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9.17.1 Centurion changes.


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Avalon304 #1 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 02:45

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Wargaming... why? Why are you making the wrong changes to the Centurions and FV4202 P? Why are you buffing their speed? Stop it... its not too late to fix the actual problems!

 

The Centurion's have a unique role within the game as second line support tanks that can poke ridgelines, take a shot with their high penetration guns and fall back before their lack of armor becomes an issue. By increasing their speed to 50kph you are removing this role from them and shoehorning them into the "normal" medium role, rather than encouraging players to learn their tanks. Worse still is that even after the buff, anything that can be done in a Centurion will be better done in tanks like the M26 Pershing, M46 Patton KR, Type 61 or M46 Patton. The speed changes are not fixing anything about the tank, it just making them worse versions of tanks that are already better than them anyway.

 

Stop this change before it happens. Fix the actual problems: The DPM and gun handling of the Centurion tanks. While you are already buffing the DPM of both the Mk. 1 and Mk. 7/1 Centurions in the case of the Mk. 7/1 is is an extremely minor buff in a tier where just about every other 105mm armed medium tank has 2300+ DPM.

 

The Type 61, the Mk. 7/1's closest analogue has 2440 DPM, and better gun handling than the post "buff" Centurion, for a loss of 10mm of penetration, 2.4kph speed and .04 base accuracy. And yet, even after the supposed buffs, the Type 61 will be better at the role you are trying to shoehorn the Mk. 7/1 into. Similarly, the Leo PT A is faster, has the same pen the same base accuracy and the same or better gun handling than the Mk. 7/1 and only loses out on 4 degrees of gun depression. Even the PT A (which is a terrible tank) will be better at the role you are shoehorning the Mk. 7/1 into.

 

The Mk. 1 fairs better in the DPM department, but will still be outclassed by tanks like the Pershing, STA-2 or Patton KR. (As a note: Since the Strv 81 is also a Centurion, the same applies to it as well. Doubly so because 12 HP/ton is terrible).

 

The FV4202 (P) is a perfect poster child for how top speed increases dont help these tanks. Youve already increased it to 40kph before this patch, and its still a terrible tank for its role. Now youre trying to shoehorn it into a role that it isnt supposed to fill. And its going to be terrible at it. And you arent even increasing the DPM, which inturn makes it worse than even the "buffed" Mk. 1 Centurion.

 

Speed is not, nor has it ever been, the problem of the Centurion tanks. Their problems have always been:

 

1. Their low DPM for their role.

 

and

 

2. Their terrible gun handling characteristics for their role.

 

Meaningfully improve those 2 things and the tanks will become better. Dont condemn the Centurions to become the same (yet still worse) as every other medium tank. That would be a terrible fate for such beautiful tanks.

 

 

(Also the addition of derp guns to the Type 4 and Type 5 is dumb. But thats a separate issue.).



scyorkie #2 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 03:05

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View PostAvalon304, on Feb 03 2017 - 09:45, said:

The Centurion's have a unique role within the game as second line support tanks that can poke ridgelines, take a shot with their high penetration guns and fall back before their lack of armor becomes an issue. By increasing their speed to 50kph you are removing this role from them and shoehorning them into the "normal" medium role, rather than encouraging players to learn their tanks. Worse still is that even after the buff, anything that can be done in a Centurion will be better done in tanks like the M26 Pershing, M46 Patton KR, Type 61 or M46 Patton. The speed changes are not fixing anything about the tank, it just making them worse versions of tanks that are already better than them anyway.

 

I get that your primary complaints are about DPM and gun handling, but this paragraph makes no sense. Having more speed just means you have more options. You don't "remove their old role" or "shoehorn them into a new role" with these buffs, nor do you make them "worse versions" of other mediums -- not any worse than they currently are at least.

 

Also, the regular tech tree Centurions are getting a DPM buff, no?



Mikosah #3 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 03:13

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When the Centurions used to have turret armor prior to the HD nerf they didn't need high DPM or good handling because they could just sit there and aim while taking the calculated risk of return fire in stride. Without the armor, they now desperately need good aim times and low dispersion penalties or else they have no purpose in live whatsoever.

