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Capitaine_Triquet #21 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 10:54

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View PostDemonic_Angel_of_Death, on Jan 06 2017 - 17:55, said:

Its Sherman M-50 and Sherman M-51... the tank you're talking about is Sherman FL-10 is not either of those, but a different vehicle...

 

So what, we're going to put in an Israeli tree with 3 Semi-Original Shermans, and some Merkavas... and everything else be clones?

 

The Czechoslovakia line does not have many tanks yet it is still in the tank nation roaster.  The Sherman FL-10 was a French tank developed for export so it should be added in the French line so as it is now for the M4 A1 revalorisé. "M4A4 with FL-10 Turret - M4A4 fitted with the diesel engine of M4A2 and the FL-10 turret of the French AMX-13 light tank." (Post–World War II Sherman tanks : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_Sherman_tanks)

 

Egyptian M4 A4 Sherman with the FL-10 Turret.

 

M4 features and engines

http://imgur.com/J9cNeW2

 

Israel has a complete line of self-propelled guns.  The first were built on the Sherman hull.

 

IDF M-50 self-propelled howitzer.

 

IDF L-33 / Ro'em.

 

IDF Makmat 160 mm.

 

Israel had armored regiment as far back as 1935.

 

Hotchkiss H35 Light Tank (1936)

 

Hotchkiss H39

 

Israeli M5 Stuart (Stuart VI)

 

IDF situation prior to the 1948 conflict.

 

Krupp 75mm field gun

 

Israeli Sherman Krupp

 

Israeli Sherman M4 A1 with the M3 75mm gun

(These saw action during the 1948 independence war: https://idf-armor.blogspot.ca/2008/12/1973-yom-kippur-war-idf-armor-in-combat.html)

 

Israeli Sherman equiped with the M4 105 gun

 

Israeli Sherman M4 equiped with the M1A1 76 gun

 

Israeli Sherman M4 A3

 

M4 (M50 Cummins) Super Sherman

 

M4 A1 "revalorisé" (M51) or Isherman

 

Ordnance shells nightmare

 

In my research, I came across some sources that state that the Israelis have used the M22 Locust and the M3 A1 Stuart.  This post is getting long so I will stop there and make more detailed research.  There is definitely a complete Israeli tank.


Edited by Capitaine_Triquet, Jan 24 2017 - 13:25.


Demonic_Angel_of_Death #22 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 19:03

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View PostCapitaine_Triquet, on Jan 24 2017 - 04:54, said:

The Czechoslovakia line does not have many tanks yet it is still in the tank nation roaster. 

 

That's where you're wrong kiddo, every tank in the Czech line besides the T-34/100 is an original Czech design... the majority of tanks you posted in that wall of text I just snipped  are clones of other nations tanks... It's not the amount of tanks that count, its whether or not they can get to tier 1-10, and have a fair amount of mostly original designs in the process, WG doesn't want another "Chinese Tech Tree"...

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to have Israel as a tree, I would love to have an M-51...

But a few Modified Shermans and 1, maybe 2 Merkava + Captured USSR tanks does not make a line relevant... I doubt WG wants another Chinese Tech Tree Fiasco...

I personally see Italy coming into the game before Israel, yes they don't have many high tier options, but that have more pure originals than Israel...

 

Still want an M-51 though... 


Edited by Demonic_Angel_of_Death, Jan 24 2017 - 19:04.


Capitaine_Triquet #23 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 21:04

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View PostDemonic_Angel_of_Death, on Jan 24 2017 - 13:03, said:

 

That's where you're wrong kiddo, every tank in the Czech line besides the T-34/100 is an original Czech design... the majority of tanks you posted in that wall of text I just snipped  are clones of other nations tanks... It's not the amount of tanks that count, its whether or not they can get to tier 1-10, and have a fair amount of mostly original designs in the process, WG doesn't want another "Chinese Tech Tree"...

 

I'm not saying I wouldn't like to have Israel as a tree, I would love to have an M-51...

But a few Modified Shermans and 1, maybe 2 Merkava + Captured USSR tanks does not make a line relevant... I doubt WG wants another Chinese Tech Tree Fiasco...

