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M4 Sherman vs German 88mm Anti-Tank/Flak Gun -


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Lethalhavoc #141 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 01:35

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 06 2016 - 01:33, said:

Do you know this saying: "the burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim"

 

Prove your claim, because right now I don't believe you at all.

 

You didn't, why should I?

WulfeHound #142 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 01:40

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Sep 05 2016 - 19:35, said:

 

You didn't, why should I?

 

My claim was proven.

Lethalhavoc #143 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 01:41

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 06 2016 - 01:40, said:

 

My claim was proven.

 

By someone else. Maybe someone else will go through the effort to prove mine too.



WulfeHound #144 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 01:44

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Sep 05 2016 - 19:41, said:

 

By someone else. Maybe someone else will go through the effort to prove mine too.

 

And I couldn't prove it because I was on RO for three days. You still haven't proven yours at all

Fasteroid #145 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 01:47

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Sep 05 2016 - 17:35, said:

 

You didn't, why should I?

 

View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 05 2016 - 17:40, said:

 

My claim was proven.

 

View PostLethalhavoc, on Sep 05 2016 - 17:41, said:

 

By someone else. Maybe someone else will go through the effort to prove mine too.

 

View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 05 2016 - 17:44, said:

 

And I couldn't prove it because I was on RO for three days. You still haven't proven yours at all

 

Holy Jesus Christ Almighty [edited].

 

It is not possible to find out how many units/airborne units were used (and if so, which ones) to determine this cause of damage of this poor M4. It could've been from a plethora of strikes, or from one single engagement. I don't know how you guys can waste  so much time over a DAMN PHOTOGRAPH.

 

Sure, OP is hella wrong, but we cannot be for sure over what the hell happened.



WulfeHound #146 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 01:50

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View PostFasteroid, on Sep 05 2016 - 19:47, said:

 

 

 

 

Holy Jesus Christ Almighty [edited].

 

It is not possible to find out how many units/airborne units were used (and if so, which ones) to determine this cause of damage of this poor M4. It could've been from a plethora of strikes, or from one single engagement. I don't know how you guys can waste  so much time over a DAMN PHOTOGRAPH.

 

Sure, OP is hella wrong, but we cannot be for sure over what the hell happened.

 

View PostBronezhilet, on Sep 05 2016 - 02:11, said:

Using a medium bomber for CAS? Using a medium bomber with no static forward facing guns to strafe? How drunk are you, actually?

 

You do realise that welding removes any and all treatment in the surrounding area, right? Here, reading this will be a nice start.

 

 Ah yes, they were so supply starved they used freaking medium bombers in the most dangerous and wasteful way ever.

 

Also, source, source and source.

 

The question was what caused that damage. I determined that based on the photo.

But apparently evidence from a photo isn't enough, because of an hypothetical situation thought up by a random WoT player. Oookay.

 

So if it was a bomb, where's the evidence of fragmentation? You're not going to tell me that hypothetically speaking, chunks of steel flying around at speeds of several kilometers per second somehow missed every part in the photo, are you?

 

Here, have fun finding fragmentation damage on these photos of the same tank:

WAKzId4.png

hB3lQa5.jpg

DHR68s3.png

 

It's not possible to determine what airborne unit did the damage because no airborne unit did the damage to this particular M4.

Fasteroid #147 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 03:22

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 05 2016 - 17:50, said:

 

 

It's not possible to determine what airborne unit did the damage because no airborne unit did the damage to this particular M4.

 

but also the ground unit. we cannot be sure if a JagdTiger or a brummbar came accross this tank first. For Meathead's sake, even a captured kv-2.. There are too many dang possibilities. Probably something along of the lines of an entire dang panzer abteilung ffs. We may only speculate

 

also, it may have been a bomb somehow dropped straight into the inside crew cabin of the bloody tank after the ammorack. I cannot fathom that the tank splinters like a wood like that. holy [edited].

 

An HE shell from a 12,8mm Panzerabwehrkanone would cause [edited]tons of dmg to that sherman aimed at the mg port, for example, or from the rear, or an ammo rack on the side.