 

Of course, WG's approach of just making them into normies (reeeeeeeeee!) could work in theory, but as the OP suggests it would take massive buffs to make them compete for the same roles as the mediums that are actually good. It would be so much easier to just buff them back into their old niches instead, but whatever. The one thing that I think WG has trouble understanding is that this concept of high stock pen does not make a great balancing point. When it comes with such crippling drawbacks and anyone else can just hit 22 for more pen, having a good AP shell doesn't mean all that much. Maybe as a credit earning niche, but ammo for the 20 pounder and 105mm L7 is crazy expensive anyway. Besides, thanks to the cancerous gun handling you have to lube these guns up with pudding, which kills the cheapskate niche real quick.



Nudnick #4 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 03:26

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Underwhelming buffs indeed. They should have dropped all three of them two tiers.

Avalon304 #5 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 03:30

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View Postscyorkie, on Feb 02 2017 - 18:05, said:

 

I get that your primary complaints are about DPM and gun handling, but this paragraph makes no sense. Having more speed just means you have more options. You don't "remove their old role" or "shoehorn them into a new role" with these buffs, nor do you make them "worse versions" of other mediums -- not any worse than they currently are at least.

 

Also, the regular tech tree Centurions are getting a DPM buff, no?

 

By giving them more speed, youre expecting them to fill a role they do not currently fill. And youre expecting them to fill a role that, even with this new speed, they will fill poorly as well. The Centurions are not meant to flex around the map and flank targets like normal medium tanks currently do. They will fill this role worse than a Patton KR, Pershing, STA-2, M46 Patton, Type 61 or Leo PTA will be able to. In effect this remove them from their current role, which they are already good at, and shoehorns them into a role that they dont need to be in.

 

When you say "not any worse than they currently are" you are displaying your lack of understanding of the Centurion tanks. If you compare them directly to tanks they currently dont need to compete with, of course they are bad. But thats because youre using them wrong, not because they are just inherently bad. When you play the Centurions in their proper role, they excel in it in ways that a Pershing or Patton will not, just like the Centurions dont when used like a Pershing or Patton. You go from being a unique tank with a unique role to a bad copy of other tanks with a cookie cutter role.

 

Centurion tanks currently reward planning and foresight, in the way the other faster tanks do not. You have to know your tank, know where you can go (which winds up being 98% of normal medium locations anyway) and know when to leave that spot for a new location. Slow tanks punish mistakes in the way that mobile tanks do not. They require you to learn both your tank and the maps faster. Make a mistake in a mobile tank and the most you lose is some health. Make a mistake in a slow tank and you probably die.

 

As for the DPM buffs, yes, both tech tree Centurions are getting DPM buffs. In the case of the Mk. 1 it feels significant enough to matter, but could probably be ever so slightly better. But the Mk. 7/1 buff is so negligible that it really doesnt matter. ~2100 base DPM in a tier where every other 105mm armed tank has atleast 2300 DPM is still bad DPM. The Type 61 is the closest analogue to the Mk. 7/1 and its still strictly better after the "buff", both in its role, and as a tank over all. The same can be said of the Leo PT A. The FV4202 has been left out of the DPM buffs, which makes it just a worse Mk. 1 as even the Strv 81 (a copy of the Mk. 1) in Supertest has the buffed Mk. 1 DPM.

 

In particular the speed "buffs" will result in players who dont understand the Centurion getting themselves in to terrible positions with no way out and then complaining that the tank is still bad (which ironically is what theyre doing now with the speed). Because nothing was really meaningfully addressed, especially in the case of the Mk. 7/1. Speed is not going to help the Centurions.

 

View PostMikosah, on Feb 02 2017 - 18:13, said:

When the Centurions used to have turret armor prior to the HD nerf they didn't need high DPM or good handling because they could just sit there and aim while taking the calculated risk of return fire in stride. Without the armor, they now desperately need good aim times and low dispersion penalties or else they have no purpose in live whatsoever.

