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Sliphantom on WoT P2W?(Pay for Advantage)


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Mainerd #21 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:45

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Oct 07 2016 - 08:43, said:

 

pay to progress is one thing

but gold rounds is the bigger issue (as he says)

 

Ask Ma to raise your allowance.

 



SilentPOH #22 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:46

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Oct 07 2016 - 09:43, said:

 

pay to progress is one thing

but gold rounds is the bigger issue (as he says)

 

"gold" rounds really isn't an issue as far as P2W goes, cause every tom, [edited], & harry shoot em all day long for "credits"

Strike_Witch_Tomoko #23 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:47

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View PostMainerd, on Oct 07 2016 - 07:44, said:

 

Look at the hate for the ARP ships from those that are not into it. They even hid them in their own port. 

 

I would think the gnome tanks would be a special event tank rather than a tech tree tank. Like the moonball tanks.

 

heres the thing

they can easily TURN OFF THE SKIN in the menu.   and thus have the ship use a normal skin.

 

aka, the only people seeing the skin are those who like it.  or those to idiotic to listen to devs who have been screaming that "if you don't like it, you can disable it in ONE CLICK"

 

 



KatzeWolf #24 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:47

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View PostMainerd, on Oct 08 2016 - 00:40, said:

 

 

If the equipment cost gold then yes. 

 

Gold, or 20k credits... Earn more, spend more.

Ogopogo #25 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:47

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Oct 07 2016 - 15:43, said:

 

pay to progress is one thing

but gold rounds is the bigger issue (as he says)

 

Any non-cosmetic paid service is rather tied to the use of gold ammo as to whether it is pay to win or not. If you take them out of the equation (either by changing or removing them) it becomes a much different discussion.

KatzeWolf #26 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:48

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View PostMainerd, on Oct 08 2016 - 00:44, said:

 

Look at the hate for the ARP ships from those that are not into it. They even hid them in their own port. 

 

I would think the gnome tanks would be a special event tank rather than a tech tree tank. Like the moonball tanks.

 

They hid them, I don't see the problem here...

Maxx_Rage #27 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:49

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View PostOgopogo, on Oct 07 2016 - 14:30, said:

I agree with the points made in the video almost entirely. Wot monitization does really fall flat compared to other games, but it exsists as pretty much the only option on the market.

 

That aside, yes, I do believe WOT has some pay to win elements which could be toned back as a whole a bit. And before anyone jumps down my throat saying anything bought doesn't guarantee a win, you are thinking too literally. Like in the video, nothing is a game is ever perfectly balanced or unbalanced but rather somewhere in between. Similarly, any non-cosmetic premium in game service in any game is going to fall somewhere on a spectrum of pay-to-win or not. And like balance, minor pay-to-win features can exist in the game without the game relying on this.

 

Let's list off the pay services for the game.

Premium Accounts

Premium Vehicles

Free experience conversion

Crew Training

Equipment Dismounting

Gold rounds (and yes, I will come back to this).

Camo

 

Premium accounts is individually one of the services in game that only be seen as pay to win due to other elements of the game. Premium accounts allow for greater net income, allowing players to use more costly and better loadouts, and allow players to progress through the stock stage of any tank faster. The whole stock stage of a tank is overall rather inoffensive, but it is a slight difference over the lifetime performance of a player. If there was no premium ammunition and no stock stage of a tank, there would be no element of P2W whatsoever.

 

Premium vehicles... So outside some possibly dubious vehicles (Cromwell B or Skorpion), and quite obvious ones (Pz IIJ), there is nothing wrong here. Again, higher net income results in better loadouts, but that's it.

 

Free experience conversion. A player who converts free experience to skip stock modules of a tank will have better performance over the lifetime of the tank than someone who doesn't.

 

Crew Training. This is something which really needs to change. If you started from tier 1, and used gold to retrain each tank, the difference between that crew, and one which only does 80% by the end of the line is huge.

 

Equipment dismounting. While you recoup some of the losses in selling equipment attached to the tank, a player who doesn't spend gold dismounting equipment will be at a fair deficit by the end of a line compared to someone who does.

 

Gold rounds. If I am being honest, a lot of the problems with the game being P2W in any degree are centered around the use of gold rounds. While yes, they can be obviously bought for gold, it's the silver use which contributes to so many other paid for services offering some degree of P2W. With ammunition that is, in countless cases, a straight upgrade over standard ammunition. With their high cost it means players who have invested in other services are the ones who can make more use of them. And no, I'm not saying that gold rounds make a bad player a good one, but in so many cases, it will make any player better than they would be otherwise.

 

Camo. This is something really quite minor, and even if it could only be bought with gold I doubt people would really care.