I personally see Italy coming into the game before Israel, yes they don't have many high tier options, but that have more pure originals than Israel...

 

Still want an M-51 though... 

 

 

I agree fully with your view.  I didn't take that argument in consideration in my preliminary research.  On the other hand, the Israelis re-engineered all the tanks they have used. As the Sherman M-51 it was in service until 1984.  My research can prove that everything was done with the Sherman hull.  From a disastrous start, it became with each iteration incrementally better and stayed late in service.  For a WWII tank design, this is something worth mentioning.  

 

Between the Merkava tank and the Sherman tanks, there is the various iteration of the Centurion tank, the M-47 Patton tank and the M-60 Patton tanks to consider as well in the Israelis line if there is any.  As of a possible disaster is concerned, a fair amount of the components of an Israeli line are already in the game right now (tank hulls/canon).  Those two tanks are not in the game yet so this would be new features.  I know the Israelis had a tank destroyer line but this also needs to be further researched.

 

All there is left to do is tweaking the engines and armour (if there were armour upgrades done).  There is some new material to be done only for the Sherman Krupp that would need to be added to the game features. The Hotchkiss H35/39 would be also a new feature in the game.  I haven't made any research on the IDF L-33 Ro'em Israeli 155 mm self-propelled howitzer or the Makmat 160mm. make from the M4 Sherman chassis so I can not speculate on these guns.  

 

The interest of an Israeli line is the diversity of tanks ranging from the Hotchkiss, the Shermans, the Pattons, the Centurions up to the Merkava tanks. The Israelis from their humble origin in 1935 with a French tank, passing along the US. Sherman/Patton's line then the British engineered Centurions, Russian captured tanks, the Israelis had summed up a significant and diverse engineering knowledge into tank design to go ahead with the 100% Israeli Merkava tanks.

 

Israel's Fearsomely Frugal Defense Forces Made Good Use of Captured Weapons

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201605031038983697-israel-captured-weapons-use/

 

Others have already started their own work on a Israeli tank line.

 

An Israeli Tech Tree in World of Tanks

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/426870-an-israeli-tech-tree-in-world-of-tanks/

 

I noticed that when the Israelis name a tank it's because it was modified in such way that it has little to do with the original design like the M-51 Isherman.

 

At glance it is a monumental task to make sense of what tanks the Israelis used during various time of peace and conflicts.  If I continue this research I will built Israelis tank lines and time they where used from first commission to retirement.


Edited by Capitaine_Triquet, Jan 24 2017 - 21:47.


Demonic_Angel_of_Death #24 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 21:23

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View PostCapitaine_Triquet, on Jan 24 2017 - 15:04, said:

 

 

I agree fully with your view.  I didn't take that argument in consideration in my preliminary research.  On the other hand, the Israelis re-engineered all the tanks they have used. As the Sherman M-51 it was in service until 1984.  My research can prove that everything was done with the Sherman hull.  From a disastrous start, it became with each iteration incrementally better and stayed late in service.  For a WWII tank design, this is something worth mentioning.  

 

Between the Merkava tank and the Sherman tanks, there is the various iteration of the Centurion tank, the M-47 Patton tank and the M-60 Patton tanks to consider as well in the Israelis line if there is any.  As of a possible disaster is concerned, a fair amount of the components of an Israeli line are already in the game right now (tank hulls/canon).  

 

All there is left to do is tweaking the engines and armour (if there were armour upgrades done).  There is some new material to be done only for the Sherman Krupp that would need to be added to the game features. The Hotchkiss H35/39 would be also a new feature in the game.  I haven't made any research on the IDF L-33 Ro'em Israeli 155 mm self-propelled howitzer or the Makmat 160mm. make from the M4 Sherman chassis so I can not speculate on these guns.  

 

The interest of an Israeli line is the diversity of tanks ranging from the Hotchkiss, the Shermans, the Pattons, the Patton's up to the Merkava tanks. The Israelis from their humble origin in 1935 with a French tank, passing along the US. Sherman/Patton's line then the British engineering the Israelis had summed up a significative engineering knowledge into tank designs to go ahead with the 100% Israeli Merkava tanks.

 

I noticed that when the Israelis name a tank it's because it was modified in such way that it has little to do with the original design like the M-51 Isherman.

