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Japanese Tank Tree & Guns Discussion

Started by arisaka38 , Jul 31 2011 - 17:02

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arisaka38 #1 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 17:02

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Revised 2012/10/10
Remove 140t heavy
Add tier 10 MT
revise  TD line
Add tier 5 LT and revise LT line
Removed "Type3 15-cm Tank Gun"
Added "Type "Ge" Experimental 75-mm Anti-Tank Gun"
Added American penetration data report for below guns
  • Naval Type 96 25-mm Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun
  • Type94 37-mm Tank Gun
  • Type100 37-mm Tank Gun
  • Type1 37-mm Tank Gun
  • Type1 47-mm Tank Gun
  • Type94 7-cm Tank Gun
  • Type90 Field Gun
  • Type91 10-cm Howitzer
  • Type96 15-cm Howitzer
previous edit
Spoiler
Hi I'm one of the WoT player from Japan.
I'm very interested in Japanese tank tree, and now I suggest new Japanese tank tree with armaments plan.

Also I had posted Japanese tank tree suggestion in beta.
http://forum.worldof...post__p__383593
At researching the Japanese tank tree, I have noticed that the information of Japanese tank guns are very limited on the web, especially in non-Japanese source. The armaments are very important for tank tree discussion. It's not too much to say that a gun performance decides tank's tier.
When you discuss Japanese tank tree, Its historical gun may looks very weak. But by searching armaments, its potentional armaments brings another vision. It might help discussion.
1.Japanese Tank Tree & Guns Plan
2.Historical Japanses tank gun list
3.Supplementary:Non-Tank Guns
4.Sources


1.Japanese Tank Tree & Guns Plan
At first, I attached revised My Japanese tank tree plan.
Revised 2012/10/10
Posted Image
As you look at these caliber, Japanese tanks seems to be not too weak. Isn't it?
Most guns will not well known. So I added descriptions below. Furthermore, This tree contains non-historical mounting to fill lacking positions. Some of these guns are not tank gun in history. I also shows these non-tank gun's detail as Supplementary.
previous tree
Spoiler

2.Historical Japanses tank gun list
Second, I explain  every single guns detail. This list is toooooooooo long, so you may not read without coffee  http://forum.worldoftanks.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sleep.gif
Spoiler

3.Supplementary:Non-Tank Guns
As above stated, Japanese army lacks some class of guns, like 90mm and 120mm and others. But these class guns may have needed for game balance. So I added this supplementary. As alternatives of these lacked class, I listed some non-tank guns below. These guns are not planned to mount on tanks in history. Also they are not simply replacable structurally in contrast to some of above guns. But if game-balancing demands these class guns, below guns are considerable...
Spoiler
Even though I add non-historical guns, Japanese SPG lacks long 15cm class and 20cm class guns. It is easy to put Type89 15-cm cannon(L/40) on "Ji-Ro" or "Ho-Chi". But it is too non-historical. I suggest DPS fighting style with super long 10-cm cannon.

4.Sources
Spoiler

Tupinambis #2 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 17:10

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Awesome new tree design.
I have to ask you though, do you think there's any way to extend the Japanese medium line into Tier 9? I imagine that the a "mostly fictional" variant of the Type 5 Chi-Ri could be extend into Tier 8 if the WoT devs decide to give it a bigger gun and armor/engine power beyond what it was actually planned to carry. In your original tree I remember you had the Type 61. Since it was designed in 1955 I'm starting to think that it could actually be appropriate to implement in this game.

Dominatus #3 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 17:12

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Surprised that you found enough to make a 'full' tech tree. It's missing a medium tank line though. Also surprised that you put the O-I as tier 9.

Nice work, in any case. Also, ever thought of replacing the NC with the FT-Ko? That way we'll get 3 tier 1 tanks which are FT-17s.

ghostumour #4 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 17:37

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cool tree and the fruits will be delicious!
You might have so much time to grow that tree
but its great!

GRB_Duck #5 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 17:43

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Great work!
Can you please name any HISTORICAL Japanese tank battles?

I can't think of one that people want to talk about let alone recreate.

lostwingman #6 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 18:15

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View PostGRB_Duck, on Jul 31 2011 - 17:43, said:

Great work!
Can you please name any HISTORICAL Japanese tank battles?

I can't think of one that people want to talk about let alone recreate.

There weren't many massed tank battles involving the japanese in the far east unless you count the russians invading manchuria. Japan was mostly equipped with light tanks and dispersed them for use as infantry support.
They saw a lot of action, just not in much of a concentrated sense.