 

 

 

Nothing you listed here should be considered P2W!  It is pay to progress "FASTER"!  Anyone can be a unicum with 60% WR and 3k WN8 in tier X.  It is just going to take that player a lot longer to get to tier X without spending money or game currency on any of those points you listed.  This game is PAY TO PROGRESS FASTER, nothing more!

Strike_Witch_Tomoko #28 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:50

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View PostMainerd, on Oct 07 2016 - 07:45, said:

 

Ask Ma to raise your allowance.

 

 

i have my own job thanks.   

but that doesn't mean i want to spend money blindly.

View PostSilentPOH, on Oct 07 2016 - 07:46, said:

 

"gold" rounds really isn't an issue as far as P2W goes, cause every tom, [edited], & harry shoot em all day long for "credits"

 

yes but by paying for prem account and prem tanks.  you get the ability to earn credits easier. and thus gold rounds.

 

and gold rounds tend to be superior to normal rounds.

 

 

and the issue i have with them is, as stated before,     they are slowly becoming a necessity for some tanks rather than a "easier pen"    as for some tanks u need gold to pen..rather than "pen easier"

 

 

 



KatzeWolf #29 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:52

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View PostMaxximusDecimusMeridius, on Oct 08 2016 - 00:49, said:

 

Nothing you listed here should be considered P2W!  It is pay to progress "FASTER"!  Anyone can be a unicum with 60% WR and 3k WN8 in tier X.  It is just going to take that player a lot longer to get to tier X without spending money or game currency on any of those points you listed.  This game is PAY TO PROGRESS FASTER, nothing more!

 

You are missing the point here, yes it can be used to progress faster, but that extra income can be, and is used to buy more premium rounds and equipment that a standard account can't afford or sustain.

Random__Task #30 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:54

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A bad player could buy every premium tank available, use premium time, but camo, but credit and gold packs, buy personal reserves, buy premium consumables, train and retrain crews to 100%, use free XP to increase crew skills, free XP to Tier 10, fire nothing but premium rounds, and it still would not make them a better player or increase their win rate.  

 

This is game is marketed towards 25+ males with disposable income.  Not Dota kiddies with GameStop gift cards.  The model does what it is designed to do very well, and that is generate revenue to incorporate new content that keeps the target demographic interested and expand said playerbase.  The cluelessness regarding business models by some posters here is alarming.

 

Case closed.


Edited by Random__Task, Oct 07 2016 - 15:57.


Kliphie #31 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:54

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WG is still a for-profit business, right? 

Maxx_Rage #32 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:54

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Oct 07 2016 - 14:50, said:

 

i have my own job thanks.  

but that doesn't mean i want to spend money blindly.

 

yes but by paying for prem account and prem tanks.  you get the ability to earn credits easier. and thus gold rounds.

 

and gold rounds tend to be superior to normal rounds.

 

 

and the issue i have with them is, as stated before,     they are slowly becoming a necessity for some tanks rather than a "easier pen"    as for some tanks u need gold to pen..rather than "pen easier"

 

 

 

 

I would never pay gold for these so-called "gold" rounds.  And I think it's very foolish of people who do pay gold, it doesn't make any sense to me.  Now, I will pay credits for the premium rounds on some tanks and use them accordingly.  I also think it's foolish for those people who DON'T use the premium rounds when necessary.  But, to each their own I guess.

KatzeWolf #33 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:56

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View PostRandom__Task, on Oct 08 2016 - 00:54, said:

A bad player could buy every premium tank available, use premium time, but camo, but credit and gold packs, but personal reserves, but premium consumables, train and retrain crews to 100%, use free XP to increase crew skills, free XP to Tier 10, fire nothing but premium rounds, and it still would not make them a better player or increase their win rate.  

 

This is game is marketed towards 25+ males with disposable income.  Not Dota kiddies with GameStop gift cards.  The model does what it is designed to do very well, and that is generate revenue to incorporate new content that keeps the target demographic interested and expand said playerbase.  The cluelessness regarding business models by some posters here is alarming.

 

Case closed.

 

Yet, put a full load of prem rounds in the hands of a good player, and yes, it does help... otherwise you would't use them.
Think about what you just said, if they don't help... ​Why do people use them?

Frog slowly boiling comes to mind...
 

Hellsfog #34 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:57

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View PostSovietMemeBear, on Oct 07 2016 - 08:42, said:

 

Its pay to grind less. Full stop. Nothing more. 

 

 

There are so many sub 50% players who have all the premium tanks, and premium time and buy war chests regularly and fire all gold.  Why aren't these players better? Its because at the end of the day having a premium account, tanks and ammunition wont make a player good or bad. 

