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godofdun #47081 Posted Today, 04:33 AM

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So, on a less contentious note, 3 days in a row with no fever so whatever the hell I had (we're calling it faux-vid) is done so back to work tomorrow.  

 

Anyone else notice that our reported cases/deaths are flat?



Avalon304 #47082 Posted Today, 04:43 AM

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View PostCruiser_Katori, on Sep 28 2020 - 16:34, said:

 

You know... Ive read that page a few times now... and Ive seen nowhere on it that suggests he or anyone else in his administration will be coming for your guns. Unless youre talking about the optional buyback or registration (neither of which would qualify as them "coming for your guns" ).

 

Are we talking about the ban on assault weapons and high capacity magazines? I mean, other than "assault weapons" being a generally nebulous term, that's  probably a good thing. You dont need an AK-47 or an AR-15 for defense, or for hunting. Heck, Id love to own a P90. Thats a cool gun, with an interesting method of the rounds being loaded, but lets actually be real here: I dont need that. And if I were to try to use the 2A as justification for having it, I would be nuts.

 

Cant see how closing loopholes in purchasing firearms is a bad thing. Im also pretty ok with limiting the online sales of firearms, as it probably shouldnt be something you can do from home.

 

Nothing on that page is a bad thing, and none of it suggests they are coming to take your guns away. Does however seem like they want to make sure people who do own guns are properly licensed and in a correct mental state, and those guns can be tracked if they are used in a crime and it seems like they want to protect other innocent people from being the victims of a mass shooting. (And yes, we can get into the but people use cars to run people over argument, but you generally need a license to drive a motor vehicle... so, it really wouldnt help your case).

 

I mean why are we the only country in the world with such a huge problem of gun violence? Something has to be done. Im not calling for a constitutional amendment to render the 2A toothless (not that that could even reliably be done in the first place) but jesus christ, something needs to be done. And any time any one trise we get the 2A nut jobs coming out of the woodwork screaming about 'muh guns!' We have a problem. And the solution to that problem isnt lets keep going as we are.


Edited by Avalon304, Today, 04:44 AM.


Cruiser_Katori #47083 Posted Today, 04:48 AM

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View PostMermaid_Witch, on Sep 28 2020 - 15:03, said:

Uh huh.  You know, I take meds to keep those paranoid fantasies that you're obviously suffering from under wraps. 

No, the thing is that I know to NOT trust fair-weather-friends who have such drastically different goals from myself that feel like they might turn on me faster than a unicycle under the appropriate circumstances. Furthermore, if my calling out rioters, arsonists, and vandals is "othering", certain comments here of late (you all know who you are, I'm TRYING not to name-and-shame) definitely are "othering". And an "other" that happens to be what feels like an unwanted minority across a lot of the country? That scenario is not new in the Union, and examples happened as late as the mid-late 1900s IIRC. Still do to a "lesser" extent, with things like g*y-bashing, egging houses, sexually assaulting empowered women, brutalizing the disabled, etc (hey, why do you think I first started learning2gun? ) . No more snide comments here, and no disrespect intended, I quite literally feel like I cannot trust you. I've tried to stay helpful (remember how I kept trying to get you to open up about your employment options? yeah, I was trying to help, for all the good that was worth) and civil(-ish). However, events of late though seem to have brought out the worst in you and others, and honestly, when that's aimed at me, it's rather f**king terrifying. The only reason I don't block is A) it goes against my ethics, and B) I lose access to potentially valuable information. 

View PostKilljoyCutter, on Sep 28 2020 - 15:15, said:

Here's the difference I see -- if Biden wins, anything he does can be undone, because he'll still respect institutions and elections.  If Trump wins... we're done as a democracy, we'll be a DINO. 

This election comes down to who terrifies me less. 

View PostZergling, on Sep 28 2020 - 16:07, said:

Exactly right.

If Biden wins, the people will still have a voice, and the rule of law will prevail.

If Trump wins, all of that is gone out the window.

Further, anyone that thinks Trump and the GOP won't flip on the gun rights issue when it is no longer politically useful for them is delusional. And once they have their one-party dictatorship, gun rights is no longer politically useful to them.

And guess what? With the rule of law and constitutional checks and balances no longer functioning under such a dictatorship, it will be even easier for them to seize guns.

View PostKilljoyCutter, on Sep 28 2020 - 16:35, said:

That bunch will support the 2nd until the instant it's not convenient for them. 

