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Its not about skill, but luck!

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BasilBarfly01 #1 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 02:35

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deleted


Edited by BasilBarfly01, Oct 23 2017 - 01:33.


SinsOfWrath #2 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 02:41

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Well there is some truth to your assessment.  This one of the most RNG intensive games I've ever played.

Edited by SinsOfWrath, Mar 03 2017 - 02:42.


GeorgePreddy #3 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 02:46

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But it's the 10% skill that really COUNTS !!!

 

Because, over the long run, everyone's "luck" is the same (due to randomness).



Doomslinger #4 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 02:48

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I would say that that a player who is above average in stats would have more like 20-30% skill and 70-80% luck to win a battle. Add in platoons of 3 skilled players and you can turn the skill factor up even more. A top tier platoon of good players can carry teams and win 70% victories over a long platoon session. The exact opposite happens when three below average players platoon. They will actually lose more than they normally would especially if top tier because every team they are on is guaranteed to have 3 below average players on it every time. Here is match I just played and there is no doubt that my contributions here turned a sure loss into a victory for the team. The players in the two russian OP premium tier 8 heavies were average and below average in skill according to their records. I was fighting against both of them.



Jer1413 #5 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 02:59

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View PostBasilBarfly01, on Mar 03 2017 - 01:35, said:

 Because if you get to good at the game and you are becoming skillful at it, the game puts you in with a bunch of thumb sucking, crayon eating, helmet wearing, screen licking, glue sniffing nerf herding tomatoes who couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

 

 

 

Basil

 

 

You must get those skillful players on your teams all the time.



Cutthroatlemur #6 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 03:18

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Yep, game to game there is a lot of luck, but as GeorgePreddy correctly pointed out, over time everyone experiences the same amount of luck or randomness.  The only constant is your contribution and this is reflected in your stats.

Fluffy_Kittens #7 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 03:24

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the outcome of the games in WoT is NOT about how much skill you have....

its about how many skilless you have on your team.



NomaeTheJester #8 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 03:25

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Well you definitely forgot a few in the skill category like:

  • Knowing the exact capabilities of your tank
  • Knowing the armor scheme of every tank inside and out.
    • ​Using this knowledge + observing how they are angled to decide if you need to aim for a weakspot
    • Know where the weakspots are to hit them
    • Know whether you can actually pen the weakspots or if you are better off repositioning
  • Knowing which positions on the map are advantageous to take early, and whether your vehicle is fast enough to take those positions
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for long range engagements, and taking those positions if your tank has the camo / accuracy / penetration
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for short range engagements, and taking those positions if you tank has the armor / alpha / acceleration / gun depression
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for an active scout, and whether you tank has the view range and speed to make use of it
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for a passive scout, and whether you tank has the view range and speed to make use of it
  • Knowing the approximate gun capabilities of every tank
    • using this information to shoot people while they are reloading, or take their shells on your armor, or trade HP effectively
  • Paying attention to your minimap
  • Adjusting your play according to what happens on the whole minimap, not just what happens in your immediate vicinity
  • Selecting appropriate skills for your crew members
  • Moving crew appropriately from tank to tank
  • Researching modules in an optimal order

 

I'm sure I'm missing a few, but there you go. Something to add to Luck would be:

  • Not lagging out.

 

my italics seem to be broken by this point, I can't turn them off... weird.



Hauptmann_Ludwig #9 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 04:07

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Mar 02 2017 - 20:46, said:

But it's the 10% skill that really COUNTS !!!

 

Because, over the long run, everyone's "luck" is the same (due to randomness).

 

I have to disagree.  Between MM, RNG, and teams luck plays a BIG factor in this game.  Not even the most skilled player can do much if those three things are working against them.

GeorgePreddy #10 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 04:19

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View PostOberst_Ludwig, on Mar 03 2017 - 00:07, said:

 

I have to disagree.  Between MM, RNG, and teams luck plays a BIG factor in this game.  Not even the most skilled player can do much if those three things are working against them.

 

Losers think this way...  don't be one.

GeorgePreddy #11 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 04:20

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View PostFluffy_Kittens, on Mar 02 2017 - 23:24, said:

the outcome of the games in WoT is NOT about how much skill you have....

its about how many skilless you have on your team.

