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Tiger 1 homage


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Cmdr_Adama_BSG75 #1 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:17

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Being that there is only one running Tiger 1 tank in the world, and Wargaming is involved with the Tank Museum, why is there no "Tiger 131" tribute tank? There is not even a 131 inscription available, which I would readily buy. The Tiger 1 was a tank to be feared, and was a potent machine, really the first high performance, super tank. But the game does not reflect this. Its an overlooked tank at its tier, and that is not right. A re-balance, and a little more respect for this historical machine would be nice.

JRingo20 #2 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:23

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View PostCmdr_Adama_BSG75, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:17, said:

Being that there is only one running Tiger 1 tank in the world, and Wargaming is involved with the Tank Museum, why is there no "Tiger 131" tribute tank? There is not even a 131 inscription available, which I would readily buy. The Tiger 1 was a tank to be feared, and was a potent machine, really the first high performance, super tank. But the game does not reflect this. Its an overlooked tank at its tier, and that is not right. A re-balance, and a little more respect for this historical machine would be nice.

 

:great::great::great:

King_Derpy_Fart #3 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:24

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I do support the Inscription, but its fine as it is.

P_A_N_Z_E_R #4 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:33

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View PostCmdr_Adama_BSG75, on Jul 22 2016 - 01:17, said:

Being that there is only one running Tiger 1 tank in the world, and Wargaming is involved with the Tank Museum, why is there no "Tiger 131" tribute tank? There is not even a 131 inscription available, which I would readily buy. The Tiger 1 was a tank to be feared, and was a potent machine, really the first high performance, super tank. But the game does not reflect this. Its an overlooked tank at its tier, and that is not right. A re-balance, and a little more respect for this historical machine would be nice.

 

This game is kind of strange in regards to historical accuracy. Tiger and Panter were tho most feared tanks in the war. But in this game.........Tiger is a very difficult to master. And Panter that was recognized as one of the best tanks in the war (if not the best) is absulutely one of the worst in the game. In fact, it is so bad that even I am Affraid to touch it.

GeorgePreddy #5 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:36

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View PostP_A_N_Z_E_R, on Jul 21 2016 - 21:33, said:

 

 I am Affraid to touch it.

 

afraid



dmckay #6 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:39

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View PostP_A_N_Z_E_R, on Jul 21 2016 - 19:33, said:

 

This game is kind of strange in regards to historical accuracy. Tiger and Panter were tho most feared tanks in the war. But in this game.........Tiger is a very difficult to master. And Panter that was recognized as one of the best tanks in the war (if not the best) is absulutely one of the worst in the game. In fact, it is so bad that even I am Affraid to touch it.

 

I hate to be a neggie but the Panther was far far from the best tank in WWII. "The best".....not even close. It was a mess as was the Tiger. The Tiger was not even a factor in Europe. Only 3 documented engagements between American tanks and Tiger from D-Day to the end of the war. Why?  There were simply very very few of them. Russians killed most of them.  BUT don't take my word for it.  Check it out.

Edited by dmckay, Jul 22 2016 - 01:41.


Wyvern2 #7 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:43

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View PostP_A_N_Z_E_R, on Jul 22 2016 - 01:33, said:

 

This game is kind of strange in regards to historical accuracy. Tiger and Panter were tho most feared tanks in the war. But in this game.........Tiger is a very difficult to master. And Panter that was recognized as one of the best tanks in the war (if not the best) is absulutely one of the worst in the game. In fact, it is so bad that even I am Affraid to touch it.