And then they'll impose restrictions that come down very disproportionately on the poor, minorities, etc -- as has always happened with American gun control.

Ok, looks like there's a MASSIVE misunderstanding here, and one I *thought* I covered already. Here's this:

Block Quote

 Mmmmmm, more along the line of "Do you want the Right-wing totalitarian religious dictatorship NOW, but at least you can shoot them, or the Left-wing progressivist-socialist party totalitarian system LATER, after they've disarmed everyone and it's more difficult to shoot them". Alternatively, it's "do you want to completely screw over 1/3rd of the country for all time, but they are often critical personnel in utilities, production, and the military, or do you want to screw over 2/3rds of the country until demographics shift sufficiently to make them 9/10ths, but they're somewhat less likely to shut down the entire grid to multiple big cities in the middle of winter". Because for previously listed reasons, given that Mango seems to be moving forward with shoving through a judge, and what the Left will likely do as tit-for-tat, I see a scenario where said critical 1/3rd of the country is in what would basically be a de facto "taxation without representation" scenario that caused some wee bit of trouble for the British a few hundred years ago. Honestly, I don't know which scenario ends better or worse.

Only a few posts back,, I tried to explain how I saw this whole disaster. Obviously, I failed somewhere, probably in giving sufficient detail. I shall now try to rectify that. 

 

What I see is Trump is likely a "hard" totalitarian shift, with full-blown putsch right when the PRC and Russian Federation are practically drooling for one, but such an event would be neutral to slightly positive for only about a 3rd of the country, and positive for even fewer. The result is immediate, ugly,  and messy enough to make the uncivil conflicts of Europe look tame by comparison, but has the silver lining of hopefully disabusing the absurd notion a lot of folks still have that "it can't happen here", and of "I don't need my arms, and can sacrifice them for the possible better option". Also, hopefully it puts Big Religion and Social Justice Warrior-ing very, VERY firmly on the back burner, while getting everyone to try this weird thing called listening to each other, and leaving each other the f*** alone. I know, crazy idea. I really am an unsalvageable optimist, right?  

 

I then see the Biden/Harris option as the exact opposite: a "soft" totalitarian shift, where the changes in the machinery are slow, but don't "boil the frog" too quickly and are immediately advantageous to 2/3rds of the country. However, the long-term is likely a serious drawback to all, as the means of a "reset" are rapidly lost for "public safety" or "preventing another Trump" reasons (I expect the Democratic party to only respect the institutions that are directly in their interests, much like all other politicians), and the 2/3rds keep the other 3rd in check as demographic shifts slowly whittle them down until they're a minority even more easily attacked politically, socially, and economically by the majority as a scapegoat, keeping the blame off failed policies and home-front disasters. At that point, you basically need a revolution much like the Czechs had, except now it's already happened once so The Party knows what to look out for. Basically China (believe it or not, the horrific Communist Chinese system is actually beneficial to a lot of Chinese), but in the Union. Much, much more difficult to get out of long term, but everyone wants it because of the mirage of control.

Quite literally what I've been trying to say is that control is not there, and the end result (in generality, obviously the details will be highly varied) will be the same.

 

And here is why I don't see Trump, the Dictator pulling off weapons laws (as an example, since that's the one everyone latched on to), and Biden/Harris succeeding: I seriously doubt he'd survive long enough to do so, though whether by mob or by his Praetorians would be up to history to decide, while the changes Biden/Harris would likely make (again, I'd be SHOCKED if they don't, considering that it seems the Democratic party head honchos appear to believe they have a darn-near divine mandate at this point, same as the Republican heads) would be "lesser" in the short term, but have far greater negative longevity. It goes beyond any weapon law, or speech law, or voting ability, or collection of and boils down to who gets screwed over, and for how long.

 

As for the rest of my post, I was a wee bit tickled that certain folks seemed to be completely ignoring the maneuvers the Democratic party have been making of late, apparently A) viewing a Biden/Harris AWB as unlikely (another example of "it cannot happen here", at least from what I can see), and B) that the Democratic party is some sort of savior that can't have ill effect in the long-term, or in the short. Tickled pink, I tell you, and I just felt a most terrible urge to (try to) disabuse said folks of their quaint notions. I understand that it *may* have come across as a tad bit hostile, but at this point, after almost an entire Trump presidency and more disastrous policies from both parties than I can shake an entire bundle of sticks at, I'm not sorry in the slightest for giving a firm and thorough tongue-lashing to those who still refuse to learn, and who's actions suggest they would gladly toss me on the rails for a pence. No pun intended.