 

Of course, WG's approach of just making them into normies (reeeeeeeeee!) could work in theory, but as the OP suggests it would take massive buffs to make them compete for the same roles as the mediums that are actually good. It would be so much easier to just buff them back into their old niches instead, but whatever. The one thing that I think WG has trouble understanding is that this concept of high stock pen does not make a great balancing point. When it comes with such crippling drawbacks and anyone else can just hit 22 for more pen, having a good AP shell doesn't mean all that much. Maybe as a credit earning niche, but ammo for the 20 pounder and 105mm L7 is crazy expensive anyway. Besides, thanks to the cancerous gun handling you have to lube these guns up with pudding, which kills the cheapskate niche real quick.

 

Im not a big fan of returning them to the "Sit there hull down and shoot" style of play. Where they are now is fine, as far as how they play, but they just need handling and DPM buffs to cement that role. You should be able to pull up, poke the ridge, squeeze of an accurate (though perhaps not precise) shot and pull back before your lack turret armor ever becomes a real issue. You can barely do it now, just barely, and more handling would cement the role fully.

 

View PostNudnick, on Feb 02 2017 - 18:26, said:

Underwhelming buffs indeed. They should have dropped all three of them two tiers.

 

They would have to be nerfed way too much for that. Lol.


Edited by Avalon304, Feb 03 2017 - 03:34.


Thrain_Ironsword #6 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 03:38

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Over-analyzed.

Avalon304 #7 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 03:50

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View PostThrain_Ironsword, on Feb 02 2017 - 18:38, said:

Over-analyzed.

 

Mmm... yes that was a well though out and articulated response. Im so glad I got to read it.... </s>

 

153 battles in the 7/1 suggests that you, perhaps, havent analyzed this enough. Ive put 700+ battles into the 7/1 and gotten two marks. Its the one tank I feel confident speaking about in this way. The speed improvement will not help the tank at all.


Edited by Avalon304, Feb 03 2017 - 03:51.


ShookYang #8 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 08:29

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But, isn't getting to the ridge faster to get shots on tanks that are still trying to get into position a good thing?

Avalon304 #9 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 08:35

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View PostShookYang, on Feb 02 2017 - 23:29, said:

But, isn't getting to the ridge faster to get shots on tanks that are still trying to get into position a good thing?

 

Not if you cant land accurate and precise fire on target. Also with the size of the maps in WoT we're talking about half a second or less... which isnt going to affect anything except the most extreme circumstances. The Centurions as they exist on the live server can reach the spots they need to get to in time and they can even reach 98% of "normal" medium positions if they need to. You arent going to beat "normal' mediums to their positions after this "buff", you'll only beat slower tanks (namely heavies and TDs) and you already do that anyway. So what use is the speed if it doesnt actually get you anything?

ShookYang #10 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 08:58

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I'm still on the Cromwell, but I do have the FV4202p and I get the the DPM is low (because of the alpha...it actually has better RoF than Pershing, KR, T-44-100).  But the accuracy is still better on the Mk1 and FV4202 than the other tanks of it's tier.  And also has higher pen, so it has a better chance against Tier 9 and 10 tanks.

 

What, specifically, do you want the accuracy of the gun at?  It seems the pen value + RoF is probably being balanced by the low alpha damage.



Avalon304 #11 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 09:22

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View PostShookYang, on Feb 02 2017 - 23:58, said:

I'm still on the Cromwell, but I do have the FV4202p and I get the the DPM is low (because of the alpha...it actually has better RoF than Pershing, KR, T-44-100).  But the accuracy is still better on the Mk1 and FV4202 than the other tanks of it's tier.  And also has higher pen, so it has a better chance against Tier 9 and 10 tanks.

 

What, specifically, do you want the accuracy of the gun at?  It seems the pen value + RoF is probably being balanced by the low alpha damage.

 

Accuracy isnt the only stat that determines how a gun handles. The base dispersion (the number that represents accuracy in the game) is fine. The aim time is also fine.

 

Go to this link:

 

http://beta.tanks.gg...dien-pz~tvp-vtu

 

When youre at the link, scroll down to the 'Gun Handling' and find the 3 fields that say '... moving', '... tank traverse', and '... turret traverse'. Those values govern how much your gun blooms while doing those things (moving, turning the tracks and turning the turret). The lower the numbers in those fields, the less the gun blooms during the given action. Ive also put a bunch of other tier 8 mediums on there to compare. (Ive not included the Centurion Mk. 1 because it shares the same values as the 4202 on the live server). Collectively, these values are referring to a tanks 'gun handling' and augment the aimtime and base accuracy. (Additionally the '... firing' and 'damaged' are also part of a tanks gun handling, but they are usually close to identical across all tanks).