 

Like I wont deny that the modified versions are cool, and yeah they are somewhat semi-original... But there are other lines which feature more original tanks.

IF Israel is added, it will most likely be after Italy and/or Hungary...

When WG runs out of fully original trees and has to go back to semi-original trees, Israel will most likely be their first pick...

 

That'll be a long time from now though, at least 3 years given how lately its been one new country a year, and this year itself is dedicated to rebalance rather than new countries...


Edited by Demonic_Angel_of_Death, Jan 24 2017 - 21:24.


Life_In_Black #25 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 22:55

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View PostCapitaine_Triquet, on Jan 24 2017 - 05:54, said:

 

The Czechoslovakia line does not have many tanks yet it is still in the tank nation roaster.  The Sherman FL-10 was a French tank developed for export so it should be added in the French line so as it is now for the M4 A1 revalorisé. "M4A4 with FL-10 Turret - M4A4 fitted with the diesel engine of M4A2 and the FL-10 turret of the French AMX-13 light tank." (Post–World War II Sherman tanks : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_Sherman_tanks)

 

Egyptian M4 A4 Sherman with the FL-10 Turret.

 

M4 features and engines

http://imgur.com/J9cNeW2

 

Israel has a complete line of self-propelled guns.  The first were built on the Sherman hull.

 

IDF M-50 self-propelled howitzer.

 

IDF L-33 / Ro'em.

 

IDF Makmat 160 mm.

 

Israel had armored regiment as far back as 1935.

 

Hotchkiss H35 Light Tank (1936)

 

Hotchkiss H39

 

Israeli M5 Stuart (Stuart VI)

 

IDF situation prior to the 1948 conflict.

 

Krupp 75mm field gun

 

Israeli Sherman Krupp

 

Israeli Sherman M4 A1 with the M3 75mm gun

(These saw action during the 1948 independence war: https://idf-armor.blogspot.ca/2008/12/1973-yom-kippur-war-idf-armor-in-combat.html)

 

Israeli Sherman equiped with the M4 105 gun

 

Israeli Sherman M4 equiped with the M1A1 76 gun

 

Israeli Sherman M4 A3

 

M4 (M50 Cummins) Super Sherman

 

M4 A1 "revalorisé" (M51) or Isherman

 

Ordnance shells nightmare

 

In my research, I came across some sources that state that the Israelis have used the M22 Locust and the M3 A1 Stuart.  This post is getting long so I will stop there and make more detailed research.  There is definitely a complete Israeli tank.

 

View PostCapitaine_Triquet, on Jan 24 2017 - 16:04, said:

 

 

I agree fully with your view.  I didn't take that argument in consideration in my preliminary research.  On the other hand, the Israelis re-engineered all the tanks they have used. As the Sherman M-51 it was in service until 1984.  My research can prove that everything was done with the Sherman hull.  From a disastrous start, it became with each iteration incrementally better and stayed late in service.  For a WWII tank design, this is something worth mentioning.  

 

Between the Merkava tank and the Sherman tanks, there is the various iteration of the Centurion tank, the M-47 Patton tank and the M-60 Patton tanks to consider as well in the Israelis line if there is any.  As of a possible disaster is concerned, a fair amount of the components of an Israeli line are already in the game right now (tank hulls/canon).  Those two tanks are not in the game yet so this would be new features.  I know the Israelis had a tank destroyer line but this also needs to be further researched.

 

All there is left to do is tweaking the engines and armour (if there were armour upgrades done).  There is some new material to be done only for the Sherman Krupp that would need to be added to the game features. The Hotchkiss H35/39 would be also a new feature in the game.  I haven't made any research on the IDF L-33 Ro'em Israeli 155 mm self-propelled howitzer or the Makmat 160mm. make from the M4 Sherman chassis so I can not speculate on these guns.  

 

The interest of an Israeli line is the diversity of tanks ranging from the Hotchkiss, the Shermans, the Pattons, the Centurions up to the Merkava tanks. The Israelis from their humble origin in 1935 with a French tank, passing along the US. Sherman/Patton's line then the British engineered Centurions, Russian captured tanks, the Israelis had summed up a significant and diverse engineering knowledge into tank design to go ahead with the 100% Israeli Merkava tanks.

