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T110's Sixth Summer of Love and Tolerance


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KilljoyCutter #26361 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 19:49

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Mar 13 2018 - 13:40, said:

The killer thing here IMO is that I get the feeling that unless PROVEN without a reasonable doubt .. Putin can play the martyr to an unjust and bullying west.  All the while, laughing ... brings up the image of Reynald from Kingdom of Heavan ... "prove it".

 

It will never be proven to the point that the Kremlin admits active or complicit involvement.  A communication from the Kremlin to agents in London could be triple-verified, the agents could be caught and confess on live television, the poison could be positively linked to Russian labs, and Putin would still issue angry denials and their sockpuppets and useful idiots would still spam the media with "alternative theories". 

 

The point here should be to convince the rest of the world, and Putin's public response be damned. 

 



Kenshin2kx #26362 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 19:54

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Mar 13 2018 - 08:49, said:

 

It will never be proven to the point that the Kremlin admits active or complicit involvement.  A communication from the Kremlin to agents in London could be triple-verified, the agents could be caught and confess on live television, the poison could be positively linked to Russian labs, and Putin would still issue angry denials and their sockpuppets and useful idiots would still spam the media with "alternative theories". 

 

The point here should be to convince the rest of the world, and Putin's public response be damned. 

 

 

99% of me urges agreement ... particularly in light of it being outside the United States ... but the 1% screams eventual involvement with Lord Orange ... that thought makes me pause as to what he would set into motion.



Starne #26363 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 19:56

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Mar 13 2018 - 13:40, said:

 

The killer thing here IMO is that I get the feeling that unless PROVEN without a reasonable doubt .. Putin can play the martyr to an unjust and bullying west.  All the while, laughing ... brings up the image of Reynald from Kingdom of Heavan ... "prove it".

 

The thing is that there is absolutely no amount or standard of proof that would suffice to overcome the Kremlin's denials. The insidious thing about the propaganda the Kremlin pushes today isn't that they're trying to push an ideology or worldview, it's that they're pushing nihilism. "Everyone lies, no one ever tells the truth, so why bother trying to sort 'fact' from 'fiction'?" "Nobody cares about anyone but themselves, so don't bother sticking your neck out, just keep your head down and don't rock the boat." "Everyone is just as bad as everyone else, nobody's perfect, so morality and ethics don't matter."

 

And the thing is, the state run/controlled media in Russia and it's foreign outlets don't even bother to pretend they're reporting facts, which actually helps them because then they can turn around and say "See? All media is like this!" I mean, RT outright says that it's reporting "Russia's Perspective", rather than pretending to relay facts. Because remember, there are no facts, only perspective, so don't bother asking questions or chasing after that 'truth' thing.

 

The really stupid part is that western governments make it so damn easy. We talk big about a commitment to truth and principles and yet we invest more time and effort covering up our mistakes or trying to contort our failings into successes than we do owning up to them and trying to do better. Granted, I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make because our ideological rivals are just so damn nihilistic, but still.


Edited by Starne, Mar 13 2018 - 19:57.


Kenshin2kx #26364 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 20:02

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View PostStarne, on Mar 13 2018 - 08:56, said:

 

The thing is that there is absolutely no amount or standard of proof that would suffice to overcome the Kremlin's denials. The insidious thing about the propaganda the Kremlin pushes today isn't that they're trying to push an ideology or worldview, it's that they're pushing nihilism. "Everyone lies, no one ever tells the truth, so why bother trying to sort 'fact' from 'fiction'?" "Nobody cares about anyone but themselves, so don't bother sticking your neck out, just keep your head down and don't rock the boat." "Everyone is just as bad as everyone else, nobody's perfect, so morality and ethics don't matter."

 

And the thing is, the state run/controlled media in Russia and it's foreign outlets don't even bother to pretend they're reporting facts, which actually helps them because then they can turn around and say "See? All media is like this!" I mean, RT outright says that it's reporting "Russia's Perspective", rather than pretending to relay facts. Because remember, there are no facts, only perspective, so don't bother asking questions or chasing after that 'truth' thing.

 

The really stupid part is that western governments make it so damn easy. We talk big about a commitment to truth and principles and yet we invest more time and effort covering up our mistakes or trying to contort our failings into successes than we do owning up to them and trying to do better. Granted, I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make because our ideological rivals are just so damn nihilistic, but still.

 

Hmmm ... makes sense in an evil 'anti-ideological' way ... worse yet, I can see people buying into that for the very reason that we're no saints ourselves ... so that leaves me then with the last question ... what can be done (in the practical 'doable' sense ... to reverse this trend?  ... and also, is this attempted with present leadership?