 

Again: from everyone's obvious posted PoV's, it seems pretty bloody obvious that the three people I should be trusting over here to have my best interests in mind are Me, Myself, and I. Possibly not Myself though, she's a b**ch. Especially on Mondays and Fridays. Otherwise, you'll just have to excuse me for being anywhere from a mite to gravely skeptical of the lot of ye, from the poster of "crimes committed in a protest are not crimes" (sorry I butchered your quote, it was too far back to find, but made quite an impression), to the more recent additions. I'm afraid I feel it is a forced but necessary measure to assure my long-term survival at this point.


Now, on to the things I WANTED to post, before I was distracted:

 

Dunno how many of you heard about the NYC-PD Chicom Spy, but I figured I might as well post. Seems nowhere is safe from Communism.

 

Beautiful Arctic is Beautiful, and DAMN do I miss the bright blue-gray glacial silt waters of the North.

 

Last but certainly not least, I don't know how many of you have heard about the Grenadier being found, but it's the first I've heard.


EDIT, bloody edit:

View PostAvalon304, on Sep 28 2020 - 18:43, said:

 

You know... Ive read that page a few times now... and Ive seen nowhere on it that suggests he or anyone else in his administration will be coming for your guns. Unless youre talking about the optional buyback or registration (neither of which would qualify as them "coming for your guns" ).

 

Are we talking about the ban on assault weapons and high capacity magazines? I mean, other than "assault weapons" being a generally nebulous term, that's  probably a good thing. You dont need an AK-47 or an AR-15 for defense, or for hunting. Heck, Id love to own a P90. Thats a cool gun, with an interesting method of the rounds being loaded, but lets actually be real here: I dont need that. And if I were to try to use the 2A as justification for having it, I would be nuts.

 

Cant see how closing loopholes in purchasing firearms is a bad thing. Im also pretty ok with limiting the online sales of firearms, as it probably shouldnt be something you can do from home.

 

Nothing on that page is a bad thing, and none of it suggests they are coming to take your guns away. Does however seem like they want to make sure people who do own guns are properly licensed and in a correct mental state, and those guns can be tracked if they are used in a crime and it seems like they want to protect other innocent people from being the victims of a mass shooting. (And yes, we can get into the but people use cars to run people over argument, but you generally need a license to drive a motor vehicle... so, it really wouldnt help your case).

 

I mean why are we the only country in the world with such a huge problem of gun violence? Something has to be done. Im not calling for a constitutional amendment to render the 2A toothless (not that that could even reliably be done in the first place) but jesus christ, something needs to be done. And any time any one trise we get the 2A nut jobs coming out of the woodwork screaming about 'muh guns!' We have a problem. And the solution to that problem isnt lets keep going as we are.

1) The registration ain't optional if you want to keep it under the plan. The only "option" is sell (for whatever paltry sum the Guv is offering), or register into the NFA and try to survive the Federal rectal exam.

2) Devil is in the details as to what an "assault weapon" is. In my state, a "semiautomatic assault rifle" is any semiauto rifle. And if you think you don't need more than 3/5/10/whatever rounds for self-defense or something, you probably haven't heard of the cases where a non- drugged up feller is shot some 20-30 times before he stops. Rare, but possibly lethal if you encounter it and are capacity-limited.

3) Loophole? There are no loopholes left (never really WERE, but I'll leave that out for brevity), save for ones that prevent you from turning family and friends into criminals (in my state, I cannot let my own damn mother borrow a rifle on an informal range, because background checks), and procedural protections (that three day check limit is there because a right delayed is a right denied). Also, since when has a "red flag" law been anything other than a legal nightmare?

4) So suing firearms and munitions companies out of business until almost nobody wants to do business in the states is a good thing? Ok, then, this is part of why I DO NOT trust a maniac like you with my civil rights and well-being. Seriously, you're nuttier than a nest of squirrels on a nut farm if you believe that is OK.

5) "Gun violence". Such a wonderfully nebulous term. Tell you what: you get the suicide rate down and get the gangs to knock of their nonsense, and I'll show you a drastically lower "gun violence" rate. Av, it ain't the guns. Never was. If it was, I would be an undead litch typing with skeletal hands, along with most of the population. 