@cipher12 #7 Posted Jul 31 2011 - 22:51

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Quickly someone send this to the developers rightttttttt after the Commonwealth of course XD, anyway great work must of taken forever to research.

arisaka38 #8 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 14:31

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Thanks for many reply :)

View PostTupinambis, on Jul 31 2011 - 17:10, said:

Awesome new tree design.
I have to ask you though, do you think there's any way to extend the Japanese medium line into Tier 9? I imagine that the a "mostly fictional" variant of the Type 5 Chi-Ri could be extend into Tier 8 if the WoT devs decide to give it a bigger gun and armor/engine power beyond what it was actually planned to carry. In your original tree I remember you had the Type 61. Since it was designed in 1955 I'm starting to think that it could actually be appropriate to implement in this game.
I researched "Chi-Ri" again and I found that improved Type-5 was really planned. It called "Chi-Ri II". Its engine was changed to turbocharged diesel and hull 37mm gun was removed. Removing 37mm gun will brings better protection. Its hull is 80cm shorter because its turbocharged diesel is smaller than "Chi-Ri I"'s gasoline engine. Sadly, any armaments improving was not planned.
If "mostly fictional" setting is allowed (like VK45.02p), "Chi-Ri II" can be placed on tier 8 or even tier 9. Japanese tanks was attached 25mm additional armor every once in a while. Such additional armor was applied for "Chi-ha" and also planned for "Chi-Nu". So adding more armor to "Chi-Ri II" is not completely fictional.
Placing "Chi-Ri II" on tier8 makes MT line available. Here I post a revised complete MT line. I also revised first post.
Posted Image
There is room to discuss for "Chi-Ri II"'s armament. Normally, tier 8 MTs has long 90mm class gun like 8.8cm L/71 or 90mm T15. But there is no such gun in Japan. It seems that Type61 MT's 90mm gun can be fits this position. But pre-war tank with post-war gun seems bit strange. Here is "Type61 90-mm Tank Gun"'s details.
English name   : Type61 90-mm Tank Gun
Japanese name  : 61式90mm戦車砲
Reading		: Rokuiti Shiki Kyuujyuu miri Sensya Ho
Gun Weight	 : Unknown
Barrel Langth  : L/52
Cartridge	  : 90 x 600R
Acceptted	  : 1961

Used in History
	Type61 Tank

Projectiles
*AP
	English name   : M318A1 APCBC
	Japanese name  : M318A1風帽付被帽徹甲
	Reading		: Emu San-iti-hati Ei Iti Fuubou Tuki Tekkoudan
	Shell weight   : Unknown
	Muzzle velocity: 910m/s
	Penetration	: 189mm @ 1000m
	Filling		: Unknown

*HE
	English name   : M71 HE
	Japanese name  : M71榴弾
	Reading		: Emu Nana-iti Ryuudan
	Shell weight   : Unknown
	Muzzle velocity: Unknown
	Penetration	: Unknown
	Filling		: Unknown

*HEAT
	English name   : M431 HEAT
	Japanese name  : M431対戦車榴弾
	Reading		: Emu Yon-san-hati Taisensya Ryuudan
	Shell weight   : Unknown
	Muzzle velocity: Unknown
	Penetration	: 190mm @ 60 degree
	Filling		: 544g Explosive

Notes
This gun is JSGDF's postwar gun. It was made with reference from American 90-mm M3 tank gun. It has bit longer barrel but it can use same ammunition.
If pre-war tank with post-war gun is not accepted, "Chi-Ri II" must have Non automated 10.5c-m gun. I listed both pattern. Type92 10.5-cm gun may be similar to Russian good 107mm gun.
About Type61 armaments, 90mm seems to be too weak, so it needs "post-war tank with pre-war gun". I listed the "Experimental 10-cm Tank Gun (Long)" on tree. Automated 10.5cm for MT will seems to be too powerful for MT. But Type61's armor is extremely thin (Turret:114/100/40 Hull:55/36/36) so It needs firepower.
I know only Type61's surface. More research is needed. But it's clear that there is no 105mm plan in history.

arisaka38 #9 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 15:03

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View PostDominatus, on Jul 31 2011 - 17:12, said:

Surprised that you found enough to make a 'full' tech tree. It's missing a medium tank line though. Also surprised that you put the O-I as tier 9.

Nice work, in any case. Also, ever thought of replacing the NC with the FT-Ko? That way we'll get 3 tier 1 tanks which are FT-17s.
I think original FT-17 is too slow speed even as tier1.
FT-17 's maximam speed is only 8km/h but NC is almost same as MS-1.
Another Japanese tank for tier1, Experimental tank Mark1 (Sisei 1 Go Sensya) can be placed. But I think this tank is too powerful as tier1. It had short-57mm gun, 5 crews, 17mm armor and 18t weight.

thetap #10 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 15:13

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Nice work!

HLS30 #11 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 18:16

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Nice work Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut:


Please, PLEASE put some spoiler tags in there to clean it up a bit for the reading :P

arisaka38 #12 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 20:55

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View PostHLS30, on Aug 01 2011 - 18:16, said:

Nice work Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut:


Please, PLEASE put some spoiler tags in there to clean it up a bit for the reading :P
Thanks HLS30.
I tried to apply such tags at first posting, but I didn't know its tag name :facepalmic:
Now it's bit slim.

Dominatus #13 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 21:03

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Get what you mean about the FT-Ko. I guess the French FT-17 will probably ahve some later upgrades in it.

As for the rest of the tree, I have problems figuring out what the 100t and the 140t heavy are. We all know the O-I of course, but I can't find anything on those two.

