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Vird_Killer #181 Posted Aug 29 2017 - 19:43

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UO,

My gut feeling is that the points are solid however I took a look at a few instances that I'd be curious as to what caused the points to turn out the way they did.


 

#1

Battle 1 between BC and Clarity.

How did SoLo score 20 more points that Rox_What?

There is only a 300 damage difference and in most other categories I would say Rox_What was more valuable or at worst of equal value.  Does this have to do with the tank's "assumed" ability?


 

#2

Battle 2 between BC and Clarity

_ZacKa_ scored 112.3 and the best person on the winning team scored 74.7

About the only thing I can see that Zacka did better was doing 1000 damage more but that shouldn't be worth 40 more fantasy points than someone on the winning team.  I'd be curious how this happened and if tweaks need to be made to catch this.


 

#3

Battle 2 between BC and Clarity

This is probably minor because it is only 5 points but I'm curious how _roshan outscored thehobostrangle.

hobo did more damage albeit from long range, had more assist, more defense points in a game won by time, and was the only one left alive.


 

I think #2 is probably the most confusing to me as I don't think a losing player should beat a winning player most of the time and definitely not by 40 points unless it is just some obscene game.  It was a good game by Zacka but I don't think it was 50% better than _roshan's


 

Hope this helps.


 



Unknown0ne #182 Posted Aug 29 2017 - 21:38

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View PostVird_Killer, on Aug 29 2017 - 13:43, said:

UO,

My gut feeling is that the points are solid however I took a look at a few instances that I'd be curious as to what caused the points to turn out the way they did.


 

#1

Battle 1 between BC and Clarity.

How did SoLo score 20 more points that Rox_What?

There is only a 300 damage difference and in most other categories I would say Rox_What was more valuable or at worst of equal value.  Does this have to do with the tank's "assumed" ability?


 

#2

Battle 2 between BC and Clarity

_ZacKa_ scored 112.3 and the best person on the winning team scored 74.7

About the only thing I can see that Zacka did better was doing 1000 damage more but that shouldn't be worth 40 more fantasy points than someone on the winning team.  I'd be curious how this happened and if tweaks need to be made to catch this.


 

#3

Battle 2 between BC and Clarity

This is probably minor because it is only 5 points but I'm curious how _roshan outscored thehobostrangle.

hobo did more damage albeit from long range, had more assist, more defense points in a game won by time, and was the only one left alive.


 

I think #2 is probably the most confusing to me as I don't think a losing player should beat a winning player most of the time and definitely not by 40 points unless it is just some obscene game.  It was a good game by Zacka but I don't think it was 50% better than _roshan's


 

Hope this helps.


 

 

Thank you for the feedback.

 

#1 Is due to several smaller factors compounding:

 

Both players had 100% penetration ratios, but Solo had fired two more shots (difference 6 points in favor of Solo).

Damage wise, both players had around the same damage, but Rox's Maus had 3,200 HP versus Solo's 1,800 HP. Which means, the ratio of damage dealt to the tank's starting HP for Rox was 0.57 versus Solo's 1.17. This gave Solo 5.55 more points here (it was actually around 15 more, but Solo got penalized ~10 points for entirely dealing damage at long range).

Likewise for damage blocked by armor, where Rox had more on the surface, but a lower ratio overall (difference of 1.99 points). 

Likewise also for spotting assist, though to a lesser degree (difference 2.52 more points) .

Solo also had a kill (difference of 4.08 points).

 

 

#2 This is primarily because ZacKa's team had so much more HP to start with (16,800 vs. 10,800, in part due to BC's Mauses, in part to CL having 1 less player), which effectively made the damage CL did worth less, or the damage BC did worth more, depending on how you want to look at it. This is because the damage dealt points (in part) scale with the maximum possible damage (as in, the total HP pool of the enemy team), since it seems logical to say the more damage there is to potentially be done, the easier it is to deal a fixed amount of damage.