 

So lets look at the Pz. 58 Mutz: the base accuracy is slightly worse than the 4202 at 0.35, and the aim time of their guns are the same, but look at the 3 values I pointed out... because theyre lower than the 4202, the Mutz will take less time actually aiming its gun to fire a shot off. And with 212 pen, your arent really missing the extra 14 pen that the Centurion has.

 

Now look at the STA-2: Base accuracy the same as the Mutz, 0.35 but slightly better aim time on its gun compared to the 4202. And the gun handling values? Way better than the 4202. And even better than the Mutz witht he same penetration. So the STA-2 spends even less time aiming.

 

Then you can go across the entire line. The gun handling values for the 4202/Centurion are worse than pretty much every tier 8 medium, bar the Indein Panzer, T-54 mod. 1 and one or two others. The penetration doesnt balance this out, and neither does the DPM.

 

Now heres the 9.17.1 test values:

 

http://beta.tanks.gg...dien-pz~tvp-vtu

 

Ive switched to the Mk. 1 Centurion for that link, because the 4202 isnt getting a DPM buff at all. Just useless speed. And you can see, the Mk. 1 Centurion now has workable DPM, but its gun handling is still bad.

 

Now Im not asking for Patton KR levels of gun handling here... because that would be silly, but values closer to the STA-2's values (in addition to buffing the DPM of both tanks) would make the Mk. 1 Centurion and FV4202 way better and would actually address the problems that the tanks have, unlike the speed "buff".

 

The Mk. 7/1 Centurion is in the same boat, except, the DPM buff its getting is extremely minor, so much so that I barely felt the difference, and Ive played 700+ battles in the Mk. 7/1. It needs more of a DPM boost and a gun handling buff, not a speed "buff".


Edited by Avalon304, Feb 03 2017 - 09:24.


ShookYang #12 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 09:48

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Admittedly, I've only ground the Obj 430 line, so I'm more used to poor accuracy, poor pen, poor gun depression, and poor aim time.

 

I picked up the FV4202 after 9.17 came out, or which ever patch had the 40 km/h speed buff, and I really enjoy playing it when I can take advantage of the gun depression and how bouncy the turret can be..  But, again, I'm comparing it to RU mediums, as that is my only other frame of reference.  Outside of my first win of the day, my most played tanks (if not platooning) are currently the FV4202p and T-44-100 (the latter I got just before the former).

 

I guess I don't find the gun handling as bad as you do.



zed2204 #13 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 09:56

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Gun handling is not bad
And it was the speed that was the biggest problem, so hard to dodge arty with that speed, I never been killed more by clickers in anything else
And it is not like it is fast now,I played it on the test server, shure it is faster but the fact that it can go 50 doesn't mean It actually does, without an engine upgrade a Mutz although having the same limit is way faster and agile

Now you can get to position with the group and not trailing behind and can participate in the cleanup

Avalon304 #14 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 10:17

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View PostShookYang, on Feb 03 2017 - 00:48, said:

Admittedly, I've only ground the Obj 430 line, so I'm more used to poor accuracy, poor pen, poor gun depression, and poor aim time.

 

I picked up the FV4202 after 9.17 came out, or which ever patch had the 40 km/h speed buff, and I really enjoy playing it when I can take advantage of the gun depression and how bouncy the turret can be..  But, again, I'm comparing it to RU mediums, as that is my only other frame of reference.  Outside of my first win of the day, my most played tanks (if not platooning) are currently the FV4202p and T-44-100 (the latter I got just before the former).

 

I guess I don't find the gun handling as bad as you do.

 

If youre used to band gun handling, it doesnt seem as bad (in fact it seems good) but when you play tanks with good gun handling and aimtimes and accuracy its pretty bad.

