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Sliphantom on WoT P2W?(Pay for Advantage)


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MissNaughtyKitty #681 Posted Nov 01 2016 - 23:55

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View Postdiesel__1, on Nov 01 2016 - 20:52, said:

 

Nothing that NO ONE can't get for free, advantage wise.  I figure it takes skill to win the game, along with the cooperation of MM, RNG, yours AND the enemy team.    Firing only premium shells does not give you a advantage to win.  It may help you out in a one on one situation WITHIN the battle but there are just too many variables that can erode said advantage.

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between "availability" (ie. everyone can use it) versus "accessibility" (how easily they can use it).

 

If you're a reasonably decent player (~50+ WR), you can spam gold rounds every game without much problem.

You can't do that on a normal account; you'll run out of credits very very quickly.

 

Gold rounds are a giant increase in in-game ability; going from a worthless bottom tier tank to being able to penetrate everything you see by clicking 2 instead of 1 is night and day. Not seeing this as an advantage just labelled you as a bad player with poor understanding of game mechanics.



diesel__1 #682 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 01:00

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View PostMissNaughtyKitty, on Nov 01 2016 - 15:55, said:

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between "availability" (ie. everyone can use it) versus "accessibility" (how easily they can use it).

If you're a reasonably decent player (~50+ WR), you can spam gold rounds every game without much problem.

 

See, there you state skill has everything to do with accessibility of items that give you an advantage within the game.  And Mr. Frumpy's biggest concern is "everything being equal". 

 

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You can't do that on a normal account; you'll run out of credits very very quickly.

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure you can fire premium rounds with a normal account and still make money.  SPAMMING premium rounds ISN'T required to beat another tank.  Selectively using premium rounds is smart......not spamming. 

 

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Gold rounds are a giant increase in in-game ability; going from a worthless bottom tier tank to being able to penetrate everything you see by clicking 2 instead of 1 is night and day. Not seeing this as an advantage just labelled you as a bad player with poor understanding of game mechanics.

 

 

All I see is a poor player using something available to everyone (yes, I'm sticking with that) to try a beat a better player or tank.  But that STILL will not buy him a win in the game.



Nunya_000 #683 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 01:00

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View PostMissNaughtyKitty, on Nov 01 2016 - 14:55, said:

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between "availability" (ie. everyone can use it) versus "accessibility" (how easily they can use it).

 

If you're a reasonably decent player (~50+ WR), you can spam gold rounds every game without much problem.

You can't do that on a normal account; you'll run out of credits very very quickly.

 

Gold rounds are a giant increase in in-game ability; going from a worthless bottom tier tank to being able to penetrate everything you see by clicking 2 instead of 1 is night and day. Not seeing this as an advantage just labelled you as a bad player with poor understanding of game mechanics.

 

A player could spend every dime that they have on this game and fire 100% premium rounds, but if they are not a good player or do not know where to shoot specific tanks, it would not necessarily help them win more....or even give them an advantage.

 

Sure, premium rounds are an advantage....and so is upgrading your modules on your tank.  Yes, having a fully upgraded tank has the advantage over the same tank that is not upgraded....and a player that can earn more credits through premium tanks/time can upgrade faster.  However, that does not mean they will win more or even be up against tanks that they might have an advantage over.

 

Everybody seems to have their own definition of Pay2Win.  Here is how the urban dictionary defines it:

 

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Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

 

Yes, someone spending money can improve tanks at a faster rate or fire premium rounds more, but it does not make the game largely unbalanced....and skill can overcome what unbalance there is.  

 

What some players call pay2win is just part of the game design so that they can offer it to all for free and still stay in business.  If premium rounds are P2W, there I can not think of a single on-line game that is not P2W.

 



Redshirt4Life #684 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 01:37

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View PostMissNaughtyKitty, on Nov 01 2016 - 23:55, said:

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between "availability" (ie. everyone can use it) versus "accessibility" (how easily they can use it).

 

If you're a reasonably decent player (~50+ WR), you can spam gold rounds every game without much problem.

You can't do that on a normal account; you'll run out of credits very very quickly.

 

Gold rounds are a giant increase in in-game ability; going from a worthless bottom tier tank to being able to penetrate everything you see by clicking 2 instead of 1 is night and day. Not seeing this as an advantage just labelled you as a bad player with poor understanding of game mechanics.

