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Japanese Tank Tree & Guns Discussion


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Legiondude #6741 Posted Sep 13 2014 - 19:50

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For some reason I haven't been getting updates on this topic since May >_>



SoukouDragon #6742 Posted Sep 14 2014 - 18:22

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140mm pen at 100m is quite strong. I vaguely remember an old turn based top down view game called Steel Panthers World at War which had Chi-To/Chi-Ri pen at 145. If I recall correctly, Tiger was at 156, Panther at 189, Tiger 2 at 233. The makers supposedly did their homework and use formulas to calculate in-game pen over distance and what not. Interesting that spWaW matches up with that penetration data. Also it is not so surprising giving that the US 76 muzzle velocity was 790sm/s where as the Type 5 75mm muzzle velocity is quite higher at 850m/s so its going to pen quite a bit more.

 

At 500m, from the Type 3 75mm cannon, Type 1 AP pens 80 steel plate and with the kou toku, it pens 100m. 25% increase.

 

So taking that 25 percent and applying it to the koutoku with 140 makes

 

140 + 35 = indeed is an estimated 175 pen with koutoku.

 

The tanks are already balanced in my opinion. The greater pen might actually hurt the tanks currently by causing the need to reduce soft stats. Or have the Chi-To and/or Chi-Ri take a -15/-25 pen and use the top penetrating combo for any tier 8 MT stock cannon. Interesting little dilemma.



Life_In_Black #6743 Posted Sep 14 2014 - 18:51

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View PostSoukouDragon, on Sep 14 2014 - 13:22, said:

140mm pen at 100m is quite strong. I vaguely remember an old turn based top down view game called Steel Panthers World at War which had Chi-To/Chi-Ri pen at 145. If I recall correctly, Tiger was at 156, Panther at 189, Tiger 2 at 233. The makers supposedly did their homework and use formulas to calculate in-game pen over distance and what not. Interesting that spWaW matches up with that penetration data. Also it is not so surprising giving that the US 76 muzzle velocity was 790sm/s where as the Type 5 75mm muzzle velocity is quite higher at 850m/s so its going to pen quite a bit more.

 

At 500m, from the Type 3 75mm cannon, Type 1 AP pens 80 steel plate and with the kou toku, it pens 100m. 25% increase.

 

So taking that 25 percent and applying it to the koutoku with 140 makes

 

140 + 35 = indeed is an estimated 175 pen with koutoku.

 

The tanks are already balanced in my opinion. The greater pen might actually hurt the tanks currently by causing the need to reduce soft stats. Or have the Chi-To and/or Chi-Ri take a -15/-25 pen and use the top penetrating combo for any tier 8 MT stock cannon. Interesting little dilemma.

 

Given the Panther's 7.5cm L/100 and the tier 7 light tanks (with the exception of the Aufkl. Panther) with guns that have very similar penetration, I don't see this being an issue, at least for the Chi-Ri. I'm curious though, where did the original penetration data come from that this is different?

SoukouDragon #6744 Posted Sep 14 2014 - 19:19

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 14 2014 - 18:51, said:

 

Given the Panther's 7.5cm L/100 and the tier 7 light tanks (with the exception of the Aufkl. Panther) with guns that have very similar penetration, I don't see this being an issue, at least for the Chi-Ri. I'm curious though, where did the original penetration data come from that this is different?

 

Mostly Dai's estimations I think. We have the AP shell weight and the muzzle velocity for the Type 5 tank gun. Giving that I'm horrible with math, I didn't bother to try figureing out the pen. Dai posted a rare penetration chart.

Legiondude #6745 Posted Sep 14 2014 - 21:09

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 14 2014 - 12:51, said:

 

Given the Panther's 7.5cm L/100 and the tier 7 light tanks (with the exception of the Aufkl. Panther) with guns that have very similar penetration, I don't see this being an issue

It has to do with having so much pen AND RoF

 

Not only being an IS in firepower, but penetrating like one and still fast firing as well



Daigensui #6746 Posted Sep 14 2014 - 21:13

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View PostSoukouDragon, on Sep 14 2014 - 10:22, said:

The tanks are already balanced in my opinion. The greater pen might actually hurt the tanks currently by causing the need to reduce soft stats. Or have the Chi-To and/or Chi-Ri take a -15/-25 pen and use the top penetrating combo for any tier 8 MT stock cannon. Interesting little dilemma.

 

I'm thinking of going the simple way and buffing the Autoloading Type 5. That means Chi-Ri can survive at the upper tiers.

 

View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 14 2014 - 10:51, said:

I'm curious though, where did the original penetration data come from that this is different?

 

Imperial Guard 3rd Division testing records, sometime from late 1944. 

 

7.5 cm Tank Gun Type 5
- Ammunition
1) 7.5 cm Armor-Piercing Type 1 APHE
Weight: 6.615 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Penetration: 124 mm (300m: 118mm / 400m: 115mm / 500m: 112mm / 1,000m: 100mm)
Filling: 65g Explosive
2) 7.5 cm Armor-Piercing Type 1 Toku Kou APHE
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Penetration: 155 mm
3) 7.5 cm High-Explosive Type 4 HE
Muzzle Velocity: 858 m/s

 

 

 

I should have mentioned this, but the new test was from April 1945, so it's the latest testing records we have. Likely IJA put more effort into ammo making after 1944, thus the increase in muzzle velocity and penetration.



sp15 #6747 Posted Sep 14 2014 - 21:33

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View PostDaigensui, on Sep 14 2014 - 21:13, said:

 

I'm thinking of going the simple way and buffing the Autoloading Type 5. That means Chi-Ri can survive at the upper tiers.