 

View Postzed2204, on Feb 03 2017 - 00:56, said:

Gun handling is not bad
And it was the speed that was the biggest problem, so hard to dodge arty with that speed, I never been killed more by clickers in anything else
And it is not like it is fast now,I played it on the test server, shure it is faster but the fact that it can go 50 doesn't mean It actually does, without an engine upgrade a Mutz although having the same limit is way faster and agile

Now you can get to position with the group and not trailing behind and can participate in the cleanup


The gun handling on the Centurions and 4202 is terrible. Actually terrible, especially when compared with their peers (in either tier 8 or 9).

 

Listen, as someone with over 700+ games in the 7/1 and another 100+ combined in the Mk. 1/4202 Im telling you that if you were finding the speed any sort of issue, you were playing the tank wrong. And dodging arty isnt nearly as hard as you make it sound. Im killed way more by arty in my heavy tanks than I am in my Centurion, and I play my 7/1 way more.

 

You can already get into position with the Centurions as they are now. The "buff" doesnt open up any positions to you that do the tank any good, and you can already participate in the cleanup as the tank is currently. Nothing is changing with this "buff". So why do it? Why  Its not addressing any issues, and its not fixing any problems with the tank itself.



Thrain_Ironsword #15 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 13:47

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The speed buff is at least a good start, though, and yes it was needed because they are too slow.  We are lucky they did anything at all to it - takes forever to get every tank buffed that needs it - still plenty on the list that are waiting and have been waiting for years.  I said over-analyzed because of that reason (plus I think I was on my phone at the time, so it's hard to type much) - are you trying to get the speed buff taken away?  It doesn't mean you are forced to play it differently, it will still be a better tank overall... keep pushing the other buffs, that would be great, but it still needed a speed buff as well.  I don't care what other buffs it gets, I would not want the speed to be lowered back down, they were too slow.  They still probably won't be fast enough without good terrain resistance values and hp/t ratios.  Will have to see how the final product runs.

 

You can say "you are playing the tanks wrong" all you want... but most matches don't allow you to remain unspotted the entire game (to avoid arty) and sit back (in a medium tank) and snipe what your team exposes for you and use them as meat shields and farm damage.  Not saying you are, but that's what it amounts to much of the time.  You can't rely on any of that and not everyone wants to play like that anyway, at least not without some sort of flexibility (speed).  90% of the time I imagine you will need to stop sniping and do something else to help your team win, the speed will help.

 

Yes, I am biased because I like fast tanks, so don't take anything I say personally... but I think with recent meta and the power-creep these tanks need the speed in addition to any other buffs they may need.

 

If playing a certain way (your play style) works for you and gets you good results, then great - good for you.  Yes, that may be one effective way of playing the tanks, but again, not everyone feels like doing the exact same thing for the entire match, every single match.  There are other ways of playing certain tanks effectively, without completely throwing away the strengths of your tank.  Flexibility and maneuverability help... especially medium tanks as opposed to.... I don't know... tank destroyers that snipe from some ridge somewhere. 


Edited by Thrain_Ironsword, Feb 03 2017 - 14:08.


Avalon304 #16 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 21:46

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Block Quote

 The speed buff is at least a good start, though, and yes it was needed because they are too slow.  We are lucky they did anything at all to it - takes forever to get every tank buffed that needs it - still plenty on the list that are waiting and have been waiting for years.  I said over-analyzed because of that reason (plus I think I was on my phone at the time, so it's hard to type much) - are you trying to get the speed buff taken away?  It doesn't mean you are forced to play it differently, it will still be a better tank overall... keep pushing the other buffs, that would be great, but it still needed a speed buff as well.  I don't care what other buffs it gets, I would not want the speed to be lowered back down, they were too slow.  They still probably won't be fast enough without good terrain resistance values and hp/t ratios.  Will have to see how the final product runs.

 

A buff that does nothing for the role of the tank is a good start? Im sorry, but what? WG takes forever to buff tanks and you want to blow this buff on a change that does ZERO for the tank? Thats dumb. Yes. I'm trying to get WG to not go through with the changes to the speed of the Centurions and 4202. I want them to fix the actual issues with the tanks, not wase time changing things that dont need to be changed. Anything that you can do with the new speed you can already do on the live server, and you cant do anything new. This is literally a placebo change. You see "50kph" and think "OMG its gonna be so much better now". But it isnt, because the change is going to do nothing for you.