 

This meant ZacKa's 3,609 damage was 33.42% of the opposing team's total health, in comparison thehobostrangle's 2,987 damage was only 18.79%. Comparing the two player's damage points, ZacKa made 8.47 more points strictly from the higher ratio of damage dealt to starting HP, and 26.39 from the 14.63% more damage dealt relative to the total health of the opposing team. Overall, Zacka had 68.12 points from damage versus thehobostrangle's 33.27.

 

If that outcome is "ideal", I honestly don't know. 

 

I do think it is worth noting a few other things though. BC had around 3k health left at the end of the battle (CL won by time), versus CL who won with a single 300 health tank. BC also had two tanks alive, versus one on CL. Both of these mean CL left a decent amount of potential fantasy points on the field. Despite this, in net CL's players for the battle earned just 3 less fantasy points than BC. In part, CL did so because 5 of their 6 players scored above average (the average is around 41), versus BC who had 4 players below average, including a player with zero fantasy points.

 

Also of note is that it isn't just that ZacKa had 622 more damage than thehobostrangle, or that they had 14.63% more damage dealt versus the opposing team's total HP, the absolute numbers matter as well. ZacKa is getting so many points because dealing 33% of the total possible damage to the enemy team is--I would say--not an easy task. Dealing the 3.6k damage, for a damage ratio of 2, is a good showing in of itself as well, but is far from the main source of the point gap. Again though, all things considered, I honestly don't know if the point multiplier is ultimately too high or not.

 

 

#3 The main difference is due to the long range damage, which applies around a 25% penalty to net damage points (roughly, it isn't that simple, but that's a good rough estimate). Specifically, one of the metrics used is damage dealt to the player's tank's starting HP. For this metric, damage dealt has half of the sniper damage subtracted from it, since if one is sniping it's less likely they are expending their HP to deal damage. In this case, the net result was a -12.6 penalty to thehobostrangle's damage points, with thehobostrangle ultimately making 33.27 fantasy points from damage, versus _roshan who made 39.23.

 

Thehobostrangle also made less points due to having 1 less kill, but they made it back due to defense points. Thehobostrangle also made slightly more points from spotting and spotting assist damage.



Vird_Killer #183 Posted Aug 30 2017 - 03:09

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Thanks for the reply.  Overall the explanation makes sense.  I'm not sure I agree with the ratio of damage vs your tank's HP.  HP doesn't equate that well to damage output potential in my opinion especially in league.  However, the way you explained things I can see how Zacka and Solo did separate themselves.  I think it was a good point that in the second game that the two teams had total fantasy points about equal but one team just had them spread out.  

 

So overall I think it will be an improvement especially the reduced value for cap/def.



screng #184 Posted Aug 30 2017 - 07:41

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wow great explanation ty

Unknown0ne #185 Posted Aug 30 2017 - 20:44

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Rosters for Thursday are now unlocked, and scoring for Tuesday is up. Sorry for the delay.

 

As a note, I tweaked the formula between Monday and Tuesday to fix some edge cases with Defense Points. Here's a comparison between the old and new calculations from Monday's matches:

 

BC vs CL  
Defense Fantasy Points
 
Battle 2 Defense Old New
_roshan 54 4.53 5.15
thehobostrangle 98 9.62 10.92
       
Battle 5      
guicc 11 8.41 1.38
       
Battle 6      
madxbrad13 31 11.04 3.88
       
BD vs PA  
Defense Fantasy Points
 
Battle 4 Defense Old New
Ocreatus 3 5.99 0.38

 

Basically, previously really low Defense Point numbers were, in my view, earning way too many points. This was prevented, while also giving more fantasy points towards the higher end, as you can see in comparison for Battle 2.

 

View PostVird_Killer, on Aug 29 2017 - 21:09, said:

Thanks for the reply.  Overall the explanation makes sense.  I'm not sure I agree with the ratio of damage vs your tank's HP.  HP doesn't equate that well to damage output potential in my opinion especially in league.  However, the way you explained things I can see how Zacka and Solo did separate themselves.  I think it was a good point that in the second game that the two teams had total fantasy points about equal but one team just had them spread out.  