 

Israel's Fearsomely Frugal Defense Forces Made Good Use of Captured Weapons

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201605031038983697-israel-captured-weapons-use/

 

Others have already started their own work on a Israeli tank line.

 

An Israeli Tech Tree in World of Tanks

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/426870-an-israeli-tech-tree-in-world-of-tanks/

 

I noticed that when the Israelis name a tank it's because it was modified in such way that it has little to do with the original design like the M-51 Isherman.

 

At glance it is a monumental task to make sense of what tanks the Israelis used during various time of peace and conflicts.  If I continue this research I will built Israelis tank lines and time they where used from first commission to retirement.

 

Ok, as you have seen, I have done a comprehensive and still ongoing thread on Israeli tanks. First, Super Sherman only refers to 76mm M1A1 and 76mm M1A2 armed Shermans received from France in the mid 1950s. Israel has never referred to the M-50, or M-51 as Isherman, Super Sherman, or anything else besides M-50 and M-51.

 

Second, Israel has never operated any variant of the M3 or M5 Stuart, and those are solely museum pieces acquired for display only. Much like the Panzer 68, Leopard 1, Chieftain Mk. 3, M3 Lee, M3 Grant, and M551 Sheridan also located at Latrun, none of them were ever used by Israel and were acquired many years later. The M22 Locust was however, pressed into service during the 1948 War for Independence, albeit not in any significant numbers and not for very long.

 

Third, yes, Israel can make a decent tech tree with the exception of the low tiers, including an artillery line, and either two medium lines, or a medium line and a heavy line depending on how Wargaming designates the Merkava variants. The 160mm mortar Makmat M-66 is out, as mortars are not allowed in-game (and before anyone asks, the low tier Soviet "mortar" is actually a rifled howitzer, it's just designated a mortar due to its extremely short barrel length).

 

Fourth, some of those Shermans are mislabeled. That is not an M4 armed with the 75mm Krupp, but is an M4  armed with the 105mm M4 howitzer. And those are not M4A1s armed with the 75mm M3. There technically is no such thing as an M4A1 Revalorisé, Wargaming invented the name. What we have in-game is the second French-built prototype (built not only at Israel's request, but also with Israeli assistance based on requirements Israeli engineers came up with) for the Israeli M-51.

 

Fifth, there is nothing really new about the M4 Krupp, as it was a standard M4 (105), of which 32 were acquired from Italy in 1948. Five of these were rearmed with 75mm M3 cannons and saw combat during the 1948 War, while the remainder were rearmed with 75mm Krupp Model 1911 howitzers acquired from Switzerland for the Israeli artillery corps. These did not see combat. Also, the Hotchkiss H-39 isn't new either, it's currently in the game as a very rare tier 2 German light tank. In fact, some of the Israeli Hotchkiss H-39s, were used by the Germans, see the photos from the Lod airport in 1948, as well as the very Hotchkiss H-39 at Latrun, which has a German hatch and Waffenamt (inspection) stamp.

 

Sixth, the L-33 Ro'em's 155mm Soltam M-68, is actually a Finnish cannon, built under license by Israel, and is based on an earlier Finnish 122mm K-60 cannon that was also trialed on a Sherman chassis in Israel in 1966. The Finnish company of Tampella (who was part of Soltam) was even involved in the M-72 turreted 155mm, which was not only a prototype for the Sholef, but served as a basis for Tampella's own turreted coastal artillery.

 

Seventh, You're leaving off several unique Arab vehicles that could also be included, namely the Syrian/Lebanese Renault R-35 with a modified turret mounting a British 2-pdr cannon, the Egyptian M.13/40 also mounting what appears to be a British 2-pdr cannon, the Egyptian T-34/100 and T-34/122, both of which feature either a 100mm or 122mm mounted in heavily modified T-34/85 turrets, and the Syrian T-34/122, mounting a Soviet 122mm backwards on a T-34/85 chassis to serve as an SPG.