SoukouDragon #14 Posted Aug 01 2011 - 23:18

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Very impressive tech tree.

At first, I was skeptical about the Type 61 because a production version was not ready until around 1960 which could be called as very late or too late for the WoT time frame. But, in regards to performance, firepower would be about the same as m46 or T54, but less armor then M46. So maybe it is not too much to ask for the type 61 to slip in for fans of Japanese tech. Basically, despite later production time, in terms of tank generations, its the same as m46 or T54.

Type 61's only advantage that I could see, which is a small advantage, is its small size, almost exactly same height as T-54 but quite a bit more narrow and shorter length. But, despite smaller size, type 61 still not faster then T54, but not by much I think. Certainly adds more variety in a balanced way  :)

arisaka38 #15 Posted Aug 02 2011 - 10:04

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View PostDominatus, on Aug 01 2011 - 21:03, said:

Get what you mean about the FT-Ko. I guess the French FT-17 will probably ahve some later upgrades in it.

As for the rest of the tree, I have problems figuring out what the 100t and the 140t heavy are. We all know the O-I of course, but I can't find anything on those two.
Oh, I had forgotten french tree and I have misread your post :P
afaik, Renault NC is almost same with Char D1, which is french tier2 tank. So I think Renault NC for tier1 is not so good. FT is better. But three FT-17s (French:FT, Japanese: FT Russian:MS-1, ) on tier1 seems identikit
Then, I have another plan for tier1, it is Medium Mark A Whippet. In 1919, Japanese army had imported 3 Whippets and some Renaults. And in May 1 1925, 1st tank group was recruited with these Whippets and Renaults, which is first Japanese tank group. So Whippet is one the of milestone for Japanese tank history.
There is some problems for Whippet. First, Japanese Whippets has no cannons. But in red army, a Whippet was equipped Puteaux 37mm gun, thus gun armed Whippet is not completely fictional. Second, It has no turret. But i think it is minor irritant because there is no rules that tier1 tank must have turret. So, Placing Whippet as Japanese tire1 is not impossible.

About Japanese super heavies, 100t heavy was really made. It is no secret that 120t O-I project was started in 1944. Meanwhile, in 1940, colonel Iwakuro started 100t heavy tank project, under the influence of defeat in Battles of Khalkhin Gol. In that project, it was armed10cm and 7.5cm cannon, one machinegun, and protected by 75+75mm fontal and 35+35mm side armor, driven 25km/h with 550hp x2 diesel engine. Its silhouette is said looks enlarged Type89 medium tank. Its suspension performance was extremely poor, which was completely different style from 120t O-I's one.
As for 140t heavy, To be honest, i can't find such project. It is nothing more than said that 120t "O-I" may be weighted 140t. But in previous Japanese tank tree topic, Overlord mentioned 140t heavy in tier10.
http://forum.worldof...786#entry384786

togo281 #16 Posted Aug 02 2011 - 17:07

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The Japanese made the worst tanks in the world in WWII, they got beat every time they went against other tanks. in China vs. Russia's and elsewhere vs. the US & British. They were designed mainly to support infantry and not Tank vs. Tank and were little more than armored cars. The jungle and mountains of most pacific islands were just not suited for  tanks.  A 50 cal. machine gun could penetrate most Japanese tanks. The few good tanks they made were produced in very low numbers, Japan just didn't have the steel or machine tools at that time to make good tanks or the fuel to support them. A 90mm gun on a Japanese tank, it's pure fantasy land, might as well as add missile launchers. I hope we see the British tanks before Japanese.

Bore #17 Posted Aug 02 2011 - 17:32

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What is Russia's former and current attitude towards Japan? I think that will influence balance more than history...

Dominatus #18 Posted Aug 02 2011 - 17:51

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Russia and Japan currently have less than favourable relations at the moment. BELARUS and Japan though, I have no clue. I don't think they care about each other much. Besides, Overlord already stated that the tech tree Arisaka made is close to their ideas.

As for thw Whippet idea, the thing lacked a turret, but wasn't the idea that the crew took a gun and move it between firing ports? If they make that like the multi-gun system (but counts as only 1-2 main guns), it could work. Arnament may be an issue though....

ghostumour #19 Posted Aug 02 2011 - 18:02

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I am really waiting for the nwe tanks to come
I wonder how the armor and guns will be

Kazunemaru #20 Posted Aug 02 2011 - 18:35

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The tree looks pretty good, my only concern is the Type 4 "Ha-To" not being included in the actual tree because it's more of an armored truck, though fully tracked.

I believe the name "O-I" is a name given to a series of proposed super heavy tanks, so both the 120t and 140t are in that series; the 100t is not.  I'm pretty sure that both were planned to at least mount a modified 105mm gun as a main armament.  The 120t is said to have been built and sent to Manchuria (featuring 3 turrets) while the 140t was planned to feature no less than 4 turrets (2 front, 1 main center, 1 rear).  Armor values of the O-I should rival that of the Maus/KV-5.

If you think about it, following a similar doctrine as the IJN, you could say the O-I series were meant to be the "Yamato" class on land.
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