 

So overall I think it will be an improvement especially the reduced value for cap/def.

 

I agree. Damage Dealt to the tank's starting HP is not an ideal metric. This is part of the reason why there are two separate damage related metrics, the Damage Dealt to tank HP ratio based one, and the Damage % of Max possible metric. The former helps tanks with less HP, who are at some degree of disadvantage due to starting with less HP, while the latter simply rewards dealing more damage (relative to the enemy team's total HP pool) regardless of what tank one is driving. Ultimately, the former accounts for about 25% of the total fantasy points earned, while the latter accounts for 29%. So, there's a slight bias towards just dealing more damage, which I think is good.

 

In general, I think this is a reflection of the wider problems that come with attempting to apply skill based metrics in WGL: it is the nature of competitive WoT that you have players (in any particular battle) who are going to be put in positions to deal damage [or otherwise earn points "easily" ], while there will also be players who are there to take the brunt of the enemy fire, or to spot the offsides flank, or otherwise be doing something important to the strategy that is not generating individual metrics. Sometimes, this is the design of the strategy, sometimes it's simply a matter of who the enemy team chooses to focus out first or other situational aspects.

 

As a result of this, a lack of detailed metrics available from replays, and the general nature of trying to combine a wide number of separate important aspects in a mechanically complex game into a single score (that is ideally accurate even with very small sample sizes), I think it is simply a fact of the situation that the score will be based on a set of less than ideal metrics.

 

None of which is to imply I think I have the best combination of metrics, or even a good combination. I have a set of metrics that, generally, seems to work alright; there's plenty I don't like, but it is my view that it is an improvement of the previous formula. But, I could be completely wrong, I honestly don't know.



Vird_Killer #186 Posted Aug 31 2017 - 19:13

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Obviously there isn't going to be a perfect solution but I like your revisions and it was basically what I had come up with as well.  By taking into team total HP, etc. and using ratios you balance out games on different maps.  For example in the old system a battle on Ghost Town was likely to result in more points than a battle on Cliff which shouldn't be the case.


I think the main goals have been achieved by the new system.  The main frustrations were


 

1.  Insane points from cap/def which really came down to luck than skill.  ie the person who got the shot to reset 90 points isn't necessarily more important than the 4 guys who took all the hits so the person could reset.

2.  Maps/tank lineups shouldn't matter as much.

3.  A player no showing even if you did read twitter, etc. shouldn't screw you anymore.


 

In the end the best players will have the most total fantasy points but on a night by night basis things should be more equalized.



screng #187 Posted Aug 31 2017 - 20:53

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View PostVird_Killer, on Aug 31 2017 - 12:13, said:

3.  A player no showing even if you did read twitter, etc. shouldn't screw you anymore.

 

 

Or their power goes out =(



Unknown0ne #188 Posted Sep 02 2017 - 23:07

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Few days later than I had planed, but here's the overview of the new fantasy point formula: https://fantasytanks...mula#1504387364 I'm hoping this will help cut through the inherent complexity of the formula.

 

For those interested, compared to the original new formula I posted here a few weeks ago, the main difference is the way Penetration Ratio points are calculated. I changed this because I noticed that shots penetrated was more important than the penetration ratio (as in, simply having a lot of penetrations, even with an atrocious penetration ratio, would yield a lot of points). The new approach is really simple, it subtracts the shots that hit but did not penetrate from the shots that penetrated, then the result is multiplied by 3 (if the penetration ratio is under 50%, and thus this value is negative, the points from penetration ratio are instead set to zero). This heavily punishes poor penetration ratios, while also rewarding having a good penetration ratio over a large number of shots.

 

Other changes include removing all tier based difficulty scaling, combining the calculation for the three separate assist damages into one calculation (which basically means assist damage awards slightly more points), and adjustments to the defense point formula.

 

 

Also, made some minor changes to the site: https://fantasytanks...9-02#1504387075

 

And finally, the final Qualifier match day has finally be scored. Thank you to everyone who made a roster for any of the qualifier match days, it really helped with testing the new features.