 

All someone has to do is play a good money maker tank. For me, the 28.01 makes me plenty of credits, and running 'gold' on that would be a terrible idea. Then I can switch to my other tanks and fire gold liberally, though I only shoot all gold for tanks with stock guns, because there is no advantage to be had shooting gold at most tanks.
I made 3 million in a few days just because I finished the Stug IV mission line. Credits are easy to make.

Edited by Redshirt4Life, Nov 02 2016 - 01:38.


frumpylumps #685 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 14:22

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View PostMissNaughtyKitty, on Nov 01 2016 - 23:55, said:

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between "availability" (ie. everyone can use it) versus "accessibility" (how easily they can use it).

 

If you're a reasonably decent player (~50+ WR), you can spam gold rounds every game without much problem.

You can't do that on a normal account; you'll run out of credits very very quickly.

 

Gold rounds are a giant increase in in-game ability; going from a worthless bottom tier tank to being able to penetrate everything you see by clicking 2 instead of 1 is night and day. Not seeing this as an advantage just labelled you as a bad player with poor understanding of game mechanics.

 

Well said.  True, only paying players are able to spam gold ammo every single game, thus potentially never having to use the inferior standard ammo that free players must use, and never have to worry about getting screwed on low penetration rolls on shots that would have otherwise penetrated every time with gold ammo, giving them a huge advantage.  This is especially true of newer players who don't yet know the armor values of the enemy tanks they are facing..  In this way premium ammo is a pure pay2win mechanic.

 

And you are absolutely correct on your last sentence as well. I couldn't agree more.   This is a typical p2w denier who is incapable of acting like an adult and admitting when they are wrong.  Somehow they refuse to admit they are wrong, even when all the facts, data and common sense is stacked against them.  #1 win rate on cash exclusive, highly-competitive tanks means nothing to the nonsensical p2w-deniers.  

 

And that particular p2w-denier you are referring to, who is trying to tell everyone they are wrong and that we should use his personal, literal definition of p2w instead(of which no games even exist), and the most vocal of the p2w-deniers in the thread, has a hilariously gigantic Wn8 of 750. F-ing classic! :teethhappy::D:teethhappy::rolleyes:

 

 

 

 


Edited by frumpylumps, Nov 02 2016 - 14:43.


WarStore #686 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 14:44

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Nov 02 2016 - 13:22, said:

 

Well said.  True, only paying players are able to spam gold ammo every single game, thus potentially never having to use the inferior standard ammo that free players must use, and never have to worry about getting screwed on low penetration rolls on shots that would have otherwise penetrated every time with gold ammo, giving them a huge advantage.  This is especially true of newer players who don't yet know the armor values of the enemy tanks they are facing..  In this way premium ammo is a pure pay2win mechanic.

 

And you are absolutely correct on your last sentence as well. I couldn't agree more.   This is your typical p2w denier is incapable of acting like an adult and admitting when they are wrong.  Somehow they refuse to admit they are wrong, even when all the facts, data and common sense is stacked against them.  #1 win rate on cash exclusive tanks means nothing to the nonsensical p2w-deniers.

 

And that particular p2w-denier you are referring to, who is trying to tell everyone they are wrong and that we should use his personal definition of p2w instead, and the most vocal of the p2w-deniers in the thread, has a hilariously gigantic Wn8 of 750. :teethhappy::D:teethhappy::rolleyes:

 

 

That is funny. I could spam gold all the time if I wanted to, but I didn't want to risk having my shots bounce off thin plates of armor, when an AP round would most certainly penetrate, or have them absorbed by spaced armor or tracks. I was even watching LemmingRush talking about the other day, trying to remind himself to switch to all AP in his batchat for that same reason. Plus, depending on the tank I was driving, I prayed that the enemies would fire only HEAT at me, so I could have a chance of surviving a hit, compared to the always inferior AP which would penetrate 100% of the time.

But then again, some people understand the mechanics of the game and why premium rounds are a bad choice in many situations....something you wouldn't know.



frumpylumps #687 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 14:48

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View PostWarStore, on Nov 02 2016 - 14:44, said:

That is funny. I could spam gold all the time if I wanted to, but I didn't want to risk having my shots bounce off thin plates of armor, when an AP round would most certainly penetrate, or have them absorbed by spaced armor or tracks. I was even watching LemmingRush talking about the other day, trying to remind himself to switch to all AP in his batchat for that same reason. Plus, depending on the tank I was driving, I prayed that the enemies would fire only HEAT at me, so I could have a chance of surviving a hit, compared to the always inferior AP which would penetrate 100% of the time.