 

Look: it seems you don't "get" what the legal devils-in-the-details are for this page of absolute disasters, and I have work tomorrow. I get that you're trying to "do good", but your good intentions are leading you down a path to Hades, and you really need to stop for a bit and more deeply consider the implications of those proposals. I'm getting seriously tired of explaining them (and too damn many other things) to folks (both online and IRL) who seem to have a Doctorate in Not Listening. 


Edited by Cruiser_Katori, Today, 05:06 AM.


Zergling #47084 Posted Today, 04:49 AM

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View Postgodofdun, on Sep 29 2020 - 13:33, said:

So, on a less contentious note, 3 days in a row with no fever so whatever the hell I had (we're calling it faux-vid) is done so back to work tomorrow.  

 

Yay, congrats

 

 

View Postgodofdun, on Sep 29 2020 - 13:33, said:

Anyone else notice that our reported cases/deaths are flat?

 

Cases are going down in some areas, going up in others; it looks like Wisconsin and some other mid-west states might be next for a serious outbreak.

 

Meanwhile, Florida has lifted all coronavirus restrictions, despite new daily cases still around 3-4 times the pre-surge level, and active cases at 10 times the pre-surge level.

 

 

View PostCruiser_Katori, on Sep 29 2020 - 13:48, said:

/snip

 

Yeah, I'm not gonna bother reading that wall-of-rant.

 


Edited by Zergling, Today, 04:54 AM.


KilljoyCutter #47085 Posted Today, 05:39 AM

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 28 2020 - 22:43, said:

 

You know... Ive read that page a few times now... and Ive seen nowhere on it that suggests he or anyone else in his administration will be coming for your guns. Unless youre talking about the optional buyback or registration (neither of which would qualify as them "coming for your guns" ).

 

Are we talking about the ban on assault weapons and high capacity magazines? I mean, other than "assault weapons" being a generally nebulous term, that's  probably a good thing. You dont need an AK-47 or an AR-15 for defense, or for hunting. Heck, Id love to own a P90. Thats a cool gun, with an interesting method of the rounds being loaded, but lets actually be real here: I dont need that. And if I were to try to use the 2A as justification for having it, I would be nuts.

 

Cant see how closing loopholes in purchasing firearms is a bad thing. Im also pretty ok with limiting the online sales of firearms, as it probably shouldnt be something you can do from home.

 

Nothing on that page is a bad thing, and none of it suggests they are coming to take your guns away. Does however seem like they want to make sure people who do own guns are properly licensed and in a correct mental state, and those guns can be tracked if they are used in a crime and it seems like they want to protect other innocent people from being the victims of a mass shooting. (And yes, we can get into the but people use cars to run people over argument, but you generally need a license to drive a motor vehicle... so, it really wouldnt help your case).

 

I mean why are we the only country in the world with such a huge problem of gun violence? Something has to be done. Im not calling for a constitutional amendment to render the 2A toothless (not that that could even reliably be done in the first place) but jesus christ, something needs to be done. And any time any one trise we get the 2A nut jobs coming out of the woodwork screaming about 'muh guns!' We have a problem. And the solution to that problem isnt lets keep going as we are.

 

History has shown us again and again that registration = confiscation.  Registration is flat out non-starter.

 

"Need" is a terrible standard for a country that values any sort of individual liberty.  What we don't need is politicians, bureaucrats, or our neighbors deciding what we "need" or "don't need".  You "don't need" that second television, you "don't need" that hobby restoration car, you "don't need" a house that big, you "don't need" to see your friends this weekend, you "don't need" to play video games. 

 



Avalon304 #47086 Posted Today, 07:35 AM

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Sep 28 2020 - 21:39, said:

 

History has shown us again and again that registration = confiscation.  Registration is flat out non-starter.

 

"Need" is a terrible standard for a country that values any sort of individual liberty.  What we don't need is politicians, bureaucrats, or our neighbors deciding what we "need" or "don't need".  You "don't need" that second television, you "don't need" that hobby restoration car, you "don't need" a house that big, you "don't need" to see your friends this weekend, you "don't need" to play video games. 

 

 

Registration is what we get. If you cant even do that basic thing... you probably dont deserve what you were having to register. Yes... it can be used to confiscate things. Good. It shouldnt be the wild-fracking-west when it comes to DEADLY WEAPONS. You want to own an AR-15, fine, register it with the government. You want to own an AK-47. Fine. Register it with the government. You have to register your car. Why shouldnt you also have to register a thing that was purpose built as a weapon of war? (Yes. Guns are weapons of war first, tools of self defense and recreation 2nd and distant 3rd).