Starne #26365 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 20:30

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Mar 13 2018 - 14:02, said:

 

Hmmm ... makes sense in an evil 'anti-ideological' way ... worse yet, I can see people buying into that for the very reason that we're no saints ourselves ... so that leaves me then with the last question ... what can be done (in the practical 'doable' sense ... to reverse this trend?  ... and also, is this attempted with present leadership?

 

With the current "leadership"? Absolutely nothing can be done.

 

In the long term, if the United States survives as a democracy and wrestles control back from the manchildren and sociopaths? Start owning up to mistakes instead of covering them up.

 

When something like this happens:

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/a-few-not-so-good-men-marine-pilots-a-massacre-immunity

 

The ones responsible need to be held responsible, criminally so if applicable, and absolutely no coverups to save face or protect someone's career, ever. Period. In this example, all of the negligent pilots should've been punished, whoever was responsible for maintaining and updating the maps should've been punished, the general that helped cover it all up should've been punished, and the US military should've made a formal, public apology, truthfully explained what happened, truthfully explained what will be done to prevent the same thing from happening in the future, and compensated the victims' families.

 

Being caught in lies and cover-ups over and over helps no one, it doesn't help our reputation as a country, it doesn't help the reputation of our government, and it doesn't help the reputation of our military.

 

For a more recent example, the next head of CIA is a professional torturer.

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/13/gina-haspel-cia-458726?lo=ap_b1

 

But no, everyone involved in that particular national shame, from the ones who set the policy to the ones who carried it out got to walk because going after members of the Bush administration like that would've been seen as a national embarrassment and been portrayed as a partisan attack.  Yes, prosecuting politicians and public servants who abuse their power and break the law is the national embarrassment, not that we allowed those things to happen and allowed people to get away with it. That's why I believe the best we can hope for is Donald Trump's removal from office, and have no confidence that he and his ilk will ever face justice. Scores of traitors got away scot-free after the Civil War. Nixon got a pardon. And on and on, because we as country would rather cover up our mistakes and pretend they didn't happen than own up to them and do better.


Edited by Starne, Mar 13 2018 - 20:38.


DerViktim #26366 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 21:30

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View PostStarne, on Mar 13 2018 - 14:30, said:

-snip-

 

Nixon got a pardon. And on and on, because we as country would rather cover up our mistakes and pretend they didn't happen than own up to them and do better.

 

A pardon is also an admission of guilt. By resigning The Presidency and accepting the pardon Nixon admitted his guilt and faded from public life. This allowed the nation to begin to heal from the damage of the Watergate years and for legislation to be passed to hopefully minimize the chance it could occur again in the future. Watergate was just the cherry on top of the entire crap cake that was also the Vietnam war era. One of my earliest memories as a child was the total confusion and bewilderment as to why the only President I had ever known had just quit. It wasn't until I was older that I learned what a scumbag he was and how Watergate was just the straw the broke the camel's back. Nixon got a pardon because Gerald Ford honestly thought it was the best way to begin the healing process for the nation. 

 

If I had to be ashamed of anything is that a Watergate level event could be happening all over again in my lifetime.



Dragon_Witch #26367 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 22:26

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Mar 13 2018 - 13:39, said:

And a Kremlin spokesperson has issued a "warning" that "nobody should threaten a nuclear power":

 

http://www.dailymail...oison-plot.html

 

And yet they're basically playing games with another nuclear power.  Putin seems to have forgotten that Britain has enough firepower to kill him and about 500,000,000 other Russians if they feel like it.



Daigensui #26368 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 22:27

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In the meantime, we have an actual Amanda Waller likely to become the next Director of the CIA.

Starne #26369 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 22:37

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View PostDerViktim, on Mar 13 2018 - 15:30, said:

 

A pardon is also an admission of guilt. By resigning The Presidency and accepting the pardon Nixon admitted his guilt and faded from public life. This allowed the nation to begin to heal from the damage of the Watergate years and for legislation to be passed to hopefully minimize the chance it could occur again in the future. Watergate was just the cherry on top of the entire crap cake that was also the Vietnam war era. One of my earliest memories as a child was the total confusion and bewilderment as to why the only President I had ever known had just quit. It wasn't until I was older that I learned what a scumbag he was and how Watergate was just the straw the broke the camel's back. Nixon got a pardon because Gerald Ford honestly thought it was the best way to begin the healing process for the nation. 