 

A 150mm cannon from a capped kv2 could/would/should [edited]up the m4


Edited by Fasteroid, Sep 06 2016 - 03:27.


WulfeHound #148 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 03:27

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View PostFasteroid, on Sep 05 2016 - 21:22, said:

 

but also the ground unit. we cannot be sure if a JagdTiger or a brummbar came accross this tank first.. We may only speculate

 

Considering this is North Africa in the middle of February of 1943, we can limit it to either a 50mm or 75mm AT gun, or a Pz III or Pz IV. Tiger or an emplaced 88mm are also likely, but not that much.

Fasteroid #149 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 03:29

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 05 2016 - 19:27, said:

 

Considering this is North Africa in the middle of February of 1943, we can limit it to either a 50mm or 75mm AT gun, or a Pz III or Pz IV. Tiger or an emplaced 88mm are also likely, but not that much.

 

was there no such thing as a 12,8 AA gun or a 15 cm gun at all?( during the 1943 as well as the rommel schweinhund korps?)

WulfeHound #150 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 03:42

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View PostFasteroid, on Sep 05 2016 - 21:29, said:

 

was there no such thing as a 12,8 AA gun or a 15 cm gun at all?( during the 1943 as well as the rommel schweinhund korps?)

 

In North Africa? No for the 128mm (there was a 128mm flak gun at that time but it was only in Germany) and yes (sort of) for the 150mm. There was the Sturmpz II, which were all lost by December of 1942. I don't know for sure if any 150mm towed pieces made it over to the North African theatre

Lethalhavoc #151 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 04:38

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 06 2016 - 01:44, said:

 

And I couldn't prove it because I was on RO for three days. You still haven't proven yours at all

 

During this time, he reported to British Army commander Harold Alexander, and came into conflict with Air Vice Marshal Arthur Coningham about the lack of close air support being provided for his troops. When Coningham dispatched three officers to Patton's headquarters to persuade him that the British were providing ample air support, they came under German air attack mid-meeting, and part of the ceiling of Patton's office collapsed around them. Speaking later of the German pilots who had struck, Patton remarked, "if I could find the sons of [edited]who flew those planes, I'd mail each of them a medal."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton

Although the following scene is from the movie "Patton" it is a fair representation of the event. Although there is some doubt Patton fired his pistol at them.

Patton: Ordeal and Triumph by Ladislas Farago

A Soldier's Story by General of the Army Omar Bradley


Edited by Lethalhavoc, Sep 06 2016 - 04:45.


WulfeHound #152 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 05:02

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So a wikipedia link and a fictionalized movie are your proof that the He111 was used in CAS?

 

Take a look at this He111H-4 from the N. African theatre. Note how it only has a single flexible MG that can fire directly forwards. Max bombload was only 4400lbs, and that was almost never carried as it cut down on range.

 

Now tell me, what makes you think that this can do CAS with any semblance of effectiveness, in airspace that's littered with light AAA such as 20mm Polstens or Bofors guns.


Edited by WulfeHound, Sep 06 2016 - 05:05.


Donward #153 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 05:59

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Clearly that Sherman was killed by the Desert Fox himself when he pointed his finger at it and said "Bang!"

 

Proof that the Germans had MIND BULLETS!

 

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

 

 

PROVE THE GERMANS DIDN'T HAVE TELEKINETIC WEAPONS!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!11!!!

 


Edited by Donward, Sep 06 2016 - 06:00.


Lethalhavoc #154 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 07:35

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View PostWulfeHound, on Sep 06 2016 - 05:02, said:

So a wikipedia link and a fictionalized movie are your proof that the He111 was used in CAS?

 

Take a look at this He111H-4 from the N. African theatre. Note how it only has a single flexible MG that can fire directly forwards. Max bombload was only 4400lbs, and that was almost never carried as it cut down on range.

 

Now tell me, what makes you think that this can do CAS with any semblance of effectiveness, in airspace that's littered with light AAA such as 20mm Polstens or Bofors guns.

 

Read the 2 books I mentioned.

Patton: Ordeal and Triumph by Ladislas Farago

A Soldier's Story by General of the Army Omar Bradley



Bronezhilet #155 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 07:51

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Sep 06 2016 - 00:34, said:

Sigh, why must you make such obviously incorrect statements?