 

Lastly, from what I've been hearing, both Italy and Switzerland will receive tech trees in 2018, and it's unlikely Israel would receive a tech tree before then. If low tiers are a problem, Israel can slot quite nicely into the British tech tree, with the M-50, M-51, Merkava Magach, and Merkava 1 coming off the Firefly and giving the Firefly a proper medium line to finish it off, rather than just the TDs it leads into now. So yes, Israel is pretty well covered already, and I am in contact with Wargaming, so the ball is in their court if they want to make it happen. But like I said, it's not a priority right now, and there aren't unique low tiers, so there is a good chance of it being broken up into premiums or tacked onto another nation. We can only wait and see.



landedkiller #26 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 23:00

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I can see this working if we take a prototype merkerva at tier 10 and focus on variants of tanks from other nations with Israeli guns and not he same guns we are used to.

Life_In_Black #27 Posted Jan 24 2017 - 23:10

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View Postlandedkiller, on Jan 24 2017 - 18:00, said:

I can see this working if we take a prototype merkerva at tier 10 and focus on variants of tanks from other nations with Israeli guns and not he same guns we are used to.

 

Israel mainly used the 105mm L7/M68, so there really isn't any alternative gun. They considered the British rifled 110mm for their M48A3/Magach 3s around 1970 or so, but that never went anywhere, and doesn't provide an alternate gun for anything else. The 105mm D-1508 on the M-51 would have been new, if Wargaming hadn't already wasted the M4A1 Revalorisé as a pointless French premium. And yes, the gun is mislabeled on the Revalorisé, Wargaming did basically no research at all on the vehicle before milking players for money with it, and it took me the better part of a year and going directly to Minsk to finally get the Revalorisé its historical gasoline Continental R-975 radial engine.

 

As for the Merkava 1 at tier 10, see my posts on the first page of this thread as to why the Merkava 1 is perfectly fine as a tier 10. Even the final 1974 Merkava prototypes before it went into production, are not really any different from the Merkava 1.



Capitaine_Triquet #28 Posted Jan 25 2017 - 10:25

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Sherman M4 revised French tank

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/508458-sherman-m4-revised-french-tank/page__fromsearch__1



Life_In_Black #29 Posted Jan 25 2017 - 16:44

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Do you actually read anything that's posted? I will say again, there is no such thing an an M4A1 Revalorisé. The vehicle Wargaming calls the M4A1 Revalorisé, is the second French-built prototype for the Israeli M-51, and should be named M-51 Testbed, M-51 Prototype, M-51 Prototype 2, or some such. It should also be a premium in an Israeli tech tree, not asted pointlessly on France, but this is Wargaming who only seem to want a quick buck.

Capitaine_Triquet #30 Posted Jan 26 2017 - 16:13

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Jan 25 2017 - 10:44, said:

Do you actually read anything that's posted? I will say again, there is no such thing an an M4A1 Revalorisé. The vehicle Wargaming calls the M4A1 Revalorisé, is the second French-built prototype for the Israeli M-51, and should be named M-51 Testbed, M-51 Prototype, M-51 Prototype 2, or some such. It should also be a premium in an Israeli tech tree, not asted pointlessly on France, but this is Wargaming who only seem to want a quick buck.

 

So I guess this tank is... aaaaa M4 M1 Revalorisé.  (maybe with a french keyboard the research is more easy) Yes it was a prototype deeded for export and yes it ended up to be the M51 Isherman.

 

 

M51 Israeli

 

 

 

The suspension of the M51, the engine and other features were modified from the French M4 A1 Revalorisé.

 

There is also the M50 that has the same turret as the Sherman Firefly but with the AMX-13 gun.

 

 

The French also mounted the whole AMX-13 turret on a Sherman hull and sold these to Egypt.

 

 

And yes I do read the replies of the this tread :)


Edited by Capitaine_Triquet, Jan 26 2017 - 16:34.


Life_In_Black #31 Posted Jan 26 2017 - 16:37

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Sigh, you're still just repeating everything that's already been posted as if the forum is completely ignorant. The name Revalorisé was invented by Wargaming, full stop. It's the equivalent of tacking on Modified or Improved onto a tanks name, as indeed any modified Sherman in French would be designated as such. Stop spamming pictures of these Shermans as if you're trying to prove how great your knowledge is, I already pointed out a number of things with your previous posts that you still haven't addressed and yet you keep acting as if your knowledge of Israeli equipment is better than someone who's not only in contact with Wargaming, but has also discovered several new Israeli vehicles, as well as proven Wargaming wrong on the Revalorisé's engine.