 

If I had to be ashamed of anything is that a Watergate level event could be happening all over again in my lifetime.

 

A pardon is an admission of guilt, yes, but it's also an admission of guilt that conveniently precludes any kind of meaningful consequences for the crime. Besides, "Beginning the nation's healing process" is exactly the justification that was used to let the secessionist states go right back to business as usual, let the political and military leaders of the Confederacy off the hook, and let the lost cause myth take root. It's literally a case of putting expediency and saving face over doing the right thing.  It's also the same justification that'll be used to let Trump and his cronies off the hook if he's ever removed from office.

 

If Nixon had faced meaningful consequences for his actions, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. If southern society had been forced to own up to its sins and meaningfully reform, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. Sweeping it all under the rug and pretending everything is fine in the name of "national healing" has never made things better, it's only made them worse.

 

If we want the nation to really heal, and not only heal but maybe become better than it ever was before, we need to do things the right way, even if that means breaking bones so they can be reset. Yes, it'll be painful, yes some people will complain, loudly, but not only is it necessary to fix the historical screw-ups that got us here, it's necessary to make sure something like this doesn't happen again for as long as the United States exists. If we want to make sure this never happens again, we need to first and foremost make it completely clear that no one, no matter how wealthy, popular, politically well-connected or powerful, is above the law. That means no pardons, no matter how much the red caps rage and no matter how much pearl-clutching there is over hauling a former president before a court to face trial. Second, things that were previously taken as ethical no-brainers, common sense, respected traditions or just common decency need to be codified into law, even if this means permanently restricting the power of the presidency or any other office for that matter. And that's just scratching the surface, but no matter what, we absolutely cannot just remove Trump from office either by impeaching him or voting him out and just try to pretend that none of this was a big deal and that we can just go back to business as usual, "national healing" or no.


Edited by Starne, Mar 13 2018 - 22:48.


Daigensui #26370 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 23:16

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Dragon_Witch #26371 Posted Mar 13 2018 - 23:20

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View PostDaigensui, on Mar 13 2018 - 17:16, said:

 

Will there be cake?  Marie promised me some cake.



SpectreHD #26372 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 00:16

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What's even more said is that his daughter and a responding police officer got caught in this.

stalkervision #26373 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 00:42

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Mar 13 2018 - 11:12, said:

 

Well now, you've been intentionally  naughty ... thus my next question - why?  As you likely predicted, benefit of the doubt can only take one so far when reality intrudes ... which for me is unfortunate at this point because, I think I am in for a perception change ... 

 

He wasn't the object of the prank. It was a co-ed bathroom prank and he got caught in the booby trap. Yes, I was being intentionally naughty indeed. I come from a long line of practical jokers. Don't worry he was fine. I glue my fingers together all the time by accident with superglue. In fact they use it in hospitals but not for this purpose. No need for a perception change it was a typical animal house prank.  :)

Kenshin2kx #26374 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 00:59

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View Poststalkervision, on Mar 13 2018 - 13:42, said:

 

He wasn't the object of the prank. It was a co-ed bathroom prank and he got caught in the booby trap. Yes, I was being intentionally naughty indeed. I come from a long line of practical jokers. Don't worry he was fine. I glue my fingers together all the time by accident with superglue. In fact they use it in hospitals but not for this purpose. No need for a perception change it was a typical animal house prank.  :)

 

Actually, I love practical jokes ... my one hesitation here was the pain/tissue damage factor ... granted the fellow would live, but I generally don't take a joke to the point where it would cause pain (outside the fright or scare factor that is).  That said, I admit that I have no idea as to the social dynamics regarding your group of friends ... if this type of joking is mutual or understood to be fair game, then I would retract any personal objections or reservations.  

Kenshin2kx #26375 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 01:11

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View PostStarne, on Mar 13 2018 - 11:37, said:

 

A pardon is an admission of guilt, yes, but it's also an admission of guilt that conveniently precludes any kind of meaningful consequences for the crime. Besides, "Beginning the nation's healing process" is exactly the justification that was used to let the secessionist states go right back to business as usual, let the political and military leaders of the Confederacy off the hook, and let the lost cause myth take root. It's literally a case of putting expediency and saving face over doing the right thing.  It's also the same justification that'll be used to let Trump and his cronies off the hook if he's ever removed from office.

 

If Nixon had faced meaningful consequences for his actions, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. If southern society had been forced to own up to its sins and meaningfully reform, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. Sweeping it all under the rug and pretending everything is fine in the name of "national healing" has never made things better, it's only made them worse.