But then again, some people understand the mechanics of the game and why premium rounds are a bad choice in many situations....something you wouldn't know.

 

Your cherry-picked scenarios, in ignorance of the whole, are so pathetic and telling of your weak position.

 

Go on, tell us again how AT-15 is the best tier 8 TD,  you've got this:teethhappy::D:teethhappy:

 

It is really pretty sad how much you have failed in this thread.  Do find something more productive to do than posting nonsense every day in every thread on the forums of a video game you haven't played for over a year.

 

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough?


Edited by frumpylumps, Nov 02 2016 - 14:52.


WarStore #688 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 15:00

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Nov 02 2016 - 13:48, said:

 

Your cherry-picked scenarios, in ignorance of the whole, are so pathetic and telling of your weak position.

 

Go on, tell us again how AT-15 is the best tier 8 TD,  you've got this:teethhappy::D:teethhappy:

 

It is really pretty sad how much you have failed in this thread.  Do find something more productive to do than posting nonsense every day in every thread on the forums of a video game you haven't played for over a year.

 

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough?

 

I never said it was the best. I simply showed the actual numbers. The numbers don't care if you don't like them....or if you managed to suck so bad with said tank and is mad at it now.



CV_Rework_is_Fine #689 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 15:28

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Nov 02 2016 - 13:48, said:

 

Your cherry-picked scenarios, in ignorance of the whole, are so pathetic and telling of your weak position.

 

Go on, tell us again how AT-15 is the best tier 8 TD,  you've got this:teethhappy::D:teethhappy:

 

It is really pretty sad how much you have failed in this thread.  Do find something more productive to do than posting nonsense every day in every thread on the forums of a video game you haven't played for over a year.

 

Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough?

 

He isnt the one that said 4 man platoons are pay2win honney bunny.

diesel__1 #690 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 17:33

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Nov 02 2016 - 06:22, said:

 

Well said.  True, only paying players are able to spam gold ammo every single game, thus potentially never having to use the inferior standard ammo that free players must use,

 

 

 

See, there you go again.....   Standard ammo that free players MUST use?  Hello???????   Free players can use premium ammo just like any paying player.  But then, if you agreed to that....your P2W theory goes out the window...doesn't it? ;) 

 

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and never have to worry about getting screwed on low penetration rolls on shots that would have otherwise penetrated every time with gold ammo, giving them a huge advantage. 

 Don't premium rounds still get low penetration rolls?  Don't premium rounds still have to hit the "right" places?  Knowing that gives a player a huge advantage.....oh hang on......SKILL!!! 

 

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This is especially true of newer players who don't yet know the armor values of the enemy tanks they are facing..  In this way premium ammo is a pure pay2win mechanic.

 See above! 

 

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And you are absolutely correct on your last sentence as well. I couldn't agree more.   This is a typical p2w denier who is incapable of acting like an adult and admitting when they are wrong.  Somehow they refuse to admit they are wrong, even when all the facts, data and common sense is stacked against them.  #1 win rate on cash exclusive, highly-competitive tanks means nothing to the nonsensical p2w-deniers.  

 Don't talk about Warstore like that! 

 

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And that particular p2w-denier you are referring to, who is trying to tell everyone they are wrong and that we should use his personal, literal definition of p2w instead(of which no games even exist), and the most vocal of the p2w-deniers in the thread, has a hilariously gigantic Wn8 of 750. F-ing classic! :teethhappy::D:teethhappy::rolleyes:

 First of all, I don't have to tell everyone they are wrong...most of them agree with ME!!  I am only trying to tell YOU you're wrong.  I gave you ....earlier in this thread......MANY examples of those that agree with me.  By the sounds of it, you were afraid to "read" those which is VERY typical of a "denier".  I even provided links of gaming experts that have shown how WoT's has gone away from all the P2W items as WG did not want to be that way.   But then.....you again just make up your own facts.   