 

Im sorry, Im all for individual liberties on things that dont drastically impact someone elses indivdual liberties or their health for that matter. "Individual liberty" is the same nonsense being thrown around when people dont wear a piece of cloth over their nose and mouth to protect OTHERs. Sometimes individual liberty can go too far. As it very clearly has in terms of guns. Again, I love guns, but there need to be limits. Real actual limits. Not things that pay lip service as limits but still appease the 2A nut jobs.

 

Governments are meant to GOVERN its right there in the name. They arent meant to be tiny things that stay out of the way until you want them for something. Dozens of other countries seem to get this, without treading into dictatorships or fascist regimes, why cant we? Because we have individual liberty? Thats some grade-a nonsense, and you know it.



KilljoyCutter #47087 Posted Today, 01:02 PM

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 29 2020 - 01:35, said:

Registration is what we get. If you cant even do that basic thing... you probably dont deserve what you were having to register. Yes... it can be used to confiscate things. Good.

 

Not "confiscation from those who can't use them responsibly" -- mass confiscation of personal property without regard to guilt or responsibility, with no due process. I can go dig up numerous examples of where illegalization and mass confiscation have followed registration.  And then we get into the other issues, like the crusading "journalists" who've gotten their hands on registration lists with names and addresses, and published them. 

 

Plus, I think this year has shown in multiple ways how bad an idea it is to give police more reasons and powers to harass people. 

 

 

View PostAvalon304, on Sep 29 2020 - 01:35, said:

Im sorry, Im all for individual liberties on things that dont drastically impact someone elses indivdual liberties or their health for that matter. "Individual liberty" is the same nonsense being thrown around when people dont wear a piece of cloth over their nose and mouth to protect OTHERs. Sometimes individual liberty can go too far. As it very clearly has in terms of guns. Again, I love guns, but there need to be limits. Real actual limits. Not things that pay lip service as limits but still appease the 2A nut jobs.

 

I love free speech and free thought, but ideas have clearly proven too dangerous to allow to spread unchecked.  /s

 

 

View PostAvalon304, on Sep 29 2020 - 01:35, said:

Governments are meant to GOVERN its right there in the name. They arent meant to be tiny things that stay out of the way until you want them for something. Dozens of other countries seem to get this, without treading into dictatorships or fascist regimes, why cant we? Because we have individual liberty? Thats some grade-a nonsense, and you know it.

 

They should be things that stay out of the way of people who aren't actually hurting anyone else.  IMO, government is nothing better than a necessary evil -- and the more power and control it is given over individual lives, the more power it has to go wrong.  

 

People who aren't doing anything wrong shouldn't have to suffer for the sake of "controlling" those who are. 

 

 


Edited by KilljoyCutter, Today, 01:18 PM.


Zergling #47088 Posted Today, 01:12 PM

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Sep 29 2020 - 22:02, said:

Not "confiscation from those who can't use them responsibly" -- mass confiscation of personal property without regard to guilt or responsibility, with no due process. I can go dig up numerous examples of where illegalization and mass confiscation have followed registration.  And then we get into the other issues, like the crusading "journalists" who've gotten their hands on registration lists with names and addresses, and published them. 

 

Just providing a counter-point here (I don't really have a strong position on gun registration, for or against), but the correlation between confiscations and gun registration systems might be because it isn't possible to do any sort of real mass confiscation without such a registration system in place to begin with, so it's a kind of chicken or egg situation.

 

Something to look for is instances where gun registration hasn't led to confiscation.

 



KilljoyCutter #47089 Posted Today, 02:12 PM

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Speaking of abusive, intrusive government... 

https://reason.com/2...o-snoop-on-you/

 


 

Speaking of paranoia about firearms... 

https://www.washingt...bgun-expulsion/

 


 

Grand juror in Taylor case sues to release recordings and transcripts, judge in the case of the charged officer also orders recording to be submitted to the court this week.

https://reason.com/2...pened-in-court/

 

The juror is pretty much accusing the state AG of hiding behind the secrecy of the grand jury to protect the officers.  

 


Edited by KilljoyCutter, Today, 02:58 PM.


Mermaid_Witch #47090 Posted Today, 02:47 PM

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Just saw a little old lady driving around with a life-size vinyl cutout of Trump on her rear driver's side window so it looks like she has the honor of chauffeuring around her God President.

 

Naturally,  I got a picture.  Need to cleanse the picture of location-identifying information first, though.


Edited by Mermaid_Witch, Today, 02:49 PM.





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