 

If we want the nation to really heal, and not only heal but maybe become better than it ever was before, we need to do things the right way, even if that means breaking bones so they can be reset. Yes, it'll be painful, yes some people will complain, loudly, but not only is it necessary to fix the historical screw-ups that got us here, it's necessary to make sure something like this doesn't happen again for as long as the United States exists. If we want to make sure this never happens again, we need to first and foremost make it completely clear that no one, no matter how wealthy, popular, politically well-connected or powerful, is above the law. That means no pardons, no matter how much the red caps rage and no matter how much pearl-clutching there is over hauling a former president before a court to face trial. Second, things that were previously taken as ethical no-brainers, common sense, respected traditions or just common decency need to be codified into law, even if this means permanently restricting the power of the presidency or any other office for that matter. And that's just scratching the surface, but no matter what, we absolutely cannot just remove Trump from office either by impeaching him or voting him out and just try to pretend that none of this was a big deal and that we can just go back to business as usual, "national healing" or no.

 

Yes .. Universal and unwavering accountability ... I agree, achieve this and you have the solid unshakable foundation for a just and responsible society.  

PrimarchRogalDorn #26376 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 01:22

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godofdun #26377 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 01:31

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View PostDaigensui, on Mar 13 2018 - 14:27, said:

In the meantime, we have an actual Amanda Waller likely to become the next Director of the CIA.

 

"Haspel later was the chief of staff to Jose Rodriguez, who headed the CIA's Counterterrorism Center. In his memoir, Rodriguez wrote that Haspel had "drafted a cable" in 2005 ordering the destruction of dozens of videotapes made at the black site in Thailand."

 

She totally looks like a grandma who just baked me cookies too :amazed:.

 

EDIT:

 

Also, WUUUUT

"Trump surprised Shulkin by dialing in Fox & Friends host Pete Hegseth on speaker phone to get his opinion of the legislation, according to two sources with knowledge of the conversation."

https://www.axios.com/trump-losing-patience-with-va-secretary-david-shulkin-a21b0703-2d7d-44d4-b2ad-60b913563741.html


Edited by godofdun, Mar 14 2018 - 01:33.


Starne #26378 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 03:03

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Pennsylvania's 18th House district is in automatic recount territory, with the Democrat holding a very slight lead with 95% reporting. The district went for Trump by 20%.

 

.2% difference with 98% of precincts reporting. Unclear if absentee ballots are included in that.

 

Update: Absentee ballots are not included in that figure, two counties intend to count their absentee ballots tonight, the other two tomorrow. Almost 7,000 absentee ballots estimated, with over half from Allegheny county. Probably good news for the Democrat because absentee ballots tend to skew towards Democrats, and Allegheny county was pretty blue tonight.


Edited by Starne, Mar 14 2018 - 03:46.


Zergling #26379 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 04:22

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View PostStarne, on Mar 14 2018 - 12:03, said:

Pennsylvania's 18th House district is in automatic recount territory, with the Democrat holding a very slight lead with 95% reporting. The district went for Trump by 20%.

 

.2% difference with 98% of precincts reporting. Unclear if absentee ballots are included in that.

 

Update: Absentee ballots are not included in that figure, two counties intend to count their absentee ballots tonight, the other two tomorrow. Almost 7,000 absentee ballots estimated, with over half from Allegheny county. Probably good news for the Democrat because absentee ballots tend to skew towards Democrats, and Allegheny county was pretty blue tonight.

 

Cook PVI puts the 18th district at +11, so on average GOP wins it by 11 percentage points margin.

 

Article I'm reading say 99 percent reported, 49.9% for Democrat vs 49.5% for Republican.

 

The GOP should be worried about something coming at them with high velocity, because for the race to be this close that is an extreme blueshift.

 


Edited by Zergling, Mar 14 2018 - 04:23.


Starne #26380 Posted Mar 14 2018 - 04:38

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View PostZergling, on Mar 13 2018 - 22:22, said:

 

Cook PVI puts the 18th district at +11, so on average GOP wins it by 11 percentage points margin.

 

Article I'm reading say 99 percent reported, 49.9% for Democrat vs 49.5% for Republican.

 

The GOP should be worried about something coming at them with high velocity, because for the race to be this close that is an extreme blueshift.

 

 

Yep, and that's with national GOP-affiliated organizations spending almost $11 million. On a race in what should be a safe district. Whether Lamb wins or not, expect another wave of GOP incumbents retiring and candidates withdrawing.




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