 

well it would be nice to be able to pen things like e75's or ST-1's from the side reliably without loading gold

Life_In_Black #6748 Posted Sep 15 2014 - 00:16

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View PostLegiondude, on Sep 14 2014 - 16:09, said:

It has to do with having so much pen AND RoF

 

Not only being an IS in firepower, but penetrating like one and still fast firing as well

 

The Panther and the upcoming Walker Bulldog (not to mention the T71 we already have) all have both that penetration and RoF.

 

View PostDaigensui, on Sep 14 2014 - 16:13, said:

 

I'm thinking of going the simple way and buffing the Autoloading Type 5. That means Chi-Ri can survive at the upper tiers.

 

 

Imperial Guard 3rd Division testing records, sometime from late 1944. 

 

7.5 cm Tank Gun Type 5
- Ammunition
1) 7.5 cm Armor-Piercing Type 1 APHE
Weight: 6.615 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Penetration: 124 mm (300m: 118mm / 400m: 115mm / 500m: 112mm / 1,000m: 100mm)
Filling: 65g Explosive
2) 7.5 cm Armor-Piercing Type 1 Toku Kou APHE
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Penetration: 155 mm
3) 7.5 cm High-Explosive Type 4 HE
Muzzle Velocity: 858 m/s

 

 

 

I should have mentioned this, but the new test was from April 1945, so it's the latest testing records we have. Likely IJA put more effort into ammo making after 1944, thus the increase in muzzle velocity and penetration.

 

Yeah, buffing one specific gun and using better ammo as justification sounds much easier than trying to rebalance everything.

Legiondude #6749 Posted Sep 15 2014 - 00:43

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 14 2014 - 18:16, said:

 

The Panther and the upcoming Walker Bulldog (not to mention the T71 we already have) all have both that penetration and RoF.

The Panther at the moment has less DPM than either the Type 5 Model I or the Autoloader, and the lights get balanced by seeing tier 10s

 

But I'm not WG's balancing department, so alright, lets see what happens



Life_In_Black #6750 Posted Sep 15 2014 - 00:52

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View PostLegiondude, on Sep 14 2014 - 19:43, said:

The Panther at the moment has less DPM than either the Type 5 Model I or the Autoloader, and the lights get balanced by seeing tier 10s

 

But I'm not WG's balancing department, so alright, lets see what happens

 

How much less is the Panther's DPM?

Legiondude #6751 Posted Sep 15 2014 - 00:57

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Sep 14 2014 - 18:52, said:

How much less is the Panther's DPM?

~1920 vs 2019 with the Autloader

vs 2259.5 with the non autoloader



Life_In_Black #6752 Posted Sep 15 2014 - 01:28

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View PostLegiondude, on Sep 14 2014 - 19:57, said:

~1920 vs 2019 with the Autloader

vs 2259.5 with the non autoloader

 

Considering the difference in penetration, that's a remarkably similar DPM vs. the autoloader.

SoukouDragon #6753 Posted Sep 15 2014 - 13:19

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View PostDaigensui, on Sep 14 2014 - 21:13, said:

 

I'm thinking of going the simple way and buffing the Autoloading Type 5. That means Chi-Ri can survive at the upper tiers.

 

 

 

 I have had plenty of matches in the Chi-Ri with tier 9 tanks and was one of the upper damage dealers. With tier 9 tanks, just play as supporter. No tier 7 should be able to hold its own vs a tier 9 tank alone. But I won't complain if it gets a pen buff :veryhappy: But honestly, I've looked at a lot of Chi-Ri stats from many players to see how the Chi-Ri is generally doing and despite all the complaints about its size, mobility, and low armor, the trend I've seen shows it doesn't under perform. I wouldn't be surprised if a pen buff makes it slightly OP in the hands of a player who is comfortable with the Chi-Ri.

 

 

View PostDaigensui, on Sep 14 2014 - 21:13, said:

Imperial Guard 3rd Division testing records, sometime from late 1944. 

 

7.5 cm Tank Gun Type 5
- Ammunition
1) 7.5 cm Armor-Piercing Type 1 APHE
Weight: 6.615 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Penetration: 124 mm (300m: 118mm / 400m: 115mm / 500m: 112mm / 1,000m: 100mm)
Filling: 65g Explosive
2) 7.5 cm Armor-Piercing Type 1 Toku Kou APHE
Muzzle Velocity: 821 m/s
Penetration: 155 mm
3) 7.5 cm High-Explosive Type 4 HE
Muzzle Velocity: 858 m/s

 

 

 

I should have mentioned this, but the new test was from April 1945, so it's the latest testing records we have. Likely IJA put more effort into ammo making after 1944, thus the increase in muzzle velocity and penetration.

 

 

My mistake, I remember seeing those numbers now.

 

 

 






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