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Please enlighten me, "How arty makes the game more Dynamic."


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Bogart1943 #41 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 14:43

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I don't know about dynamic, but it's the best way I've found to ruin a T-22 owners day yet.

Shukka #42 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 21:41

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Nov 26 2016 - 13:53, said:

 

I would argue against what you're saying.  Artillery keeps the game moving, period.  If you sit and camp in a spot, you're going to get rained down upon.  That is keeping it dynamic.  The problem, though, is that the map design is so piss poor that it bottenecks everyone into small pockets, thus making artillery more detrimental to opponents than it should.  People hate on artillery because of what it can do but, in doing so, they always, either purposely or simply through not thinking about it, dismiss the RNG and the fact that the maps are designed to make artillery more powerful.  If you had a map that was completely flat, artillery would suck and TDs would reign supreme.  So, by adding corridors that push people into specific spots, you're bringing opponents into the spider's web.

 

​I will argue against this about keeping the game moving. The time limit keeps the game moving, you only have 15 minutes to win/lose the match. That is the ultimate motivation for the game to move forward. Regardless if someone sits and camps there is still only 15 minutes of game play time. If you want a faster game, ask WG to put in a Sudden Death Match type game play where there is only 5-7.5 mins on the clock want to talk about keeping things moving in a match that would.

Cinphul #43 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 22:35

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View PostShukka, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:12, said:

Not a QQ post, I'm not one to post on the forums very often, but sometimes I feel the urge to ask questions, just wonder peoples opinions on this, because I feel that I can come up with a one to one reason why they don't help the game play at all!

 

Arty is designed to prevent players from abusing dominant defensive positions.  That you don't see these positions being abused is a testament to arty's positive impact on the game, but it's unfortunately difficult for many people to comprehend a prevented negative event.

 

View PostRin_, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:18, said:

It fails miserably at the stated goal of promoting dynamic gameplay. It's great at being a super OP TD. That's sort of the backbone of the argument for removing or changing it.

 

You are partially wrong on the first count - the only reason arty fails to force people out of defensive positions is due to the power creep of non-arty vehicles via accuracy and spotting ranges increases, and the ease access to premium rounds that pen so easily.  These buffs have made it far to dangerous for even the heaviest tanks to do anything but hide and play peek-a-boom.  Fix that, and arty will again fulfill it's roll as intended.

 

You are completely wrong on the second count - arty has 30+ second reload and terrible accuracy, that hardly makes it super, and all relevant stats show it absolutely is not OP.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:19, said:

It does not and the company themselves have already admitted this year's ago.

 

This is simply a lie.

 

View PostThrain_Ironsword, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:49, said:

Because other tanks can wreck you just like arty can, that's why they camp.  Sure, arty can shoot over things, but the trade off is their horrible mobility.  Arty is not really an issue, you get blasted out of the blue by other tanks just the same... people just want something to blame things on and complain about.

 

The dynamic part is just more variety... different situations, tactics, vehicles, etc.  Some matches you will have like 4 arty on each team and everyone will have to play differently.  Different things to do... defend your arty or try to sneak in and take out the enemy arty.  Sometimes it works out to your advantage and sometimes it doesn't.  I like the variety, personally, and I don't play much arty at all. 

 

Correct.

 

View PostMeows_o7o7, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:55, said:

It doesn't, in cw it works the way it should, it helps dig out tanks out of strong positions so that your team has an easier time. But in randoms, on a map like prok for example arty is forced to shoot what's lit, and unfortunately those who get punished are the ones paying dynamically by trying to get vision.

 

This is silly - everyone shoots the tanks getting lights, and the arty, with a 15 second aim time, and round flight time measured in seconds, is the least likely to hit their target. 

 

View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Nov 26 2016 - 14:23, said:

 I die maybe 10% of the time to arty, get rid of everything else.

 

QFT

 

View PostMudman24, on Nov 26 2016 - 14:30, said:

Just pay attention next time you have a battle with 4-5 arty on each team.  It does not "keep the game moving".  It cause everyone to sit back as far as they can for fear of getting spotted. 

 

I am in battles with 4-5 arty on each time maybe once every 50 games, but great arguing from the extreme fallacy.