 

Oh, and I have to ask you.  What does my Wn8 (which I am extremely proud of...ME being the only one I need to impress...so bash them all you want) have to do with understanding P2W?   You are a prime example of how one's Wn8 doesn't help understand anything!! ;)  You yourself say it's just common sense.  So, I'm using mine!  

 

You're turn!

 

 

 



_cthulhu_ #691 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 18:17

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Nov 03 2016 - 01:22, said:

 

Well said.  True, only paying players are able to spam gold ammo every single game, - Not True

 

thus potentially never having to use the inferior standard ammo that free players must use, - Not True

 

and never have to worry about getting screwed on low penetration rolls on shots that would have otherwise penetrated every time with gold ammo, - Not True

 

giving them a huge advantage.  - Not True

 

This is especially true of newer players who don't yet know the armor values of the enemy tanks they are facing..  - True

 

In this way premium ammo is a pure pay2win mechanic. - Only in your very limited and misguided definition, the vast majority of players disagree with you

 

And you are absolutely correct on your last sentence as well. I couldn't agree more.   This is a typical p2w denier who is incapable of acting like an adult and admitting when they are wrong.  Somehow they refuse to admit they are wrong, even when all the facts, data and common sense is stacked against them.  #1 win rate on cash exclusive, highly-competitive tanks means nothing to the nonsensical p2w-deniers.  - Proven wrong many times

 

And that particular p2w-denier you are referring to, who is trying to tell everyone they are wrong and that we should use his personal, literal definition of p2w instead(of which no games even exist), and

 

the most vocal of the p2w-deniers in the thread, has a hilariously gigantic Wn8 of 750. F-ing classic! :teethhappy::D:teethhappy::rolleyes: - The person you are trying to ridicule is the proof your argument is incorrect

 

Your arguments start with assumptions that are not valid.

 

I am not sure why you need to continue this discussion when it has obviously failed, no one believes you, even if they did, what would do then?

 

Maybe the mods will lock this thread and bury for us.



_cthulhu_ #692 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 18:19

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View PostWarStore, on Nov 03 2016 - 01:44, said:

That is funny. I could spam gold all the time if I wanted to, but I didn't want to risk having my shots bounce off thin plates of armor, when an AP round would most certainly penetrate, or have them absorbed by spaced armor or tracks. I was even watching LemmingRush talking about the other day, trying to remind himself to switch to all AP in his batchat for that same reason. Plus, depending on the tank I was driving, I prayed that the enemies would fire only HEAT at me, so I could have a chance of surviving a hit, compared to the always inferior AP which would penetrate 100% of the time.

But then again, some people understand the mechanics of the game and why premium rounds are a bad choice in many situations....something you wouldn't know.

 

Nothing is funnier for me than when a deathstar hits me with HESH in the tracks and does no damage... My first thought is - lol! sucker!

Savage__Apples #693 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 18:28

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View Post_cthulhu_, on Nov 02 2016 - 09:19, said:

 

Nothing is funnier for me than when a deathstar hits me with HESH in the tracks and does no damage... My first thought is - lol! sucker!

 

 

I laugh like hell when I get hit with AP and it bounces then the player switches to premium rounds and after bouncing several of those then they switch to HE. Premium rounds have never been the magic "I WIN"  button and it is sad that players like frumpylumps think that it is.



diesel__1 #694 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 18:39

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View Post_cthulhu_, on Nov 02 2016 - 10:19, said:

 

Nothing is funnier for me than when a deathstar hits me with HESH in the tracks and does no damage... My first thought is - lol! sucker!

 

View PostSavage__Apples, on Nov 02 2016 - 10:28, said:

 

 

I laugh like hell when I get hit with AP and it bounces then the player switches to premium rounds and after bouncing several of those then they switch to HE. Premium rounds have never been the magic "I WIN"  button and it is sad that players like frumpylumps think that it is.

 

See, this is the thing.  No matter the shells used by the opposition,  there is still a way to counter those shells whether they are premium or standard for that tank.  Premium ammo is only effective IF the enemy player is dumber than the one shooting the premium shell. This goes against our favorite poster here ...saying "all things being equal".   There is NO instance in a battle of WoT's that is "equal". 

