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T110's Sixth Summer of Love and Tolerance


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Kamahl1234 #27781 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 03:19

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 15 2018 - 20:29, said:

 

 

You think you want that. But that is awful. Balanced teams have the effect of compressing winrates back toward 50% (49% in this game, because of draws). You can think the argument is bull but its true: in this game you either win or lose, when you balance the teams you wind up giving every team a ~50% chance to win or lose. Thats what happens in games like this.

 

You can also dislike that WR takes such a high importance, but winning is the point of this game. Win rate shows, with proper context, how often you alone can influence the games that youre in. Yes, damage per game should be used as context for win rate (because anyone can club in tier 5 and get a high win rate with low DPG), but at the end of the day winning is what this game is about.

 

I find it stupid that solo players think they deserve skill based match making instead of just improving. Not only is random MM more fair, it actually promotes learning how to play and improving. (If thats something a person actually cares about). Whether or not a player wants to do that is a different story, the players who dont will just go from blaming random MM to blaming the skill based MM for their failures, even as they get carried the majority of the time. I wouldnt have started learning and improving under a SBMM system, because there would have been nothing to overcome. In random MM I had to overcome that bad team factor, if I wanted to win and progress faster, so I had to seek out resources to team myself how to become better, to outplay other players who were equal to me and give me more time against players who were better. 

 

Skill based match making is universally awful. Its awful for the actually good players, its awful for the bad players, its awful for gameplay. (It wouldnt even result in significantly longer matches, because the MM in this game isnt the cause of short matches). Luckily Im pretty sure WG has said they'll never implement skill based MM, so we've dodged that awful bullet.

 

A good point to have is that with Skill Based MM, while the games are "balanced" and push towards a 49% WR, player skill is nullified more as while you may be "good" the game puts someone like you on the enemy team, so your carry ability is the same as theirs. So if you're good enough to say be 5% higher than the average, you now will be average. Basically it only serves to hurt good players and give handouts to bads. 

FrozenKemp #27782 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 03:29

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I suppose it depends on whether the SBMM tries to make each team have a 50% chance to win or if it only intervenes when the chances are TOO lopsided. E.g. You could declare that 60-40 is fine and only adjust the teams if the odds are worse.

 

However, there would still be tons and tons of blowouts.



Avalon304 #27783 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 03:32

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View PostSpectreHD, on Apr 15 2018 - 18:51, said:

 

You don't understand then do you? It isn't going to be 50% exact all match every match. Get off the math formulas and look at the real world scenario. A 50% 50% team will never exist just based on the different players that are in every match. Then we get in game variables like the different vehicles in the match, then the different maps, then the RNG, then the influence on ping etc etc.

 

Please get off the nonsensical unrealistic tripe of everyone getting  50% WR. It is just plain stupid.

 

All I want is reduce the disparity between teams.

 

 

Bull crap. AW had it from the very beginning. No one complained about MM. It is only when they announced MM 2.0 did players know that it existed. Then all the "good" players starting whining. "Wah wah I am sooooooooooooo punished".

 

Even Garbad recognised that "random" MM isn't random because of platoons. But all the good "wah wah" players didn't entertain his idea of the MM of balancing platoons at the skill level.

 

 

Spectre... stats are math formulas! A 50/50 team will always exist when you balance teams by skill. Thats what happens when you balance by skill. Othewrwise theres no point in balancing by skill. If every team has 5 unicums, 5 averages and 5 potatoes the win chance will always be 50%. If youre balancing so that some arbatrary rating is the same between each team the win chance is going to be 50%. Thats the PURPOSE of skill based match making. Its to smooth out winrates. Real world scenarios arent going to bear different results to the formulas, because the formulas (the matchmaker in this case) are whats governing the real world scenarios.

 

Youve never played a game with skill based matchmaking I take it, otherwise YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THIS.

 

AW didnt have SIMM from the start. It got it sometime in 2016, and it was a [edited]show from the word go. And it was subsequently removed because it was such a [edited]show.

 

When everything rest on what is, essentially a flip of the coin, theres no drive to do anything better. It becomes a game of chance. And games of chance are rarely fun.

 

Garbad was and still is a moron. I wouldnt reference him for anything.

 

Skill based anything is bad for individual player skill. Its bad for gameplay variety. Its a train wreck when implemented, and it drives good players away.