Cinphul #44 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 22:40

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View PostMudman24, on Nov 26 2016 - 14:43, said:

It's hard because it takes vision, tracking, flanking, etc. to do.  Instead of using these maneuvers, arty just negates the turtle by putting a circle over the tank and clicking. 

 

Throwing random words at your enemy will not crack their turtle.  Nice try though.

 

View Post_Ninjax_, on Nov 26 2016 - 16:43, said:

Why should the turtle be punished for existing and playing propetly? It's also pennable from the front by 330-340 heat.

 

Notice how no good player makes an excuse to need arty to get something done for them.

 

Premium rounds you suggest using are a part of the actual problem.  And I notice that even the very best clans bring arty to matches, which invalidates your claim.

 

View PostHeldar, on Nov 26 2016 - 17:46, said:

It doesnt.  End of story.   Every time i get a match with no arty in it, the battles are aggressive and fluid.  If there is arty, its a coin flip that leads more towards humping rocks, trying to hide or camping.

 

This is simply a lie.

 

View PostRin_, on Nov 26 2016 - 18:55, said:

Good thing I sit behind a rock the entire game when there's arty. By never moving from one spot where I dry hump a wall, I have 0 risk of being shot. Glad to know that's being dynamic.

 

I don't believe you.



Cinphul #45 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 22:44

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View PostShukka, on Nov 27 2016 - 15:41, said:

​I will argue against this about keeping the game moving. The time limit keeps the game moving, you only have 15 minutes to win/lose the match. That is the ultimate motivation for the game to move forward. Regardless if someone sits and camps there is still only 15 minutes of game play time. If you want a faster game, ask WG to put in a Sudden Death Match type game play where there is only 5-7.5 mins on the clock want to talk about keeping things moving in a match that would.

 

I think a bigger factor is impatience.  Some people in this slow paced shooter can't even sit still for 30 seconds, much less 15 minutes.

Herr_Klug #46 Posted Nov 27 2016 - 23:09

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I think the real mistake was when they kept adding arty tiers. When I started in closed beta arty went to tier 5. They then added 6 & 7 and eventually 8. Then they figured since they brought TD's and Med's up to tier 10 they might as well do it for Arty as well. If they left it at tier 7 (or even 5 for that matter) would we really be having all these threads? Yes, because people used to complain about being perma tracked back in the day and Hummels driving around shotgunning people in the face.

awildseaking #47 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 07:44

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It's dynamic in the sense that it is inconsistent. Sometimes spgs lock down areas and encourage camping. Other times, they deny camping spots and force people to move. It would probably work a lot better if matchmaking had more restrictive rules about how many of each tank can be on a team. Then there are some special spgs like burt who can scout and whatnot. I've found that tank destroyers take the place of spgs when there are none. They just camp long lines of sight and punish you for poking your head out.



Guido1212 #48 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 15:14

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It's a trash game mechanic.

Random damage from the red line in a PvP game with no threat of retaliation is terrible game design.

I_QQ_4_U #49 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 16:47

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 28 2016 - 15:14, said:

It's a trash game mechanic.

Random damage from the red line in a PvP game with no threat of retaliation is terrible game design.

 

 

 This has got to be one of the dumbest examples of why it's a bad thing, how much retaliation can you get against someone sniping you every few seconds from behind a bush that you can't see or know exactly where it's coming from?  All this sounds like is whining from people too dumb to think of doing anything other than bash each other over the head with a stick in every fight.

Guido1212 #50 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 18:04

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Nov 28 2016 - 15:47, said:

 

 

 This has got to be one of the dumbest examples of why it's a bad thing, how much retaliation can you get against someone sniping you every few seconds from behind a bush that you can't see or know exactly where it's coming from?  All this sounds like is whining from people too dumb to think of doing anything other than bash each other over the head with a stick in every fight.

Excellent question.

 

The answer is you maneuver and spot to get plenty of retaliation.  In fact, when you get enough skill and knowledge you can avoid many of those situations or at the least minimize them.  The bush camper has to deal with LOS and possible spotting (being lit).  An arty player is not effectively threatened until very late game if ever.



I_QQ_4_U #51 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 18:11

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 28 2016 - 18:04, said:

Excellent question.