_cthulhu_ #695 Posted Nov 02 2016 - 19:21

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I just saw this - it discusses the pay options for WoT

 

http://na.wot-economics.com/en/



frumpylumps #696 Posted Nov 04 2016 - 16:47

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View PostAppleTank8, on Nov 01 2016 - 23:06, said:

Eh, some tanks do have a massive boost in carrying potential due to ridiculous Prem rounds. A tank with 100mm pen in Tier X has to put in a lot more effort than one with 300. That's why the T54 is so infamous. if the 59-16 had 200mm pen rounds, it would be so over powered.

 

Though, if you suck, you're going to die no matter how much cash you dump.

 

Very true, though your last sentence demonstrates that you are missing the point.  You seem to think Pay2win means you are guaranteed to win.  No, it never has.   It isn't really fair to say that pay2win isn't relevant to people who don't understand the game, that is a erroneous and nonsensical comparison.  As a matter of fact, throwing money at the game and paying to win benefits new players enormously since they don't need to be nearly as familiar with the armor models they will face as free players who will be forced to use inferior ammo, and will bounce many shells off tanks that they would otherwise have penetrated with gold, just learning the game.

 

View PostMissNaughtyKitty, on Nov 01 2016 - 23:55, said:

 

 

If you're a reasonably decent player (~50+ WR), you can spam gold rounds every game without much problem.

You can't do that on a normal account; you'll run out of credits very very quickly.

 

Gold rounds are a giant increase in in-game ability;

 

 

Just wanted to highlight this quote from a unicum player about a dozen times better than any of you p2w deniers, since you hilarious 750 wn8 kids missed it.

 

Indeed, due to the cash-only ability to use food and spam gold every single game on every tank, the paying player will huge advantage and better performance because of money, not skill.  Those advantages translate to more wins, effectively being pay-to-win. 

 

How do p2w deniers explain the enormous advantages paying player have in being able to spam gold ammo every single game, especially new players who aren't familiar with the armor models of all the tanks and must start out with inferior crews and without the expensive equipment that only paying players can buy?


Edited by frumpylumps, Nov 04 2016 - 17:08.


diesel__1 #697 Posted Nov 04 2016 - 17:16

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View PostAppleTank8, on Nov 01 2016 - 15:06, said:

Though, if you suck, you're going to die no matter how much cash you dump.

 

 

Love this line!  And of course......with my 750 Wn8...I fully agree!

 

You see, someone on here doesn't take into account (as he is moving away from his "all things being equal"idea) is the fact a player STILL has to know where to be and when, STILL has to realize what his team is doing and adapt, STILL has to know the firing rate of the tank he faces, STILL has to know how his tank can take a hit, STILL has to know SOOOOOOOO many other things before he can utilize what someone here thinks are P2W advantages.  A player, to get a win ALSO needs to have 14 of his own teammates do the right thing........needs the enemy to do the wrong thing.....AND needs MM and RNG to deal properly to his advantage.    There is no such thing as one thing giving a player an advantage........



frumpylumps #698 Posted Nov 04 2016 - 17:34

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View Postdiesel__1, on Nov 04 2016 - 17:16, said:

 

Love this line!  And of course......with my 750 Wn8...I fully agree!

 

There is no such thing as one thing giving a player an advantage........

 

You failed at logic, there.

 

Saying "Though, if you suck, you're going to die", in no way disqualifies the game from its p2w status.   You aren't saying anything when you say that someone who doesn't understand the game can't guarantee a win by paying.  You seem incapable of understanding that when we say  "pay2win", it does not mean you are guaranteed to win,  it never has.

 

If you weren't so shamefully incapable of admitting you are wrong, you might understand that and wouldn't have filled this thread with the nonsensical spam that you have, obviously attempting to troll.

 

Grow up.


Edited by frumpylumps, Nov 04 2016 - 19:32.


diesel__1 #699 Posted Nov 04 2016 - 17:38

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Moderated by Volier_Zcit

Edited by Volier_Zcit, Nov 05 2016 - 02:27.


diesel__1 #700 Posted Nov 04 2016 - 17:44

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Hey frumpy!!!

 

If I, with my lowly 750 Wn8 were to meet you in battle...one on one in Matildas.....who would win? 

 

Some additional caveats though.......

You would have a stock tank with a new crew.....and I would have a fully equipped tank and a one skill crew, one I just bought into and paid for everything.  Who would win?  You can pick the map!  :D






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