Life_In_Black #27784 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 03:54

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Hey Killjoy, how's your little lovable ball of fur doing?

Starne #27785 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 04:53

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A Michigan man, Jeffrey Zeigler, pursued and shot at a 14yr old that knocked on his door to ask for directions. The kid, Brennan Walker, missed the bus and got lost while walking to school, so he stopped to ask for directions. When he knocked on the door, Zeigler's wife promptly started screaming about someone trying to break into the house, prompting Zeigler to grab his shotgun and chase Walker down the street, firing at him at least once. Zeigler's wife then proceeded to call the police to report Walker's "crime", but further investigation including a review of footage from the Zeiglers' own security cameras, indicated that there was no break-in attempt. Zeigler has been charged with assault with intent to murder and possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony. The Zeiglers are white, and Walker is black.

 

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2018/04/13/rochester-hills-shooting-lost-teen/515895002/

 

And to think, if it weren't for the security cameras, nobody would've believed Walker, he would've gone to jail on the Zeiglers' word alone (and the color of Walker's skin, of course), and Mr. Ziegler would've been hailed as a hero. Hell, if it weren't for the cameras, Zeigler could've killed Walker in cold blood and not only would he probably have gotten away with it, he probably would've been celebrated for "defending himself".


Edited by Starne, Apr 16 2018 - 04:57.


SpectreHD #27786 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 05:21

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View PostKamahl1234, on Apr 16 2018 - 10:19, said:

A good point to have is that with Skill Based MM, while the games are "balanced" and push towards a 49% WR, player skill is nullified more as while you may be "good" the game puts someone like you on the enemy team, so your carry ability is the same as theirs. So if you're good enough to say be 5% higher than the average, you now will be average. Basically it only serves to hurt good players and give handouts to bads. 

 

Once again looking at things from only one side. How about you look at this situation, MM does its usual and puts a good player into a team of average to bad players while the other team has better players. So the MM, without upsetting the criterias it used to make the teams in the first place, shifts some players around and now that good player on what was first a bad team now has now a better chance of winning.

 

View PostAvalon304, on Apr 16 2018 - 10:32, said:

 

Spectre... stats are math formulas! A 50/50 team will always exist when you balance teams by skill. Thats what happens when you balance by skill. Othewrwise theres no point in balancing by skill. If every team has 5 unicums, 5 averages and 5 potatoes the win chance will always be 50%. If youre balancing so that some arbatrary rating is the same between each team the win chance is going to be 50%. Thats the PURPOSE of skill based match making. Its to smooth out winrates. Real world scenarios arent going to bear different results to the formulas, because the formulas (the matchmaker in this case) are whats governing the real world scenarios.

 

Youve never played a game with skill based matchmaking I take it, otherwise YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THIS.

 

AW didnt have SIMM from the start. It got it sometime in 2016, and it was a [edited]show from the word go. And it was subsequently removed because it was such a [edited]show.

 

When everything rest on what is, essentially a flip of the coin, theres no drive to do anything better. It becomes a game of chance. And games of chance are rarely fun.

 

Garbad was and still is a moron. I wouldnt reference him for anything.

 

Skill based anything is bad for individual player skill. Its bad for gameplay variety. Its a train wreck when implemented, and it drives good players away.

 

Are you purposedly daft or something? I do not, and have not, suggested a MM make a 50/50 team. All I have argued is for the MM to move players once the team has been made as reasonably as possible. That means the MM reduces the disparity between teams, not make 50/50 teams. Because the latter would take far too long especially for a server with low population like NA. This is a compromise for quick match making and reduce the degree of lopsided teams.

 

So all your other crap of things being a game of chance, making players lazy or what not does not apply as there is still a considerable "random" factor should the MM not be able to swap any players.

 

Sure, I have only played MWO. But that is a bracket system. Only thing close to WoT would be playing Battlefied 3 and 4 where the server would reshuffle the teams (while still keeping squads together) every new round and even swap players mid match. But no, there is no other games with the kind of team balancing I am talking about because there is no comparison.

 

And AW did have it from the beginning. People only knew about it when they announced the new version of it. It became a crapshow when all the "good" players started whining. Good old minority [edited]over how they are so punished. The majority can screw themselves. Solo players should be less awkward and make friends so that they can platoon to play "randoms".:rolleyes:


Edited by SpectreHD, Apr 16 2018 - 05:23.