 

Losers think this way... don't be one.

Scorpiany #12 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 04:28

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View PostNomaeTheJester, on Mar 02 2017 - 18:25, said:

Well you definitely forgot a few in the skill category like:

  • Knowing the exact capabilities of your tank
  • Knowing the armor scheme of every tank inside and out.
    • ​Using this knowledge + observing how they are angled to decide if you need to aim for a weakspot
    • Know where the weakspots are to hit them
    • Know whether you can actually pen the weakspots or if you are better off repositioning
  • Knowing which positions on the map are advantageous to take early, and whether your vehicle is fast enough to take those positions
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for long range engagements, and taking those positions if your tank has the camo / accuracy / penetration
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for short range engagements, and taking those positions if you tank has the armor / alpha / acceleration / gun depression
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for an active scout, and whether you tank has the view range and speed to make use of it
  • Knowing which positions on the map are good for a passive scout, and whether you tank has the view range and speed to make use of it
  • Knowing the approximate gun capabilities of every tank
    • using this information to shoot people while they are reloading, or take their shells on your armor, or trade HP effectively
  • Paying attention to your minimap
  • Adjusting your play according to what happens on the whole minimap, not just what happens in your immediate vicinity
  • Selecting appropriate skills for your crew members
  • Moving crew appropriately from tank to tank
  • Researching modules in an optimal order

 

I'm sure I'm missing a few, but there you go. Something to add to Luck would be:

  • Not lagging out.

 

my italics seem to be broken by this point, I can't turn them off... weird.

 

So you're saying "being able to format text correctly" should also go into the "luck" part? :trollface:

Edited by Scorpiany, Mar 03 2017 - 04:29.


uberdice #13 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 07:31

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It's very natural for people who rely entirely on luck for their success in this game to believe that everyone else plays under the same conditions. When you yourself aren't good enough to even realise how you can influence a game, it's easy, and quite desirable for your ego, to convince yourself that nobody can.

shinglefoot #14 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 11:40

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View Postuberdice, on Mar 03 2017 - 02:31, said:

It's very natural for people who rely entirely on luck for their success in this game to believe that everyone else plays under the same conditions. When you yourself aren't good enough to even realise how you can influence a game, it's easy, and quite desirable for your ego, to convince yourself that nobody can.

 

​     He's right...unfortunately the deluded will double down and scream lies. 

Edited by shinglefoot, Mar 03 2017 - 11:41.


SinsOfWrath #15 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 20:01

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Well lets break down the randomness, RNG, Matchmaking, whatever you wana call anything that you don't directly control in game;

 

Lets say you are in the Scorpion G113, one of my personal favorite tier VIII premium TD's.  What's my best match-up?  I'd say a more or less open map, rather larger map, plenty of bushes, long sight lines, tier VIII matchmaking, no arty, no scouts, and garbage players on the other team driving a bunch of heavy premiums with a nice health pool to farm.

 

You push that "Battle" button and the randomness begins;

 

1.  What map am I about to land in?

2.  Whats the tank composition on each team?  Hopefully this will be something fixed in the near future.

3.  Where will I match up in the tier game?

4.  How skilled is the player base (for us XVM users)?

 

Skill has an overall tell tale for the outcome of the game.  However I've seen extremely strong players in top heavies land in open maps with three arty on the enemy team and they simply couldn't find proper cover and stay relevant in the match. 

 

Other random things once in battle you can't control;

 

5.  Where will my round land? 

6.  How much damage will I do?  Don't you just hate leaving the enemy on 1 HP!

7.  What will the enemy do?  Although not part of the games mechanics, I've seen games take incredible twists because player do the most random and unexpected things.  Funny enough its usually from rather unskilled players, essentially catching people completely off guard. 

 

In closing, I agree a lot of this game is out of your control.  However learning as you go will improve your and your teams chances at victory.  So skill does play quite a role.  You may have noticed I did not include if a round will pen or not into the randomness as it really is not.  The penetration numbers for each round is set and it is all up to the angle and location at which you hit the enemy that determines if you pen. 

 



Taggeth #16 Posted Mar 03 2017 - 21:06

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View PostBasilBarfly01, on Mar 02 2017 - 19:35, said:

... the game puts you in with a bunch of thumb sucking, crayon eating, helmet wearing, screen licking, glue sniffing, nerf herding tomatoes who couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.
 