Capitaine_Triquet #32 Posted Jan 26 2017 - 19:24

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Jan 26 2017 - 10:37, said:

Sigh, you're still just repeating everything that's already been posted as if the forum is completely ignorant. The name Revalorisé was invented by Wargaming, full stop. It's the equivalent of tacking on Modified or Improved onto a tanks name, as indeed any modified Sherman in French would be designated as such. Stop spamming pictures of these Shermans as if you're trying to prove how great your knowledge is, I already pointed out a number of things with your previous posts that you still haven't addressed and yet you keep acting as if your knowledge of Israeli equipment is better than someone who's not only in contact with Wargaming, but has also discovered several new Israeli vehicles, as well as proven Wargaming wrong on the Revalorisé's engine.

​​

The M4A1 Revalorisé and the names of Israeli Shermans

https://ritastatusreport.blogspot.ca/2015/09/the-m4a1-revalorise-and-names-of.html

 

I am not taking the forum for ignorant.  But from the link above the term "revalorisé" did not came from WOT but from the French who redesigned the tank in question.  At the end of day either you name it M4 "105" or M51 Isherman or M4 A1 "Revalorisé" it is still a redisigned Sherman M4 with super added features.



PrimarchRogalDorn #33 Posted Jan 26 2017 - 20:04

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View PostCapitaine_Triquet, on Jan 26 2017 - 13:24, said:

​​

The M4A1 Revalorisé and the names of Israeli Shermans

https://ritastatusreport.blogspot.ca/2015/09/the-m4a1-revalorise-and-names-of.html

 

I am not taking the forum for ignorant.  But from the link above the term "revalorisé" did not came from WOT but from the French who redesigned the tank in question.  At the end of day either you name it M4 "105" or M51 Isherman or M4 A1 "Revalorisé" it is still a redisigned Sherman M4 with super added features.

 

You do know that LiB wrote that article, correct?

Life_In_Black #34 Posted Jan 26 2017 - 21:00

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View PostCapitaine_Triquet, on Jan 26 2017 - 14:24, said:

​​

The M4A1 Revalorisé and the names of Israeli Shermans

https://ritastatusreport.blogspot.ca/2015/09/the-m4a1-revalorise-and-names-of.html

 

I am not taking the forum for ignorant.  But from the link above the term "revalorisé" did not came from WOT but from the French who redesigned the tank in question.  At the end of day either you name it M4 "105" or M51 Isherman or M4 A1 "Revalorisé" it is still a redisigned Sherman M4 with super added features.

 

And Revalorisé wasn't part of the French name, it was the equivalent of the US designating their Shermans by tacking on things like E8, (W), (105, 76, 75, etc) in order to designate it as different from the base model. Any modified foreign vehicle in French service was so designated, M24 revalorisé, M10 revalorisé, etc. Wargaming took something informal and made it formal. And as was pointed out, I wrote that article.

 

View PostPrimarchRogalDorn, on Jan 26 2017 - 15:04, said:

 

You do know that LiB wrote that article, correct?

 

I would hope so, but given the continuous posting of commonly known stuff as if it's being uncovered for the first time, I highly doubt it.

badperson #35 Posted Feb 12 2017 - 22:10

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View Post_Freddy_, on Jan 06 2017 - 23:57, said:

 

The Israeli M50 (New French 75mm gun armed) and M51 (New French 105mm gun armed) tanks were not called Super Shermans or the often quoted Ishermans.

 

They were and still are called Super Shermans by enthusiasts and historians around the world.  Nobody calling it that cares that it wasn't an official Israeli name.  If someone types "Isherman" I immediately know they are talking about an M50 or M51.  Guess what: neologisms and colloquialisms exist.  Want to hear something even more shocking?  Sometimes these neologisms become popular and become part of the standard lingo.  Everyone who discusses these tanks in the English language know these terms as referring to the M50 and M51.  Deal with it.