Jaspo #189 Posted Sep 05 2017 - 23:28

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I discovered an inconvenience with the fantasy site while setting up this week's rosters; the team schedules are by default listed from latest to earliest rather than earliest to latest, which can easily cause confusion.

Unknown0ne #190 Posted Sep 05 2017 - 23:58

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View PostJaspo, on Sep 05 2017 - 17:28, said:

I discovered an inconvenience with the fantasy site while setting up this week's rosters; the team schedules are by default listed from latest to earliest rather than earliest to latest, which can easily cause confusion.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. Sorry for any confusion caused.

 

After tonight's matches, I'll change the default sorting order so that the team's upcoming matches are listed first, earliest to latest, followed by their past matches, ordered latest to earliest. This will ensure the first match listed is always a team's next match (if they have any), while keeping the latest results towards the top. This ordering also matches the sorting order on the Schedule page.



Halo__MeU #191 Posted Sep 22 2017 - 17:54

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Hi UnknownOne,

 

Just want to say what a great website you've put together here.  As a viewer it is easy to use, and as a player I've been amazed at how in-depth the statistics tracking is.

 

I have a little suggestion though, and it's fairly picky to be honest.  If you go to a team's page, then currently someone needs to click on the time of the match in order to go into the match page, which is an amazing page for people to see in depth statistics of the match.  I feel like it would be more intuitive if the final score of the match was a hyperlink that also brought you to the match page.  This is what I'm thinking of in case that wasn't clear.

 

But yeah, just thought this could be a small improvement that you could think about if it isn't too much trouble.  The website overall is very well put together and you've done a fantastic job, thank you!

 



Unknown0ne #192 Posted Sep 23 2017 - 00:45

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View PostHalo__MeU, on Sep 22 2017 - 11:54, said:

Hi UnknownOne,

 

Just want to say what a great website you've put together here.  As a viewer it is easy to use, and as a player I've been amazed at how in-depth the statistics tracking is.

 

I have a little suggestion though, and it's fairly picky to be honest.  If you go to a team's page, then currently someone needs to click on the time of the match in order to go into the match page, which is an amazing page for people to see in depth statistics of the match.  I feel like it would be more intuitive if the final score of the match was a hyperlink that also brought you to the match page.  This is what I'm thinking of in case that wasn't clear.

 

But yeah, just thought this could be a small improvement that you could think about if it isn't too much trouble.  The website overall is very well put together and you've done a fantastic job, thank you!

 

 

Thank you. I'm glad you found the site to be useful.

 

Also, thanks for the feedback: The score of a past match on the team's page is now a link to the match's page.



Capt_Max_Powers #193 Posted Oct 07 2017 - 01:21

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Hi UnknownOne,

 

Thanks for putting all of this together for the community. I have been watching for the past two seasons and have enjoyed spectating and especially scoring some nice prizes.

 

On that topic, I do not seem to have gotten a payout for any games since September 26, 2017, all of which I ranked in the top 1000. Has there been a delay as this is now past the advertised payout within 7 days? As your website states that you are not  part of WG.net, I am not sure where else to inquire about this matter so I took a chance and posted here.

 

One request/suggestion on payouts, I liked how in the past it waited until you logged in to activate premium prizes. Some nights I am just to busy to get in-game, so that was always nice knowing  that a day or two of premium would be waiting for me until I log in on the weekend when I can take greater advantage of this gift. Even better in my opinion would be to issue a code that one could activate when desired, but I am sure that is even more work on your end.

 

Again, thanks for all of the effort that you put into this and look forward to your reply to my post.

 

Capt_Max_Powers

 

BTW - Just curious, were you active in OFP? I remember a player by your name in OFP and they made some cool scripts (tracers?). If so, thanks for all of that fun, if not, then never mind.



invictus97 #194 Posted Oct 07 2017 - 03:33

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same here?

Unknown0ne #195 Posted Oct 09 2017 - 03:15

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View PostCapt_Max_Powers, on Oct 06 2017 - 19:21, said:

Hi UnknownOne,

 

Thanks for putting all of this together for the community. I have been watching for the past two seasons and have enjoyed spectating and especially scoring some nice prizes.