 

The answer is you maneuver and spot to get plenty of retaliation.  In fact, when you get enough skill and knowledge you can avoid many of those situations or at the least minimize them.  The bush camper has to deal with LOS and possible spotting (being lit).  An arty player is not effectively threatened until very late game if ever.

 

And that's the same answer to artillery except artillery has a horrible chance to hit anything compared to direct fire, even with stationary targets. I'd love to see everything have the RNG rolls artillery has, matches would have to last half an hour because nobody would hit each other. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has played it thinks it's somehow a problem considering the vast majority of the maps nerf it already.

shaolinsarge #52 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 18:18

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Simply, spotted and don't move... dead.
Imagine a T10 match with and MAUS angled and another tank trying shot. At starts i hated a lot arty; today less... Arty are derp :trollface:

Guido1212 #53 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 18:18

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Nov 28 2016 - 17:11, said:

 

And that's the same answer to artillery except artillery has a horrible chance to hit anything compared to direct fire, even with stationary targets. I'd love to see everything have the RNG rolls artillery has, matches would have to last half an hour because nobody would hit each other. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has played it thinks it's somehow a problem considering the vast majority of the maps nerf it already.

Except it's not the same answer for the majority of the game.  For the majority of the game the entire map is open to arty fire and they are completely safe.  TDs are not even close to as safe and cannot cover near as much of the map.  The TD argument is simply invalid.



Cinphul #54 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 19:37

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 28 2016 - 12:18, said:

Except it's not the same answer for the majority of the game.  For the majority of the game the entire map is open to arty fire and they are completely safe.  TDs are not even close to as safe and cannot cover near as much of the map.  The TD argument is simply invalid.

 

Your argument only has any validity if you use compartmentalize comparisons, but when it comes to actual game play, your argument makes no sense.  This is because there are typically only 1 to 2 arty in a game, but there are 13 to 14 tanks, and these 13 to 14 tanks are vastly more dangerous both overall and individually due to their far greater numbers, and far better accuracy, rate of fire and mobility.  And more to the point, these 13 to 14 tanks cover far more of the map, far more effectively then the 1 or 2 arty can.  Again, because it needs repeating, it's these 13 to 14 other tanks that are controlling the entire map, not arty.  Arty simply assists, most effectively against slow, predictable targets.  To claim arty, which represents 1 to 2 vehicles in the game, and typically takes 35+ seconds to reload, can shut down dynamic game play, is simply absurd.



I_QQ_4_U #55 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 19:40

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 28 2016 - 18:18, said:

  The TD argument is simply invalid.

 

No it's not and it's not just TD's, it's just different dynamics. I wouldn't say that artillery is underpowered but the game seems to be designed to mitigate it, most of the maps you rarely have a good shot at anything unless you put yourself in extremely bad positions, horrible RNG, long long load and aim times, shell travel time, in most case no armour and slow. Now I have no experience in tier 9 or 10 but judging by the matches I've had artillery usually isn't even in the top 5 for damage(usually TD's and heavies), often near the bottom, and when I have been in the top two or three we usually lose or it's very close. Seems odd for something so overpowered.

Cognitive_Dissonance #56 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 19:50

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on Nov 28 2016 - 11:11, said:

 

And that's the same answer to artillery except artillery has a horrible chance to hit anything compared to direct fire, even with stationary targets. I'd love to see everything have the RNG rolls artillery has, matches would have to last half an hour because nobody would hit each other. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has played it thinks it's somehow a problem considering the vast majority of the maps nerf it already.

 

I have played it.

 

So if artillery is so difficult due to RNG, and according to many others, in constant danger, why then as a class, does it have some of the highest K/D ratios of any tank in the game, especially from tier 6 and up?

 

Answer - because it sits in complete safety dishing out tremendous damage for very little exposure or a requirement for map and terrain awareness that other classes must contend with.

 

I think arty should be in the game, just be harder to play, and have more to deal with than - A.) Drive to spot X, B.) Wait for lit tank, C.) Hope they sit still long enough (or use RNG for moving tank and ridiculous lead) - touch mouse button, D.) start over.

