over the newbies for a little bit, but come on how long is rolling over newbies going to entertain you.  Also you spend a lot of time grinding influence to roll over newbies and there is no real payoff for it.  There is no real gold income on tier 6, not that tier 8 or 10 are doing too well these days. 

 

This point I think gets overlooked by long time players of tier 6 clan wars.  This point is that tier 10 is more fun than tier 8 and tier 8 is more fun than tier 6, that is if you can win.  I think a lot of the top clans at tier 6 are scared of challenging themselves.  They get comfortable at tier 6 and do not want to grow and challenge themselves.  Or they do challenge themselves lose a couple of battles and give up.  Sure switching over from tier 6 to tier 8 is a huge challenge, but the reward is worth it.  It is more enjoyable

 

My final point is clan wars was initially intended to be an endgame thing for players with tier 10 tanks.  It gives players a reason to grind out tier 10 tanks and something to do with them.  Now we see players accumulating all the tier 6 tanks and not grinding down the lines any further.  Tier 6 and even tier 8 are not end game tiers and in a sense take away from what clan wars once was and from the current tier 10 clan wars.

 

I read that you are concerned about the credit loss at higher tiers.  It is true that you may end up at a credit loss after a tier 10 or 8 cw battle, but this should not be an issue.  1 there are usually less battles at the higher tiers due to the number of people required for each team.  2 its probably because you are only using only 'gold' ammo and are losing the match, which if you only use 'gold' ammo at lower tiers and lose you will also operate at a loss.  3 if you run 2 or 3 games of fast bois in strong holds afterwards running a typer-64 or cromwell b it should be more than enough to cover your losses.  The time it takes to run 2 or 3 fast bois is probably the amount of time between your cw matches or even less time.

 

TL ; DR  Tier 6 clan wars is meant for new clans to learn how to do clan wars, which it doesn't really do.  Clans stay at tier 6 and don't progress to higher tiers.  It is not really an endgame if it is tier 6 or 8.

 


Edited by Jimmy53722, Jul 19 2016 - 20:24.


Silversound #20 Posted Jul 19 2016 - 20:34

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If tier six CW's was not an option, people would just hate on tier eight like they hate on tier six now.

And these folks would state all of the same reasons.

 

It's all about the big dogs pissing on the little dogs. ~fin~







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