Please take 2 seconds out of your busy life and look up the HE-111, you will notice that it does have a forward machine gun.

Since you can't even grasp the machinegun concept, I doubt you will ever grasp the close air support concept either and the DAK's need to press every available asset into battle.

How hard is reading, actually? I said it has no static forward firing machine guns.

 

Block Quote

If the steel was weakened by the welds, the welding tabs would be ROUNDED and not squared. Correct? Since if they were weakened and the corners receiving more heat then the straight edges?

For your argument on that to be valid, they would have to be ROUND, do you understand?

This is far more likely, they used of the wrong welding rod/wire which makes the welds brittle. Which is hardly a surprise considering it was a transition vehicle, from Lee/Grant rivets to M4 welds.

Can you... can you actually make sense for once? Because right now you aren't, it's fairly obvious you know jack crapabout metallurgy.

 

Block Quote

Lastly, I stated that no one, not you, or I, or anyone else could truly determine the cause of the damage by the ONE photograph.

Kudos, you've now went out and found 3 more photographs and a cause can be determined.

And even though it baffles the imagination at the waste of resources, it does appear to be a demo charge.

Except I did, but you didn't believe me because "Mein Deutsches HE-111 superiority". The first picture doesn't show fragmentation damage either, but I knew you'd start with "You can't see the inside of the tank so you don't know the damage on the inside therefore it was a bomber!", even though a steel fragment flying at ~2 km/s would definitely deform the outside of the sponson sides. I looked for extra photos to prevent that [edited], and it took me about 10 seconds to find these photos. But hey, nice cop-out I guess.

 

Ah yes, using explosives (which are super cheap) is a waste, yet flying an expensive and slow medium bomber into 40 mils isn't. Ooookay.

 

View PostFasteroid, on Sep 06 2016 - 03:22, said:

but also the ground unit. we cannot be sure if a JagdTiger or a brummbar came accross this tank first. For Meathead's sake, even a captured kv-2.. There are too many dang possibilities. Probably something along of the lines of an entire dang panzer abteilung ffs. We may only speculate

 

also, it may have been a bomb somehow dropped straight into the inside crew cabin of the bloody tank after the ammorack. I cannot fathom that the tank splinters like a wood like that. holy [edited].

 

An HE shell from a 12,8mm Panzerabwehrkanone would cause [edited]tons of dmg to that sherman aimed at the mg port, for example, or from the rear, or an ammo rack on the side.

 

A 150mm cannon from a capped kv2 could/would/should [edited]up the m4

It's been discussed at length in this very topic that it was a demolition charge that caused this damage. We don't know how big the demolition charge was, but it was absolutely done by a demolition charge.

 



Donward #156 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 08:01

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View PostBronezhilet, on Sep 05 2016 - 22:51, said:

How hard is reading, actually? I said it has no static forward firing machine guns.

 

Can you... can you actually make sense for once? Because right now you aren't, it's fairly obvious you know jack crapabout metallurgy.

 

Except I did, but you didn't believe me because "Mein Deutsches HE-111 superiority". The first picture doesn't show fragmentation damage either, but I knew you'd start with "You can't see the inside of the tank so you don't know the damage on the inside therefore it was a bomber!", even though a steel fragment flying at ~2 km/s would definitely deform the outside of the sponson sides. I looked for extra photos to prevent that [edited], and it took me about 10 seconds to find these photos. But hey, nice cop-out I guess.

 

Ah yes, using explosives (which are super cheap) is a waste, yet flying an expensive and slow medium bomber into 40 mils isn't. Ooookay.

 

It's been discussed at length in this very topic that it was a demolition charge that caused this damage. We don't know how big the demolition charge was, but it was absolutely done by a demolition charge.

 

 

Ehrmagerd, Bronze!

 

I just said it could be MIND BULLETS fired from the Desert Fox's finger!

 

Prove me wrong!!



Bronezhilet #157 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 08:22

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View PostDonward, on Sep 06 2016 - 08:01, said:

Ehrmagerd, Bronze!

 

I just said it could be MIND BULLETS fired from the Desert Fox's finger!