 

Neither the Panther nor the Tiger are considered to have been particularly good by any legitimate historian. They took up resources and didn't perform well as anything except pillboxes. Theres a reason the cancellation of Tiger production didn't cause so much as a peep yet plans to cancel stug production caused an uproar amongst German military commanders. Considering the Panther was supposed to be a pzIV replacement, it failed miserably at the job, being far less reliable and poorly armed for an all around tank. Basically, the JpzIV outperforms the Panther at the one thing its good at, long range sniping, and the PzIV/StuG III is a cheaper infantry buster. The worst part is, the Panther is a 45 ton tank that's vulnerable to anti tank rifles. No other mass production tank in that weight range is equally vulnerable. The IS-2's sides could resist legitimate anti tank guns and it weighed roughly the same as a panther.

dmckay #8 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:51

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View PostWyvern2, on Jul 21 2016 - 19:43, said:

 

Neither the Panther nor the Tiger are considered to have been particularly good by any legitimate historian. They took up resources and didn't perform well as anything except pillboxes. Theres a reason the cancellation of Tiger production didn't cause so much as a peep yet plans to cancel stug production caused an uproar amongst German military commanders. Considering the Panther was supposed to be a pzIV replacement, it failed miserably at the job, being far less reliable and poorly armed for an all around tank. Basically, the JpzIV outperforms the Panther at the one thing its good at, long range sniping, and the PzIV/StuG III is a cheaper infantry buster. The worst part is, the Panther is a 45 ton tank that's vulnerable to anti tank rifles. No other mass production tank in that weight range is equally vulnerable. The IS-2's sides could resist legitimate anti tank guns and it weighed roughly the same as a panther.

When you have German generals in Normandy asking to stop sending them Panthers and pls send them PZ IV's you know there just might be a problem with the Panther. Cool looking?  Ya.  Effective? Not very for multiple reasons. 



Omega_Weapon #9 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:55

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View PostCmdr_Adama_BSG75, on Jul 21 2016 - 19:17, said:

Being that there is only one running Tiger 1 tank in the world, and Wargaming is involved with the Tank Museum, why is there no "Tiger 131" tribute tank? There is not even a 131 inscription available, which I would readily buy. The Tiger 1 was a tank to be feared, and was a potent machine, really the first high performance, super tank. But the game does not reflect this. Its an overlooked tank at its tier, and that is not right. A re-balance, and a little more respect for this historical machine would be nice.

 

​Two words for you. "Russian Bias".

killswitch95 #10 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 01:56

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because then they would have to give Germany a premium tier 6 Tiger... and they wont do that because Russia has been sticking it to Germany

ever since the end of WWII (Charged them $20,000,000,000 in war damages, but instead of taking the money, the USSR just moved anything of value east, to Russia... 

this included industrial factories, taken down brick by brick, and shipped east to bolster the Russian industrial machine)

 

in other words... WG wont do that because "We don't want a game full of copy paste tanks"

*Why they gave the premium tiger to Japan, when Japan already had premium tanks, and they never even received it, I'll never understand...*

 

 

 


Edited by killswitch95, Jul 22 2016 - 01:57.


Legiondude #11 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 02:51

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View Postkillswitch95, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:56, said:

in other words... WG wont do that because "We don't want a game full of copy paste tanks"

*Why they gave the premium tiger to Japan, when Japan already had premium tanks, and they never even received it, I'll never understand...*

Sure Japan had premiums, but at the time(Depending on what info Listy is sitting on for his book) nothing to spare except that one Tiger to serve as a candidate for premium heavy

 

And I had heard something to the tune of Tiger 131 being copyrighted by Bovington, so WG would have to pay a license to use it, as opposed to just picking out any other documented Tiger to implement



Cutthroatlemur #12 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:00

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Sure Tigers and Panthers were heavy drains on scant resources, and relatively unreliable...but THIS game doesn't even consider those factors.  In WOT every tank is operational at 100%.  They don't break down, they don't NEED to be reliable because there is no reliability metric in the game.  

 

Histirically in a 1 v 1 engagement a healthy Tiger or a Panther was absolutely equal or often superior to the contemporary allied tanks.  This game should reflect that but it does not.  It places these tanks at tier 7 where they fight tanks that either did not exist in WWII (think T29) or existed only at the very end of the war (IS).  

 

This game never pretended to be historically accurate.  And really...that's fine.  It balances the game.  After all it's just a game.   