Zergling #27787 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 11:43

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Heh, just encountered an old Threadite in MWO, Agentice:

Spoiler

 



SpectreHD #27788 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 12:20

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I can safely say, Zergling, from all your screenshots, you are a far better MWO player than I am. Although I am very close to Tier 1. Just need to play the game.

Zergling #27789 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 12:46

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View PostSpectreHD, on Apr 16 2018 - 21:20, said:

I can safely say, Zergling, from all your screenshots, you are a far better MWO player than I am. Although I am very close to Tier 1. Just need to play the game.

 

Sadly, I just can't seem to win battles this month; I'm currently at 28 wins to 30 losses.

 

And I honestly wish I wasn't Tier 1; it was more fun when I was Tier 2.



Shrike58 #27790 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 12:53

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View PostStarne, on Apr 15 2018 - 22:53, said:

A Michigan man, Jeffrey Zeigler, pursued and shot at a 14yr old that knocked on his door to ask for directions. The kid, Brennan Walker, missed the bus and got lost while walking to school, so he stopped to ask for directions. When he knocked on the door, Zeigler's wife promptly started screaming about someone trying to break into the house, prompting Zeigler to grab his shotgun and chase Walker down the street, firing at him at least once. Zeigler's wife then proceeded to call the police to report Walker's "crime", but further investigation including a review of footage from the Zeiglers' own security cameras, indicated that there was no break-in attempt. Zeigler has been charged with assault with intent to murder and possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony. The Zeiglers are white, and Walker is black.

 

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2018/04/13/rochester-hills-shooting-lost-teen/515895002/

 

And to think, if it weren't for the security cameras, nobody would've believed Walker, he would've gone to jail on the Zeiglers' word alone (and the color of Walker's skin, of course), and Mr. Ziegler would've been hailed as a hero. Hell, if it weren't for the cameras, Zeigler could've killed Walker in cold blood and not only would he probably have gotten away with it, he probably would've been celebrated for "defending himself".

 

Save me from hysterical morons...:angry:

Shrike58 #27791 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 12:55

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View PostAvalon304, on Apr 15 2018 - 19:00, said:

 

AW's skill-influenced MM was awful though. Matches were just as lopsided. Like it was sure pure garbage that they turned it off almost immediately. I think it lasted like a week or 2.

 

EDIT: Oh yea and since they capped WR at 55% for the purposes of MM players who were actually better than that were actually treated as worse players. There has never been a game company that has ever done SBMM good for the purposes of a random battle mode. Never.

 

It lasted a bit longer than that but I think it's what nipped that game in the bud as much as anything else.

Edited by Shrike58, Apr 16 2018 - 12:57.


Shrike58 #27792 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 12:57

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Apr 15 2018 - 08:27, said:

So in other words, total bullcrap from the Kremlin. 

 

 

 

The real question is whether or not they believe their own BS.

FrozenKemp #27793 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 13:05

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View PostShrike58, on Apr 16 2018 - 06:53, said:

 

Save me from hysterical morons...:angry:

 

I'm SUPER skeptical that her reaction would have been the same if it had been a white kid knocking on her door. 

 

Same ... difference in treatment with the two black men in a Philadelphia Starbucks who had the cops called on them. 



DerViktim #27794 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:09

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View PostShrike58, on Apr 16 2018 - 06:55, said:

 

It lasted a bit longer than that but I think it's what nipped that game in the bud as much as anything else.

 

The absolutely toxic jerks that infested the PvP side of the game didn't do it any favors either. I played PvE specifically to avoid them. What put the nail in the coffin of that game was their idea of what constituted a story campaign. No actual new content. Just the same old stuff but with stupid levels of game time commitment to accomplish the "goals".

SpectreHD #27795 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:45

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View PostDerViktim, on Apr 16 2018 - 21:09, said:

 

The absolutely toxic jerks that infested the PvP side of the game didn't do it any favors either. I played PvE specifically to avoid them. What put the nail in the coffin of that game was their idea of what constituted a story campaign. No actual new content. Just the same old stuff but with stupid levels of game time commitment to accomplish the "goals".