 

Block Quote

 You can say "you are playing the tanks wrong" all you want... but most matches don't allow you to remain unspotted the entire game (to avoid arty) and sit back (in a medium tank) and snipe what your team exposes for you and use them as meat shields and farm damage.  Not saying you are, but that's what it amounts to much of the time.  You can't rely on any of that and not everyone wants to play like that anyway, at least not without some sort of flexibility (speed).  90% of the time I imagine you will need to stop sniping and do something else to help your team win, the speed will help.

 

No one is saying "remain unspotted and snipe". Thats not what "second line support" or "poke ridgelines" mean. In any reality. And honest to god, if people want to play more flexible tanks... there are SIXTEEN other tier 8 mediums and TWELVE other tier 9 medium tanks that are all way more flexible. You again assume that "second line support" and "poking ridelines" means sniping when they dont mean that. Its ok for tank to be slow and inflexible. Not every tank needs to be capable of carrying a game, and not every tank needs to be able to flex around the map. There are plenty of other tanks that can do that, and that will still do it way better in 9.17.1 if these Centurion changes go through.

 

If you are attempting to put either Centurion or the 4202 in a position where you say "gee this tank feels too slow", you are playing the tank wrong. Instead of whining to the devs that the tank is too slow, distracting them from the tanks REAL issues, learn how to play the tank to its strengths and you'll find that the tank is fast enough to do what it needs to do. 

 

Block Quote

 Yes, I am biased because I like fast tanks, so don't take anything I say personally... but I think with recent meta and the power-creep these tanks need the speed in addition to any other buffs they may need.

 

Your bias aside, heres something important to realize: Not every tank needs to fit into the meta perfectly. Just because the meta is mobility based right now doesnt mean every tank needs its speed buffed. Do you know what happens when we start buffing every tank to be like every other tank? Variety goes away and tank eventually all become exactly the same. If we're gonna continue down that route lets just make every tank in the game a T110E5 and be done with it, because thats where the "lets make every tank fits the meta" argument leads. Unique tanks with unique roles is a good thing. Variety is a good thing. The removal of such things leads to the homogenization of the game as a whole and thats BAD. That anyone would want that is astounding.

 

Block Quote

 If playing a certain way (your play style) works for you and gets you good results, then great - good for you.  Yes, that may be one effective way of playing the tanks, but again, not everyone feels like doing the exact same thing for the entire match, every single match.  There are other ways of playing certain tanks effectively, without completely throwing away the strengths of your tank.  Flexibility and maneuverability help... especially medium tanks as opposed to.... I don't know... tank destroyers that snipe from some ridge somewhere. 

 

It isn't "my playstyle". This is about the role the tank fills and how to play the tank to its strengths. As I said above if people dont want to play this way there are 16 tier 8s and 12 tier 9s that all play differently than the Centurions/4202. Do you know what I do when I dont want to play a tank that has a certain play style? I play different tanks. If I dont want to play the super heavy brawl with armor role, I dont queue up my E 100 and try to play it like a medium and then whine when that doesnt work. When I dont want to scout I dont queue up my T71 and face check heavies and then whine when it doesnt work. Why is it ok for people to queue up a Centurion, try to play it like a traditional medium and then whine that its too slow to fill that role when it isnt supposed to fill that role?



Thrain_Ironsword #17 Posted Feb 03 2017 - 23:41

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Again with the "you're playing the tank wrong" silliness.

 

You also told the other guy that if he was getting hit by arty then he was playing the tank wrong - that pretty much means you are saying he has to remain unspotted and snipe.

 

No, you don't play a LT like a heavy and you don't play a Heavy like a medium... but it would be nice to be able to play a Medium like a Medium.  Being slightly faster does not make it unable to use ridgelines.  It simply makes you able to be more maneuverable on the ridgeline and switch to another ridgeline quicker and safer, should you need to do so.  Again, this is why I say you are over-analyzing and basically pushing back against making the tank better.  I understand you wanting a slight adjustment of the gun parameters, but I still think it needed the speed buff as well.  The speed buff actually helps it fulfill the role you are talking about by making easier to poke and pull back on ridgelines, if that's what you want to do.


Edited by Thrain_Ironsword, Feb 04 2017 - 01:54.