Harmless55 #13 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:09

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Jul 21 2016 - 19:36, said:

 

afraid

 

There is much that you can consign to ellipsis or imagine has been consigned to ellipsis in your pointing out the misspelling. However, you are quoting a word and the word forms a complete thought even though it replaces the missing words, "That would be 'afraid' and not 'affraid' as you wrote." Thus, what you are missing are quotation marks—either single or double—the capitalization of the initial 'a' in "afraid" and a period since the word-as-sentence is a complete thought. 

Before you issue your next correction, I would highly recommend that you read any or all of the following books:

1. Strunk and White's "The Elements of Style."
2. The Well-Tempered Sentence: A Handbook of Punctuation for the Innocent, the Eager and the Doomed by the marvelous Karen Gordon. 
3. The Chicago Manual of Style. 

If you read and retain enough of what is in the Chicago Manual, you will not only sound educated but, by understanding basic punctuation on the level it will teach you, you will actually be educated with respect to nit-picking correctness as you evidently are not now. You will actually know what is meant by the term, "The Oxford comma."

In a slightly less correct mode, let me just say, "Have at it, hoss."

Edited by Harmless55, Jul 22 2016 - 03:21.


caramel #14 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:11

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View PostCutthroatlemur, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:00, said:

Sure Tigers and Panthers were heavy drains on scant resources, and relatively unreliable...but THIS game doesn't even consider those factors.  In WOT every tank is operational at 100%.  They don't break down, they don't NEED to be reliable because there is no reliability metric in the game.  

 

Histirically in a 1 v 1 engagement a Tiger or a Panther was absolutely equal or often superior to the contemporary allied tanks.  This game should reflect that but it does not.  It places these tanks at tier 7 where they fight tanks that either did not exist in WWII (think T29) or existed only at the very end of the war (IS).  

 

This game never pretended to be historically accurate.  And really...that's fine.  It balances the game.  After all it's just a game.   

 

Historically these two tanks almost never faced their "Counterparts" ,the tiger 1 could be reliably penetrated by both 75Mm and 76MM shermans from the front {as well as most of the Russian and british counterparts}, with the 76MM able to punch through at 800 meters, while average combat ranges were around 500 {Not much use for the Tiger and panthers 2KM Range when they're in that short range is there} consistantly and regularly broke down and were FAR less agile then the T-34 and Sherman, both of which were considerably better tanks because they did their jobs well multi-roll tanks that DID their jobs well, rather than be glorified pill-boxes. The Tiger 1 was designed as a break-through tank, but the only thing it ever broke through was its transmission.

 

Yes, the 75's were far more ineffective against the panther/tiger 2's, the 76's could still reliably penetrate them; also the whole issue with again, the Shermans and T-34's being far more mobile and able to easily out maneuver these "Supposedly superior tanks" giving them easy access to the juicy sides. The ONLY reason these tanks have decent kill counts is because they often ambushed; as far as ASSAULTS go, the tiger and panthers were a complete and total flop, whose only real good point was the frontal armor; fun fact the Sherman Jumbo had enough frontal armor to no sell direct shots from the "Legendary" german 8.8's.  {170MM effective on the HULL} but that's been nerfed heavily for balance in game.

 

The reason that the humble PZ-IV and Stug-III are the ones fighting the Sherman and its counter-parts, are those are the ones that were often actually FACING those tanks and thus, easily to balance.  If the tiger WAS shoe-horned into the roll of fighting tier 5's, at best it'd be a tier 6 And even then you'd be losing guns, and likely seeing some nerfs to its accuracy or some other stats; and if it was brought down to tier 5? hah, good luck.  Another funny thing? The Pershing, a tank which could, would, and will destroy a tiger with it's 90MM, was in development during the era where the tiger was even remotely on the Radar of the allies; if it had been a threat to the point wheraboo make it out to be, the Pershing likely would have been pushed forward a lot sooner, rather then the "Sherman being deemed acceptable for the job." with guns like the 90MM and the British firefly's gun being deemed "Not significant enough of an upgrade, nor is there enough cause to mandate said upgrade.};  Jackson was capable of kiilling tiger's with its 9mm0 though I don't recall jacksons ever engaging tiger tanks} and hellcat with 76MM HVAP's were more then capable of {I do distinctly recall Hellcats engaging and killing Panthers, could be wrong there, but coulda sworn it happened during the BOTB and resulted in a MASSIVE loss in german tanks vs the entrenched allies.}

