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Please enlighten me, "How arty makes the game more Dynamic."


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Mudman24 #21 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 20:43

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View Postfeanval, on Nov 26 2016 - 13:38, said:

​Try cracking turtle with no arty.  

It's hard because it takes vision, tracking, flanking, etc. to do.  Instead of using these maneuvers, arty just negates the turtle by putting a circle over the tank and clicking. 



Red_Ensign #22 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 20:49

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arty DOES punish campers.  but until the campers are spotted, they have to shoot at someone.  annnnnd you happened to be spotted and predictable.  annnnnd here's your post.

Trauglodyte #23 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 22:37

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View PostMudman24, on Nov 26 2016 - 20:30, said:

Just pay attention next time you have a battle with 4-5 arty on each team.  It does not "keep the game moving".  It cause everyone to sit back as far as they can for fear of getting spotted. 

 

When it isn't a stupid MM nightmare (read: 2 SPGs max), it keeps the game moving.  I can't speak for when the game takes a dump and puts together a monstrosity of stupid.

SpitYoYoMafia #24 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 22:43

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Why should the turtle be punished for existing and playing propetly? It's also pennable from the front by 330-340 heat.

 

Notice how no good player makes an excuse to need arty to get something done for them.



ArmoredCorps #25 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 22:43

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View PostShukka, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:12, said:

Not a QQ post, I'm not one to post on the forums very often, but sometimes I feel the urge to ask questions, just wonder peoples opinions on this, because I feel that I can come up with a one to one reason why they don't help the game play at all!

 

I don't know, but here's a picture of a Russian family camping with a pet bear. 



Rides_with_Death #26 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 22:45

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It's so dynamic that they couldn't fit the extra action in to wot blitz

SpitYoYoMafia #27 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 22:45

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Nov 26 2016 - 13:37, said:

 

When it isn't a stupid MM nightmare (read: 2 SPGs max), it keeps the game moving.  I can't speak for when the game takes a dump and puts together a monstrosity of stupid.

 

So you admit to what the class does then say it's still good for the game??? Do you even read what you type? How about getting good instead of relying on a broken mechanic to do crapfor you eh?

Trauglodyte #28 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 23:40

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View Post_Ninjax_, on Nov 26 2016 - 22:45, said:

 

So you admit to what the class does then say it's still good for the game??? Do you even read what you type? How about getting good instead of relying on a broken mechanic to do crapfor you eh?

 

I'm well aware of everything I write because I'm the one that wrote it, moron.  Artillery is great when it keeps playes bottled up.  It is horrid in wide open spaces and/or against fast moving targets.  Furthermore, artillery is better the more there is in a game.  What is so hard to understand about that?  15k battles and you still complain endlessly.  Let's blame it on XVM.  Let's blame it on the MM.  Let's blame it on everything else.  God forbid we take facts into account let alone look at our own game play for the reasons why we get crushed.

Edited by Trauglodyte, Nov 26 2016 - 23:41.


Mudman24 #29 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 23:45

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Nov 26 2016 - 16:40, said:

 

I'm well aware of everything I write because I'm the one that wrote it, moron.  Artillery is great when it keeps playes bottled up.  It is horrid in wide open spaces and/or against fast moving targets.  Furthermore, artillery is better the more there is in a game.  What is so hard to understand about that?  15k battles and you still complain endlessly.  Let's blame it on XVM.  Let's blame it on the MM.  Let's blame it on everything else.  God forbid we take facts into account let alone look at our own game play for the reasons why we get crushed.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.  Does arty "keep the game moving", because here you say it is great when it keeps players "bottled up"? Arty is better the more there is in the game? 



Guest_Heldar_* #30 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 23:46

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It doesnt.  End of story.   Every time i get a match with no arty in it, the battles are aggressive and fluid.  If there is arty, its a coin flip that leads more towards humping rocks, trying to hide or camping.

haxmachine20 #31 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 23:49

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I find arty to be OP in one single way, and that is the fact that it can do damage that can make people cry. a tier 5 arty can one shot every other tier 5, most tier 6 arties can one shot a tier 6 heavy, and it keeps going until you hit tier 10, and even if it can still one shot most tanks. the best way to nerf arty is by making it have less damage OR worse accuracy. I can even say that arty is OP because i am able to do large amounts of damage in tier 6 skirmishes, usually 700 to even 2000+.  I think it is safe to say arty is OP and should be nerfed in some way.