 

Prove me wrong!!

Which finger?



Lethalhavoc #158 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 16:03

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View PostBronezhilet, on Sep 06 2016 - 07:51, said:

How hard is reading, actually? I said it has no static forward firing machine guns.

 

Can you... can you actually make sense for once? Because right now you aren't, it's fairly obvious you know jack crapabout metallurgy.

 

Except I did, but you didn't believe me because "Mein Deutsches HE-111 superiority". The first picture doesn't show fragmentation damage either, but I knew you'd start with "You can't see the inside of the tank so you don't know the damage on the inside therefore it was a bomber!", even though a steel fragment flying at ~2 km/s would definitely deform the outside of the sponson sides. I looked for extra photos to prevent that [edited], and it took me about 10 seconds to find these photos. But hey, nice cop-out I guess.

 

Ah yes, using explosives (which are super cheap) is a waste, yet flying an expensive and slow medium bomber into 40 mils isn't. Ooookay.

 

It's been discussed at length in this very topic that it was a demolition charge that caused this damage. We don't know how big the demolition charge was, but it was absolutely done by a demolition charge.

 

 

1) You don't need a forward facing static machine gun to strafe..... http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/strafe

2) I suggest you actually read my posts concerning my opinions on what caused the damage.

3) I'm really not interested in trying to teach you an entire semester worth of DAK history, if you want to learn it, by all means do so on your own.

You can start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Mediterranean

4) I've obviously failed horribly to explain the welds, maybe because I tried to explain it as I would to a small child assuming that you would understand?

I've been lucky enough to find a video showing examples in some Panthers being restored. Notice the destruction of the one Panthers front plate, and notice the destruction of the other Panthers turret.

Now, if you were right about the welds, the front plate and turret would not be damaged like that, would they?

Enjoy!

 


Edited by Lethalhavoc, Sep 06 2016 - 16:24.


Bronezhilet #159 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 17:31

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Sep 06 2016 - 16:03, said:

1) You don't need a forward facing static machine gun to strafe..... http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/strafe

How is the pilot going to control that machinegun properly?

 

"Front gunner, shoot the black truck!"

*braaaap*

"Front gunner, not that truck, the other one!

*braaap*

"Front gunner, no! Not that one either, the one to the left"

*braaaaap*

"THE OTHER LEFT"

 

Except that totally wouldn't happen because A) the plane would have overshot by a significant margin after the first command, and B) everybody on the plane most likely would have eaten a bullet or two since its a medium bomber doing low flying attacks.

 

Other than that, can you actually link me a source where it's proven that the HE-111 was employed as CAS? No, Wikipedia doesn't count.

You know, burden of proof and all.

 

Block Quote

3) I'm really not interested in trying to teach you an entire semester worth of DAK history, if you want to learn it, by all means do so on your own.

You can start here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Mediterranean

What does the history of DAK have to do with whether or not they employed a medium bomber in a CAS role. I only need proof they employed a medium bomber in a CAS role. And as of yet I have not seen any proof what-so-ever.

 

Block Quote

4) I've obviously failed horribly to explain the welds, maybe because I tried to explain it as I would to a small child assuming that you would understand?

How can you explain something you don't even understand?

 

Block Quote

I've been lucky enough to find a video showing examples in some Panthers being restored. Notice the destruction of the one Panthers front plate, and notice the destruction of the other Panthers turret.

Now, if you were right about the welds, the front plate and turret would not be damaged like that, would they?

If you had actually properly read my posts, you would have known I said "especially against tension". Which is exactly what an explosion going off inside a box is loading on the welds. As opposed to a hit from the outside on said box, because in that situation the welds would be loaded with compression and a little bit of tension, if any tension at all because the compression part of the equation is a lot higher. But you wouldn't know that, you don't know anything about terminal ballistics. Or metallurgy. Or engineering.

 

Plus, something being a weak point doesn't mean it's always going to fail and fail in the same manner. But you wouldn't know about that, you don't know anything about terminal ballistics.

 



mrmojo #160 Posted Sep 06 2016 - 18:35

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Not sure why you think the pilot would be telling the machine gunner in a plane what to shoot - bizarre concept...




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