 

The biggest thing is, the most kills on BOTH sides are the lowly towed AT guns, not tank on tank engagements; and those few tank on tanks as far as the allied are concerned, the Sherman more than held its own for most of the war



haxmachine21 #15 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:17

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View Postkillswitch95, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:56, said:

because then they would have to give Germany a premium tier 6 Tiger... and they wont do that because Russia has been sticking it to Germany

ever since the end of WWII (Charged them $20,000,000,000 in war damages, but instead of taking the money, the USSR just moved anything of value east, to Russia...

this included industrial factories, taken down brick by brick, and shipped east to bolster the Russian industrial machine)

 

in other words... WG wont do that because "We don't want a game full of copy paste tanks"

*Why they gave the premium tiger to Japan, when Japan already had premium tanks, and they never even received it, I'll never understand...*

 

 

 

 

The only reasons WG gave a premium Tiger to Japan was because the Japanese Heavy line needed a 'crew trainer' (and since everything from the O-I Exp. to the Type 5 needs double of either radio operators or loaders, it takes a long time to train a crew up....and it is awkward to train one in the HT.No.VI already), and secondly, people had wanted to see a Tiger at tier 6, so WG granted their wish....only for the people to find out that, thanks to the Japanese Heavies, the HT still sucks as much in tier 6 as it does as a standard Tiger in tier 7. Those were really the only 2 reasons.

Edited by haxmachine21, Jul 22 2016 - 03:18.


Cutthroatlemur #16 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:19

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View Postcaramel, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:11, said:

 

Historically these two tanks almost never faced their "Counterparts" ,the tiger 1 could be reliably penetrated by both 75Mm and 76MM shermans from the front {as well as most of the Russian and british counterparts}, with the 76MM able to punch through at 800 meters, while average combat ranges were around 500 {Not much use for the Tiger and panthers 2KM Range when they're in that short range is there} consistantly and regularly broke down and were FAR less agile then the T-34 and Sherman, both of which were considerably better tanks because they did their jobs well multi-roll tanks that DID their jobs well, rather than be glorified pill-boxes. The Tiger 1 was designed as a break-through tank, but the only thing it ever broke through was its transmission.

 

Yes, the 75's were far more ineffective against the panther/tiger 2's, the 76's could still reliably penetrate them; also the whole issue with again, the Shermans and T-34's being far more mobile and able to easily out maneuver these "Supposedly superior tanks" giving them easy access to the juicy sides. The ONLY reason these tanks have decent kill counts is because they often ambushed; as far as ASSAULTS go, the tiger and panthers were a complete and total flop, whose only real good point was the frontal armor; fun fact the Sherman Jumbo had enough frontal armor to no sell direct shots from the "Legendary" german 8.8's.  {170MM effective on the HULL} but that's been nerfed heavily for balance in game.

Blah blah blah.  Historical ranges, assault attacks, transmission problems.  None of that is relevant in WOT.  

 

Imagine that you had to fight WOT style, where crew experience, accuracy, reload speed, and communication are important and reliability, number of tanks on each side, and starting position are equal.  Would you rather be in a Churchill, M4, or T34?  Or a Tiger or Panther?  

 

If you value your future you choose the latter.



caramel #17 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:22

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View PostCutthroatlemur, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:19, said:

Blah blah blah.  Historical ranges, assault attacks, transmission problems.  None of that is relevant in WOT.  

 

Imagine that you had to fight WOT style, where crew experience, accuracy, reload speed, and communication are important and reliability, number of tanks on each side, and starting position are equal.  Would you rather be in a Churchill, M4, or T34?  Or a Tiger or Panther?  

 

If you value your future you choose the latter.