 

Don't have an opinion about your topic but I love that sentence!  lol

Matross #17 Posted Mar 08 2017 - 15:11

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Now for the luck:-

Your get into the game top tier = Play 10's then? I get into top tier matches here and there. Premium Tier 8 tanks only see 9's, and depending on the hour and server you play, you can be top tier.

Your team knows how to cooperate and work together. = they CAN, does not mean THEY WILL. Usually, platoons will. This doesn't mean the ENEMY TEAM KNOWS and WILL cooperate/work together.

The enemy team don't have team work. = Just like your team, they can, and they may not. Look at the minimap, there will always be one or two players who go out and do their OWN thing, usually, light tanks (sometimes, bad heavy players).

The enemy team players are selfish and only want to raise their own score and not interested in capping or defending artillery units when they look like they are being attacked. = Not all the time, this happens to your own team too, which causes them to lose most of the time.

You gun shoots accurately. = Depends on the distance. If you are really far away, most likely, you will miss. There are freak shots, that actually hit, but, the further you are away, the higher the chance of the shell missing the target.

When you hit, you get penetration = Depends, AP and APCR loses penetration value over distance. HEAT, does not. Also, depends on WHERE you hit the tank. Usually, if you're firing at hull down IS-7 or American tank, from more than 3 blocks away with any shell, you will likely miss, or BOUNCE.

Your penetration hits something critical and the enemy vehicle blows up. = Not really, it does happen once in a while however. DO check where modules are on a tank, and memorize them. Usually, if you shoot under the turret of American tanks, you CAN get lucky with a ammo rack, and blow them up. Usually, if you shoot at rears of tanks, you can get an engine fire to start. Test it out, take a buddy and a fast DPM gun, with good pen and test it. Engine fires are 20% ~ 12%.

Enemy shots bounce off your vehicle. = Yes, if you give them the hardest part of your tank to shoot at, literally, the areas with most armor. Also, depends on shell penetration value and angles of the armor. Do check tanksgg

You get a map that's right for your vehicle. = Not all the time, this is why you need to learn how to play your tank to it's strengths and weakness's. Also, platooning helps. I.e. big open map for a Maus or E100, usually doesn't do them any favors. Or... say, a KV-85 on Fiery Salient. It really depends on the map, what tanks you have on your team, and what tanks the enemy has on theirs. 

 

 

Please re-read Doomslinger's post.

 

Learn your tank, learn enemy tanks. I had to do a lot of studying and researching to get better at this game. The information is out there. It's really, not about "luck", although a small portion could be. However, as you get better you depend less and less on luck, more and more on skill, map positioning, map awareness, and game mechanics. Knowledge is POWER!



ColinB #18 Posted Mar 16 2017 - 20:30

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Hi Basil.

I understand what you mean. I'm a bad player who wants to do better. Sometimes there doesn't seem to be a single thing you can do. It is a very bad feeling when you think that you can and should do better, but nothing works.


 

There is some luck involved, but in my newbie view, how you perform is up to your choices in the game. Watching the map, deciding how hard to push (or not), where to go, whom to support. If you always go to B3 to spot, no matter what is happening on the map, and in every tank you own, you won't get a good result very often.


 

What helps me (a little.) Platooning with players better than I am. Helps learn maps and tactics. And XVM, so you can decide who's advice to take. If a player with a 30% win rate and low rating charges down the middle, you can be pretty sure it isn't a good idea to follow. But if a good player has a similar tank as you are driving, shadow them and see what they do.


 

Get really good at a few tanks to learn them well. Play to their strengths. Get the crews trained up. Get modules that will help (gun rammers, camo, etc.) These are things you can do.


 

Look up the tanks that were giving you trouble. Learn where to shoot them, and with what. You'll slowly learn how to take them on.


 

Good luck. (Well, at least when you are on my team, lol.)