Flarvin #32 Posted Nov 26 2016 - 23:51

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View PostMudman24, on Nov 26 2016 - 14:30, said:

Just pay attention next time you have a battle with 4-5 arty on each team.  It does not "keep the game moving".  It cause everyone to sit back as far as they can for fear of getting spotted. 

 

Last match I had 4+ arty per team, the match played as it usually plays. But I got a Dumitru's medal. Good stuff.

 

In fact most times I notice zero difference between matches with lots of arty, some arty or no arty. Most pub players I see play the exact same regardless what the team match ups are. 



I_QQ_4_U #33 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 00:32

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View Posthaxmachine20, on Nov 26 2016 - 23:49, said:

 the best way to nerf arty is by making it have less damage OR worse accuracy.

 

  If the accuracy goes down any more than it is you might as well just remove them. I've literally stuck my barrel in someones ear and missed.

Rin_ #34 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 00:55

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Nov 26 2016 - 19:53, said:

 

I would argue against what you're saying.  Artillery keeps the game moving, period.  If you sit and camp in a spot, you're going to get rained down upon.  That is keeping it dynamic.  The problem, though, is that the map design is so piss poor that it bottenecks everyone into small pockets, thus making artillery more detrimental to opponents than it should.  People hate on artillery because of what it can do but, in doing so, they always, either purposely or simply through not thinking about it, dismiss the RNG and the fact that the maps are designed to make artillery more powerful.  If you had a map that was completely flat, artillery would suck and TDs would reign supreme.  So, by adding corridors that push people into specific spots, you're bringing opponents into the spider's web.

Good thing I sit behind a rock the entire game when there's arty. By never moving from one spot where I dry hump a wall, I have 0 risk of being shot. Glad to know that's being dynamic.



Trauglodyte #35 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 01:03

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View PostMudman24, on Nov 26 2016 - 23:45, said:

You seem to be contradicting yourself.  Does arty "keep the game moving", because here you say it is great when it keeps players "bottled up"? Arty is better the more there is in the game? 

 

OK, I'll reiterate to make it easier - I'm open to taking responsibility for not writing this out clearly, if that is the case:

 

- Wide open maps (and city maps) make artillery horrible; maps with a lot of funnels make artillery ungodly

- Artillery forces players to move because, if you stop and camp, you're apt to get bombed; maps with corridors force players to slow down and funnel through, hence making artillery ungodly in these instances

 

The power of artillery grows the slower people play.  If you've ever played artillery and tried to put damage down upon a fast moving Light or quick Medium when they're juking all around, it is not only incredibly frustrating but damned near impossible to be viable.  That is without the horrible RNG that comes baked into SPGs.  The more that you move, the less likely that you are to get torched by an SPG.

 

Artillery only forces dynamic game play on maps that allow it.  Case in point, Steppes.  You've got one area that is horrible for dynamic play (the southwest corner) and a little bit on the northeast corner, but the rest is pretty wide open with lot of different spots to attack from.  Red Shire is very similar in that you've got one horrible area for dynamic play (far eastern border at the midway point), a little bit of it at the ruins on the western border, with the rest of the map being largely artillery free thanks to a lot of different elevation points on the topography.  WarGaming has created maps that cater to certain areas for certain play types.  When people funnel into a spot like Eastern Red Shire, SPG players just sit back and start to drool because, if you've got a good team of Heavies, they're going to keep the opposing team pinned down while you just rain shells all over the place.  This is where artillery shines because it falls into the breadbasket of artillery.

 

The rest of the map can play very differently but the threat of artillery still forces you to move.  If you're spotted and you're in the open, it doesn't matter where you are, largely, an artillery piece can get to you.  That is the what artillery does to the player base, me included.  When I'm playing my SPG, I pop a shot and then I move because I don't want to die to counter-battery.  I can take the chance that my opponents aren't looking or are bad but why take that chance when I've got 33 seconds until my next shell loads?  I've been in a ton of games where opposing TDs get spotted and don't ever move.  They're the worst offenders because they think that they don't have to move - personally, I don't get it but they're bad about it.


The truth is that WoT game play isn't as fluid as it should be and so very much of that is on map design.  Artillery forces you to move, unless you're willing to accept the consequences.  No other tank in the game does that.  Is that not the definition of the design and the point of this topic?