Good players win because they are able to carry games when it counts. There are plenty of players in tops clans without premium time etc who are still good. Taugrim is a good example as he made his whole unicum guide series without firing any gold ammo and still was able to get results. 

 

Honestly I think this video and the esports video just show slips bias or lack of understanding who WoT is being marketed to. Comparing WoT to DOTA, LoL, or CSGO is a horrible comparison right off the bat as the market for those three esports games is kids who can only afford 20-30$ yearly on some cases or cosmetics. WoT is positioned to older players with deeper pockets who won't feel bad or need to ask mom and dad for money to skip a tank line, or buy the latest premium 

 

At least thats my 2 cents. 

 

Yep, that is a good point. Whether you agree with sliphantom or not, he's still 100% less anyone than kellerman. 

 

Did anyone notice the massive fail platoon in the first part of the video?  I would pay to have those [edited]banned. 



Maxx_Rage #35 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:57

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View PostKatze_, on Oct 07 2016 - 14:52, said:

 

You are missing the point here, yes it can be used to progress faster, but that extra income can be, and is used to buy more premium rounds and equipment that a standard account can't afford or sustain.

 

A standard account CAN afford them.  You don't have to have a premium account to enter any of the tourneys to win gold.  YOU are missing the point.  A standard account can do all things a premium account can do, it just will take the standard account longer, that is all.  Pay to progress faster is all it comes down to.  Think about it for a second, you'll get it.

Mainerd #36 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:58

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Oct 07 2016 - 08:47, said:

 

heres the thing

they can easily TURN OFF THE SKIN in the menu.   and thus have the ship use a normal skin.

 

aka, the only people seeing the skin are those who like it.  or those to idiotic to listen to devs who have been screaming that "if you don't like it, you can disable it in ONE CLICK"

 

 

 

Oh so now I can pilot the ones I earned without seeing the skins or the voices? A hole event that ignored part of their player base.

Random__Task #37 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:59

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View PostKatze_, on Oct 07 2016 - 14:56, said:

 

Yet, put a full load of prem rounds in the hands of a good player, and yes, it does help... otherwise you would't use them.
Think about what you just said, if they don't help... ​Why do people use them?

Frog slowly boiling comes to mind...
 

 

 

Pethsps you gore nothing but premium rounds.  Most good players do not as it is not required.  So you're argument is invalid.



Ogopogo #38 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:59

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View PostMaxximusDecimusMeridius, on Oct 07 2016 - 15:49, said:

 

Nothing you listed here should be considered P2W!  It is pay to progress "FASTER"!  Anyone can be a unicum with 60% WR and 3k WN8 in tier X.  It is just going to take that player a lot longer to get to tier X without spending money or game currency on any of those points you listed.  This game is PAY TO PROGRESS FASTER, nothing more!

 

It's as Katze_ says. And, just to add on to that, there is the factor of stock grinds too. 

 

But just to go to the extreme. If they introduce a nuclear round for the T92. It deals 100000 damage with a 100m splash range and costs 2 million credits or several thousand gold. Would that be P2W? Of course it would be unbalance, but would it be P2W?

 

View PostRandom__Task, on Oct 07 2016 - 15:54, said:

A bad player could buy every premium tank available, use premium time, but camo, but credit and gold packs, buy personal reserves, buy premium consumables, train and retrain crews to 100%, use free XP to increase crew skills, free XP to Tier 10, fire nothing but premium rounds, and it still would not make them a better player or increase their win rate.  

 

Err... In the situation you've given, yes it would increase their performance. It's not going to make them a unicum by any stretch of the imagination, but it will improve their performance.

 

Block Quote

 A standard account CAN afford them.

 

They may be able to afford them to a limited degree, but many paid for services allow the player to afford them so much more.

 


Edited by Ogopogo, Oct 07 2016 - 16:01.


Maxx_Rage #39 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 15:59

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View PostKatze_, on Oct 07 2016 - 14:56, said:

 

Yet, put a full load of prem rounds in the hands of a good player, and yes, it does help... otherwise you would't use them.
Think about what you just said, if they don't help... ​Why do people use them?

Frog slowly boiling comes to mind...
 

 

A "good" player would not use a full load out of premium rounds.  A good player knows when to shoot premium rounds and when not to.

KatzeWolf #40 Posted Oct 07 2016 - 16:00

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View PostMaxximusDecimusMeridius, on Oct 08 2016 - 00:57, said:

 

A standard account CAN afford them.  You don't have to have a premium account to enter any of the tourneys to win gold.  YOU are missing the point.  A standard account can do all things a premium account can do, it just will take the standard account longer, that is all.  Pay to progress faster is all it comes down to.  Think about it for a second, you'll get it.

 

If a premium account only gave an increase to exp, I would agree with you, but it also increases income...




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