 

What I especially love is when Garbad being the most sensible voice amongst all thePvP players. He was willing to listen and see from the point of the solo players. Those other players, those "WoT refugees", ended up wanting the game to be as similar to WoT as possible. Anything different the devs wanted to do they [edited]and whine.

 

Like the devs wanted the MM to be able to make smaller matches just so we can get some PvP matches going. Nope, that got bitched out before it could even be trialed. Ironically, those that didn't wanted this cited the influence of platoons. The same morons that say platoons are fine while crying that "randoms" is most fair.



KilljoyCutter #27796 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:53

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View PostStarne, on Apr 15 2018 - 22:53, said:

A Michigan man, Jeffrey Zeigler, pursued and shot at a 14yr old that knocked on his door to ask for directions. The kid, Brennan Walker, missed the bus and got lost while walking to school, so he stopped to ask for directions. When he knocked on the door, Zeigler's wife promptly started screaming about someone trying to break into the house, prompting Zeigler to grab his shotgun and chase Walker down the street, firing at him at least once. Zeigler's wife then proceeded to call the police to report Walker's "crime", but further investigation including a review of footage from the Zeiglers' own security cameras, indicated that there was no break-in attempt. Zeigler has been charged with assault with intent to murder and possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony. The Zeiglers are white, and Walker is black.

 

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2018/04/13/rochester-hills-shooting-lost-teen/515895002/

 

And to think, if it weren't for the security cameras, nobody would've believed Walker, he would've gone to jail on the Zeiglers' word alone (and the color of Walker's skin, of course), and Mr. Ziegler would've been hailed as a hero. Hell, if it weren't for the cameras, Zeigler could've killed Walker in cold blood and not only would he probably have gotten away with it, he probably would've been celebrated for "defending himself".

 

The wife being involved hasn't been included in the radio coverage I've heard this weekend.  Makes me wonder if the wife freaked out and the husband reacted on that alone, assuming that if she's screaming about someone trying to break in then 

 

Although the article linked doesn't have some of the details of your account of the incident -- more linkage? 

 

There's this assumption that it was racial... but I've yet to see or hear any coverage that gives backing to this theory.  And no, "they were white and he was black" is not backing.   Does Ziegler have a history of racist statements or actions?   Have their been any other incidents?   What is there besides presumption? 

 

 

Chasing the kid down the street and firing at him was completely out of bounds, regardless

 

 



Shrike58 #27797 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:53

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File under: Oh Dear....:confused:

 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20116/azerbaijans-border-guard-has-this-awesomely-bad-music-video-with-tanks-and-suicide-drones



Shrike58 #27798 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:55

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Apr 16 2018 - 08:53, said:

 

The wife being involved hasn't been included in the radio coverage I've heard this weekend.  Makes me wonder if the wife freaked out and the husband reacted on that alone, assuming that if she's screaming about someone trying to break in then 

 

Although the article linked doesn't have some of the details of your account of the incident -- more linkage? 

 

There's this assumption that it was racial... but I've yet to see or hear any coverage that gives backing to this theory.  And no, "they were white and he was black" is not backing.   Does Ziegler have a history of racist statements or actions?   Have their been any other incidents?   What is there besides presumption? 

 

 

Chasing the kid down the street and firing at him was completely out of bounds, regardless

 

 

 

All good caveats but I suspect that these people are going to be as screwed-up as some of us suspect.

KilljoyCutter #27799 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:56

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View PostLife_In_Black, on Apr 15 2018 - 21:54, said:

Hey Killjoy, how's your little lovable ball of fur doing?

 

He's doing great.  Absolute sweetheart, kinda a goofball. 

 

Makes it hard to get out of the house in the morning -- he knows what it means when I'm getting cleaned up, and he doesn't want me to leave, so he follows me around the apartment, butting his head against me, showing off his collection of the most pitiable meows possible. 

 



Tjtod #27800 Posted Apr 16 2018 - 14:57

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View PostKilljoyCutter, on Apr 16 2018 - 09:56, said:

 

He's doing great.  Absolute sweetheart, kinda a goofball. 

 

Makes it hard to get out of the house in the morning -- he knows what it means when I'm getting cleaned up, and he doesn't want me to leave, so he follows me around the apartment, butting his head against me, showing off his collection of the most pitiable meows possible. 

 

 

That's adorable.




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