 

One thing I (and others have suggested in the past), is make arty have a deployable recoil spade, meaning a setup/teardown time (much like siege mode, hmmm . . . ). Then arty has to use the same SA that any good player uses for positioning. And they can't run to water when a light catches them unawares. 


Edited by SmirkingGerbil, Nov 28 2016 - 19:51.


Guido1212 #57 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 19:52

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View PostCinphul, on Nov 28 2016 - 18:37, said:

 

Your argument only has any validity if you use compartmentalize comparisons, but when it comes to actual game play, your argument makes no sense.  This is because there are typically only 1 to 2 arty in a game, but there are 13 to 14 tanks, and these 13 to 14 tanks are vastly more dangerous both overall and individually due to their far greater numbers, and far better accuracy, rate of fire and mobility.  And more to the point, these 13 to 14 tanks cover far more of the map, far more effectively then the 1 or 2 arty can.  Again, because it needs repeating, it's these 13 to 14 other tanks that are controlling the entire map, not arty.  Arty simply assists, most effectively against slow, predictable targets.  To claim arty, which represents 1 to 2 vehicles in the game, and typically takes 35+ seconds to reload, can shut down dynamic game play, is simply absurd.

What's absurd is you claiming I said something I did not.

 

I have never said arty shuts down dynamic gameplay.  I said it does nothing to promote it.  

 

More specfically it allows a player to sit in safety on the red line and damage another player without threat to himself and by ignoring most of the gameplay mechanics the other 4 classes must deal with.

 



Cinphul #58 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 20:41

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 28 2016 - 13:52, said:

I have never said arty shuts down dynamic gameplay.  I said it does nothing to promote it.

 

This is two sides of the same coin...  Anyway, you're wrong - arty prevents people from staying in dominant defensive positions the abuse of which can otherwise be detrimental to game flow.

 

Block Quote

More specfically it allows a player to sit in safety on the red line and damage another player without threat to himself and by ignoring most of the gameplay mechanics the other 4 classes must deal with.

 

Yes, and for this ability, arty pays a huge price in reload, accuracy and aim time.



Donward #59 Posted Nov 28 2016 - 21:53

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View PostGuido1212, on Nov 28 2016 - 06:14, said:

It's a trash game mechanic.

Random damage from the red line in a PvP game with no threat of retaliation is terrible game design.

And a trash response from someone who doesn't even understand basic game mechanics.

Can't cope with one-fifth of the vehicle classes? Then uninstall.



Shukka #60 Posted Jan 02 2017 - 23:44

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View PostRayWendy, on Nov 26 2016 - 12:30, said:

Because very few play it right, I'll explain my usage.

There are several choke points on a map where some ridiculously OP tank (or more than one) can hold off several tanks. I didn't figure this out until I got the FV304, but arty can break that choke point. The same works for the one guy camping at the back, doing the same.

All these anti arty whining threads are getting old and pointless. Bunch of whiny "but I'm supposed to win all the time" players.

 

Arty is a broken mechanic in the game that allows players to do large amounts of alpha damage with minimal effort. It is a system so out of touch with the idea of the game you cannot defended nor retaliate against it, when you do try to defend against arty, you camp and this camping creates the period where most players complain that the game is too slow and then players b**** at each other for the camping. Then the game deteriorates from that point. It is one thing to be ammo racked that is a real thing that can happen, but to be one shotted by an arty. Come on really. Artillery did not come into pinpoint firing until the laser targeting and then those are carried be infantry on the front lines. There was no such thing as pin point artillery strikes in WWII, Korean War and Vietnam war, it was called barrage artillery for a reason that is why there was usually a battalion of artillery. 

 

If you want to keep artillery in the game mainly for Tier VI and high, how about this;

 

  1. You create a larger dispersion circle that the arty aims at, and increase the scatter chance of the round to be affected by wind, these rounds are supposed to be arcing and travel slower and are subject to more air resistance than a round shot from a tank.
  2. You lower that mount of damage that artillery do per round considerably like by 50-55% give them faster reload increased by 20-25%, still increase the dispersion circle. 
  3. Just get rid of the broken system, that only promotes unhappy and angry players now blindly attacking each other in game chat or even attacking their own arty on their team.





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