Life_In_Black #36 Posted Feb 13 2017 - 07:50

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View Postbadperson, on Feb 12 2017 - 16:10, said:

 

They were and still are called Super Shermans by enthusiasts and historians around the world.  Nobody calling it that cares that it wasn't an official Israeli name.  If someone types "Isherman" I immediately know they are talking about an M50 or M51.  Guess what: neologisms and colloquialisms exist.  Want to hear something even more shocking?  Sometimes these neologisms become popular and become part of the standard lingo.  Everyone who discusses these tanks in the English language know these terms as referring to the M50 and M51.  Deal with it.

 

Deal with it? Why don't you deal with the fact that Super Sherman and Isherman are blatantly made up nonsense because ignorant people were either to dumb or too lazy to do the proper research in the first place. I don't give a good rusty [edited]if that's what they're known as currently because people have been calling them that for years, maybe people should actually do a little bit of research themselves and learn some history instead of buying into alternative facts made up by some greedy author or modeling company.

Capitaine_Triquet #37 Posted Feb 13 2017 - 10:18

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Feb 13 2017 - 01:50, said:

 

Deal with it? Why don't you deal with the fact that Super Sherman and Isherman are blatantly made up nonsense because ignorant people were either to dumb or too lazy to do the proper research in the first place. I don't give a good rusty [edited]if that's what they're known as currently because people have been calling them that for years, maybe people should actually do a little bit of research themselves and learn some history instead of buying into alternative facts made up by some greedy author or modeling company.

 

What you are doing has a name: trolling.  Your reply does not advance the discussion other than attacking personally people that have voiced their opinion.  If you have an opinion other people have also opinions of their own and insulting people because they don't have the same point of view as you is trolling and nothing else.

Edited by Capitaine_Triquet, Feb 13 2017 - 10:20.


landedkiller #38 Posted Feb 14 2017 - 21:12

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Hey life in black made a thread on a prem that could fit in this tech tree if and when it comes in game in the future.

Kenshin2kx #39 Posted Feb 14 2017 - 21:22

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View PostDemonic_Angel_of_Death, on Jan 06 2017 - 12:55, said:

Its Sherman M-50 and Sherman M-51... the tank you're talking about is Sherman FL-10 is not either of those, but a different vehicle...

 

So what, we're going to put in an Israeli tree with 3 Semi-Original Shermans, and some Merkavas... and everything else be clones?

 

The particular problem with the idea of an Isreali tree is that WG would be dealing with an awkward situation of having to integrate an existing tank, but one that is quite possibly highly modified in very effective ways.  This then brings up the situation where WG has to figure out an appropriate tier modification to set it apart from the stock variant existing in the game.  I am guessing it could be done, but it would be a bit complicated in terms of effectively balancing ... what amounts to a hybrid tank retrofitted with newer technologies.

Life_In_Black #40 Posted Feb 14 2017 - 22:48

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Feb 14 2017 - 15:22, said:

 

The particular problem with the idea of an Isreali tree is that WG would be dealing with an awkward situation of having to integrate an existing tank, but one that is quite possibly highly modified in very effective ways.  This then brings up the situation where WG has to figure out an appropriate tier modification to set it apart from the stock variant existing in the game.  I am guessing it could be done, but it would be a bit complicated in terms of effectively balancing ... what amounts to a hybrid tank retrofitted with newer technologies.

 

The problem is that Wargaming has way overbuffed what they're calling the M4A1 Revalorisé, meaning any tech tree M-51 at tier 8 has to be just as good. So things like -10 gun depression, -390 alpha, 200/250 AP/APCR pen, etc. Now, given Wargaming's latest penchant for making premium tanks as good or better than tech tree vehicles, this isn't that big of an issue to be honest. And Wargaming could always give an M-51 a HESH round instead of HE, or perhaps even two different HEAT rounds (the APDS round on the Revalorisé is a Wargaming invention) and a HESH round (which is historical). One additional way of balancing an M-51, would be to increase the top speed to 45km/h, as well as possibly give it an 8V71TA Detroit Diesel engine generating 650hp, as this was not only the engine used by the Achzarit APC, but a variant of this engine was retrofitted into Chilean M-50s and M-51s by Israel. So thankfuly there are options that wouldn't make a tier 8 M-51 overpowered.




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