 

To add some context, I've logged all of my games played since tier 6.  They are as follows:


Hummel:  average of 5 shots per game, 37% chance for direct hits, 0.7% chance of 1-shot kills

GW Panther:  average of 4 shots per game, 38% chance for direct hits, 1.3% chance of 1-shot kills (26 of my 30 1-shot kills were enemy SPGs)

GW Tiger P:  average of 3 shots per game, 36% chance for direct hits, 0.8% chance of 1-shot kills (5 of my 6 kills were enemy SPGs; feel bad for that Patriot that I kersploded)

 

I've been logging the maps played, too, on my GW Tiger P - didn't do that on the others but really wish that I had.  Some things of note:

 

I have 8 games played on Erlinberg with an average of about 4 shots per game w/ 1100 damage per game and a 54% chance to hit.

I have 7 games played on Sigfried Line with an average of 2 shots per game w/ 315 damage per game and a 34% chance to hit.

I have 5 games played on Karelia with an average of 2 shots per game w/ 526 damage per game and a 31% chance to hit.

I have 5 games played on Sand River with an average of 5 shots per game w/ 748 damage per game and a 22% chance to hit.

 

89 games played is a horribly small sample size and 5-8 games is largely nothing.  But, what I see here is that Erlinberg is a map with 2 funnel points where people always go to and always camp.  This map elevates my to-hit and boosts my damage per game.  A map like Sand River, where I have the same average of numbers fired, my chance to-hit drops because the map is flatter with decent cover and with lots of different areas from which you can engage.  The greater the area around which you can move, the less likely you are to get blown up by arty.  Yet, you'r still forced to move.

 

In summary, artillery forces you to move but bad map design negates that by trapping you.  Wide open maps, where you're not funneled, cramped, or forced to camp, allows you to minimize the power of artillery.  Yet, you still have to move.  Games without artillery are slower and more methodical.  Does that make more sense? 


Edited by Trauglodyte, Nov 27 2016 - 01:05.


SpitYoYoMafia #36 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 01:13

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And more numbers showing direct hits and not splashes. Also does not help your case when said players that you are talking to are better at playing arty than you are. . .

Beorn_of_the_NorthernSea #37 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 01:33

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View Post_Ninjax_, on Nov 26 2016 - 13:43, said:

Why should the turtle be punished for existing and playing propetly? It's also pennable from the front by 330-340 heat.

 

Notice how no good player makes an excuse to need arty to get something done for them.

 

There is not a single tank in game that can pen that with standard rounds...  Except for the T 92 and the Object 261, which are arty.  I heard that "good players" don't need to use gold rounds too.  So, which is it?  As a sub-par player who apparently only points and clicks, I would like to learn...

 

And, why should the artillery be maligned for existing and playing as designed?  If it is not playing as intended, how is that the player-base's fault?

 

It seems to me that the venom and vitriol should be aimed at the developers and programmers, not the players.

 

But, then again, I am barely above a scrub-potato-tomato-pleb, if indeed I am at all...

 

~B



Guest_Heldar_* #38 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 01:58

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View PostBeornotns, on Nov 26 2016 - 18:33, said:

 

There is not a single tank in game that can pen that with standard rounds...  Except for the T 92 and the Object 261, which are arty.  I heard that "good players" don't need to use gold rounds too.  So, which is it?  As a sub-par player who apparently only points and clicks, I would like to learn...

 

And, why should the artillery be maligned for existing and playing as designed?  If it is not playing as intended, how is that the player-base's fault?

 

It seems to me that the venom and vitriol should be aimed at the developers and programmers, not the players.

 

But, then again, I am barely above a scrub-potato-tomato-pleb, if indeed I am at all...

 

~B

 

Wrong.  Every single tier 10 td can pen the doom turtle frontally with standard.  as can most tier 10 heavies.  As can pretty much every tier 8 when aiming at actual weakspots.

Donward #39 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 02:27

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If you've ever been a light tank passively or actively lighting the enemy team as they huddle together in a known choke point, watching round after round from friendly artillery plow into them while you collect that sweet, sweet spotting damage makes this game very dynamic and entertaining.

The only pity is that with All Chat gone, we can no longer mock the enemy team and drink their tears as they whine about being punished for getting out skilled.

zed2204 #40 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 09:25

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View PostDonward, on Nov 27 2016 - 02:27, said:

If you've ever been a light tank passively or actively lighting the enemy team as they huddle together in a known choke point, watching round after round from friendly artillery plow into them while you collect that sweet, sweet spotting damage makes this game very dynamic and entertaining.

The only pity is that with All Chat gone, we can no longer mock the enemy team and drink their tears as they whine about being punished for getting out skilled.

Where is that choke point that LTs have to spot, it is usually your spearhead spotting the enemy one and both teams arty doing the same 

Like children watching men fight from the top a tree and throwing rocks at them






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