Colin



Boghie #19 Posted Mar 19 2017 - 17:10

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Basil,

 

For the most part you are playing the German line - like me.  If you read up on that line you will find that it is difficult to play.  The heavies don't have the armor of the opposition heavies and are best used at second tier (ie. sniping), but not too far from normal heavy land.  The mediums are basically up gunned scouts - dangerous but easily damaged.  And, to me at least, the scouts are good but why is the PzIIIE in the medium line (basic noob mistake on my part).  So, unless you are already a quality player you have to eat a lot of porridge before you can have your pudding.  Many around here recommended the American or Soviet line for us noobs - advice I took and now I think I am a bit better with the Krauts as well...

 

So, you picked a line that required skill before you had it.  Everything looks like luck.

 

Here are some things where skill can overcome bad luck:

 

  • Don't shoot armor you cannot penetrate - spot for the big guns.  That includes targets that you could pen, but are actually too far away to pen.  I got shamed by a TD that was telling me to stop firing uselessly and just spot.  Too bad I could barely watch the mini-map at the time and still can only read that small chat box after my untimely death.  I cannot tell you how many times an experienced player offered good advice that I only read when I'm six feet under.  Maybe someone around here can tell me how to keep the chat up rather than having it appear for a short time only on new messages???
  • Your Kraut tanks generally have good view range.  Don't necessarily close the gap with a peer enemy.  Frustrate him from a distance he cannot see you at.  That PzIVD/H is good at that.  Your VK is very good at that for a heavy.  Your Soviet tanks are blind so they should have flank cover like in a city to avoid the sniping tanks - running around an empty field is just setting up a crop harvest for American turreted tank destroyers.
  • Don't imagine that everything new is awesome.  Some brain surgeons recently took three heavies (excepting mine) to the sniping island in the Mines map.  Did absolutely nothing but provide Win8 food for the enemy.  Luckily the other team did not push me on the hill and, more importantly since I did die mid game, we had some VERY GOOD artillery and turreted TDs that carried the goobers.  If you do something unique than have the skill to pull it off.  Maybe the heavies could have quick capped for a strange win, but they sat in their KV1s and tried to spot and snipe.  If you make a mistake like this and get a bit of grief just apologize and accept the lesson.
  • Finally, if you get an in-game offer to platoon don't necessarily follow that chap into death zones.  I used to be elated when a prettier colored player invited me along.  Maybe he thought my tank complemented his!!!  Maybe he saw me play well in a previous game!!!  Maybe he wants to show me some map regions beneficial to my tank and skill!!!  Or, maybe he is a noob with 92 total games at Tier 5 - and, those games are split among thirty two tanks or something and he just thinks it is fun to play around while spewing rap into my headphones.  Now I generally don't accept unless I can view his stats.

 

I'm a 47% Tomato.  But, I was a 42% Tomato.  I am striving to become an Orange.  To become an Orange I have to change a bit of luck out for skill.  Hope to get there :-}

 



Tedsc #20 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 15:01

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View PostBasilBarfly01, on Mar 03 2017 - 02:35, said:

I have only been playing for a few months on the USA(East) and Asia servers and I have come to the conclusion that this game is 10% skill and 90% luck.

 

This is the reasoning behind my observation:-

Skill:-

Turn on PC

Log into game

Pick a vehicle

Get into game

Shoot something before you are shot.

That's the skillful part.

 

Now for the luck:-

Your get into the game top tier

Your team knows how to cooperate and work together.

The enemy team don't have team work.

The enemy team players are selfish and only want to raise their own score and not interested in capping or defending artillery units when they look like they are being attacked.

You gun shoots accurately.

When you hit, you get penetration

Your penetration hits something critical and the enemy vehicle blows up.

Enemy shots bounce off your vehicle.

You get a map that's right for your vehicle.

 

Did I miss anything?

Now I know you are going to look at my stats and say I am a bad player.  I counter that I am an unlucky player.  If luck had nothing to do with it, then why are there not many people with over 60% score?  Because if you get to good at the game and you are becoming skillful at it, the game puts you in with a bunch of thumb sucking, crayon eating, helmet wearing, screen licking, glue sniffing nerf herding tomatoes who couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

 

So, there is no point in complaining about the idiots on your team.  It just means you are getting to good at the game and they need to balance you out so your score doesn't get to high.

 

Basil

 

The map thing is frustrating.  I have been working through the Russian Tank Reward point mission and it is super annoying how rare urban maps are when you play tanks that almost universally have bad gun depression. Map assignment has nothing to do with skill and is just RNG.





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