Avalon304 #18 Posted Feb 04 2017 - 06:29

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View PostThrain_Ironsword, on Feb 03 2017 - 14:41, said:

Again with the "you're playing the tank wrong" silliness.

 

You also told the other guy that if he was getting hit by arty then he was playing the tank wrong - that pretty much means you are saying he has to remain unspotted and snipe.

 

No, you don't play a LT like a heavy and you don't play a Heavy like a medium... but it would be nice to be able to play a Medium like a Medium.  Being slightly faster does not make it unable to use ridgelines.  It simply makes you able to be more maneuverable on the ridgeline and switch to another ridgeline quicker and safer, should you need to do so.  Again, this is why I say you are over-analyzing and basically pushing back against making the tank better.  I understand you wanting a slight adjustment of the gun parameters, but I still think it needed the speed buff as well.  The speed buff actually helps it fulfill the role you are talking about by making easier to poke and pull back on ridgelines, if that's what you want to do.

 

You are. If the speed is ever an issue, you are playing the tank wrong. Its no different than playing a heavy as a medium or a light as a heavy. Its the same situation. Anyone comes on to this forum and says "I keep fighting heavy tanks in my T71 and dying." they will get told that they are playing the tank wrong. If the speed is becoming an issue for you, then you are playing the Centurion wrong. Its no different.

 

Yes. But the Centurion is able to effectively dodge arty fire. It doesnt require remaining unspotted or remaining at the back to avoid arty. Im often on the frontlines (where I shouldnt be) because matches require it, and I have ZERO issues avoid arty fire. Arty relies on you being predictable (and some luck) to actually hit. Its easy enough to dodge arty shells.

 

Ive bolded a few sections of your post: Speed /= Maneuverability. You are not getting a HP/ton buff along with this 50kph top speed. You are not magically going to be able to poke ridge lines faster or pull back faster, nor will you be more maneuverable along that ridge line or on the way to other ridge lines. As for being faster to ridgelines? No. You will not, in any meaningful way, be faster to any position that you should be in. You will not be fast enough over open ground to outrun other more maneuverable and faster tanks and you are still the size of a Centurion, so you wont be dodging fire.

 

This is not making the tank better. Its not doing anything for the tank.



Slatherer #19 Posted Feb 04 2017 - 07:02

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Me thinks if you have to know a tank really, really well...  its either a high skill floor tank with a high ceiling...  or its a crappy tank.

The Cents just are crappy tanks, save for the CAX.  But that thing is as big as a barn.  Other lines outshine these guys by far.

Avalon304 #20 Posted Feb 04 2017 - 09:44

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View PostSlatherer, on Feb 03 2017 - 22:02, said:

Me thinks if you have to know a tank really, really well... its either a high skill floor tank with a high ceiling... or its a crappy tank.

The Cents just are crappy tanks, save for the CAX. But that thing is as big as a barn. Other lines outshine these guys by far.

 

So something that requires knowledge is either something that you need to be skilled at, or its something that is just bad? That last part makes no sense. Requiring knowledge is a good thing, it doesnt make a thing bad.

 

The Centurions are high skill floor tanks, that require thought to play. They require you to actually learn about your tank. Other lines outshine them as pure medium tanks, sure, because the Centurions arent pure medium tanks. Also the speed "buff" doesnt actually change that. Other lines will STILL outshine the Centurions as pure mediums in 9.17.1. The tanks arent being changed in a meaningful way.

 

Heres what will happen though, if these speed buffs go through:

 

Players will play their Centurions like pure medium tanks using their new "speed" to try and flank other tanks or wolfpack with other mediums. They'll put their tank into a bad position and then they wont be able to get out of it, because they wont have the DPM and they wont have the armor and they'll be as big as a barn. They'll die, and then they'll come to the forums and whine the the tank is still bad, despite them having put themselves in a bad position, in a tank that never should have been in the position in the first place. And then people will complain that the 50kph top speed is either too slow or that the tank needs a better power to weight or better terrain resistances, when all the tank needed from the get go was better DPM and better gun handling. And we'll be right back here in another year and a half having this same conversation, because buffing the speed of the Centurions/4202 isnt how you fix the Centurions/4202.






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