 

I'd take the M4 or T-34 over the Tiger or Panther because a good M4 or T-34 driver can circle [edited]the later to death nine times out of ten and fire faster then the tiger with their normal guns {And in the t-34's case, faster than both with the 56'" while the 105MM sherman would OBLITERATE either with a direct heat shot as it would cripple the tiger or panther on a direct hit, if not outright TCK it.

 

edit: also, just to point out. US crews were better trained, had better radios, and often were more accurate due to their advanced firing stabilizers, allowing them to much more rapidly move onto a target, engage, and leave the area. German crews were better at ambushing because their crews were often newbies, conscripted and stuck in tanks while US tanks were trained by veterans who we wisely brought back from the front instead of leaving to die like the germans loved to do, just ask how that went for the Luftwaffe.


Edited by caramel, Jul 22 2016 - 03:31.


Cutthroatlemur #18 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:50

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View Postcaramel, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:22, said:

 

I'd take the M4 or T-34 over the Tiger or Panther because a good M4 or T-34 driver can circle [edited]the later to death nine times out of ten and fire faster then the tiger with their normal guns {And in the t-34's case, faster than both with the 56'" while the 105MM sherman would OBLITERATE either with a direct heat shot as it would cripple the tiger or panther on a direct hit, if not outright TCK it.

 

edit: also, just to point out. US crews were better trained, had better radios, and often were more accurate due to their advanced firing stabilizers, allowing them to much more rapidly move onto a target, engage, and leave the area. German crews were better at ambushing because their crews were often newbies, conscripted and stuck in tanks while US tanks were trained by veterans who we wisely brought back from the front instead of leaving to die like the germans loved to do, just ask how that went for the Luftwaffe.

 

German crews had years of actual combat experience.  Yes late in the war most of the vets were dead, but earlier on it was a different story, particularly in the air.  Luftwaffe aces had no equal for a long time.  Plus in a real shooting war no T-34 or M4 will be able to shoot more than once as a direct hit from an 88 would destroy thier tanks with one shot.  Earlier on Germans had better in-tank comms as well.  

caramel #19 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 03:54

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View PostCutthroatlemur, on Jul 21 2016 - 18:50, said:

 

German crews had years of actual combat experience.  Yes late in the war most of the vets were dead, but earlier on it was a different story, particularly in the air.  Luftwaffe aces had no equal for a long time.  Plus in a real shooting war no T-34 or M4 will be able to shoot more than once as a direct hit from an 88 would destroy thier tanks with one shot.  Earlier on Germans had better in-tank comms as well.  

 

T-34 and M4 sherman could both reliably penetrate the front of both panthers and Tiger 1's from 700+ Meters, which IS hte average combat range of tank on tank engagements, your 1KM+ range is a rare occurrence at best.  So they can just as easily one shot you, and since they're FAR more mobile you're unlikely to get a bead on them before they shoot you; They might have been better than russians, but US radios were always pretty damn good.

 

In REAL War, the first one to shoot usually won, not who just had the bigger stick. But hey, if you wanna waggle your armor at it like its invulnerable, I'll just pull up that Sherman jumbo again, which could, would, and did regularly no-sell, or in simple terms for you, BLOCKED 8.8 rounds to the face from 600 meters; the same range that would easily punch a 76mm through your frontal armor.


Edited by caramel, Jul 22 2016 - 03:55.


madogthefirst #20 Posted Jul 22 2016 - 05:43

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View Postkillswitch95, on Jul 21 2016 - 16:56, said:

because then they would have to give Germany a premium tier 6 Tiger... and they wont do that because Russia has been sticking it to Germany

ever since the end of WWII (Charged them $20,000,000,000 in war damages, but instead of taking the money, the USSR just moved anything of value east, to Russia... 

this included industrial factories, taken down brick by brick, and shipped east to bolster the Russian industrial machine)

 

in other words... WG wont do that because "We don't want a game full of copy paste tanks"

*Why they gave the premium tiger to Japan, when Japan already had premium tanks, and they never even received it, I'll never understand...*

One reason they added it to Japan is because they were going to add a bunch of grade school drawings of HTs to them and needed a crew trainer.






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