 

On that topic, I do not seem to have gotten a payout for any games since September 26, 2017, all of which I ranked in the top 1000. Has there been a delay as this is now past the advertised payout within 7 days? As your website states that you are not  part of WG.net, I am not sure where else to inquire about this matter so I took a chance and posted here.

 

One request/suggestion on payouts, I liked how in the past it waited until you logged in to activate premium prizes. Some nights I am just to busy to get in-game, so that was always nice knowing  that a day or two of premium would be waiting for me until I log in on the weekend when I can take greater advantage of this gift. Even better in my opinion would be to issue a code that one could activate when desired, but I am sure that is even more work on your end.

 

Again, thanks for all of the effort that you put into this and look forward to your reply to my post.

 

Capt_Max_Powers

 

BTW - Just curious, were you active in OFP? I remember a player by your name in OFP and they made some cool scripts (tracers?). If so, thanks for all of that fun, if not, then never mind.

 

Hello,

 

Sorry for the slow reply.

 

I'm glad you like the site. Currently, it appears prizing for the 26th and beyond has not be paid. I'm hope to have an update on monday, but at this point I don't have an estimate on when prizing will be paid.

 

I'll enquire if there's a way to delay premium time activation till a player signs in; that would be rather nice. A code most likely isn't going to happen for several reasons.

 

---

 

I don't think I've played OFP.



Capt_Max_Powers #196 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 07:00

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Thanks for the follow up U0!

 

All four days of payouts showed up today, actually works out well for me as I have more time after work this week to take advantage of the premium time.

 

Again, thanks for for time in responding as well as keeping the fantasy site up and running!

 

CMP



invictus97 #197 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 18:36

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In receipt!  Thanks, brutha for checking on this and BIG THANKS for putting this whole system together - it's a ton of fun!

Yoott #198 Posted Oct 10 2017 - 22:41

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View PostCapt_Max_Powers, on Oct 09 2017 - 22:00, said:

Thanks for the follow up U0!

 

All four days of payouts showed up today, actually works out well for me as I have more time after work this week to take advantage of the premium time.

 

Again, thanks for for time in responding as well as keeping the fantasy site up and running!

 

CMP

 

I'm going to totally throw @unknown0ne under the bus... here it comes , wait for it, wait for it....

Here it is!!!

 

Second Reason

 

 

LOL Good luck guys in the remaining days, more type 59's to give out, lots of gold and premium time

 

 

 

 



Derp_o7 #199 Posted Oct 11 2017 - 01:08

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View PostYoott, on Oct 10 2017 - 16:41, said:

 

I'm going to totally throw @unknown0ne under the bus... here it comes , wait for it, wait for it....

Here it is!!!

 

Second Reason

 

 

LOL Good luck guys in the remaining days, more type 59's to give out, lots of gold and premium time

 

 

 

 

 

Any bans being given out of any kind for any questionable behavior? 

 

Just kidding. 



flacotejera #200 Posted Oct 12 2017 - 13:16

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View PostYoott, on Oct 10 2017 - 22:41, said:

 

I'm going to totally throw @unknown0ne under the bus... here it comes , wait for it, wait for it....

Here it is!!!

 

Second Reason

 

 

LOL Good luck guys in the remaining days, more type 59's to give out, lots of gold and premium time

 

 

 

 

 

Hola buenos dias hace unos dias reclame la falta de pago de los premios desde hace un tiempo en un ticket que envie por otro error y me pasaron un mail para efectur dicho reclamo envie un mail a la direccion que me pasaron y ni siquiera me contestaron como es el tema porque hace tiempo no pagan los premios y a una doble fecha por semana y manteniendo o subiendo los puntos osea estando dentro del rango de premiacion al ser una doble fecha tendria que ser un doble pago semanal pero no se acredita nada ya hace algunas semanas espero me puedan responder por este medio ya que por el mail nmi para fijarse en el problema.




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