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pay to win... fallacy


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Desmios #21 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 20:47

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View PostWangOnTheLoose, on Mar 17 2017 - 19:20, said:

 

Spending money on a game does make it pay to win.  If that was the case all games would be pay to win...... which they are not.

 

Correct, spending money on a game is NOT pay2win.

 

Spending money on a game and then using the benefits to shoot ammo that others who haven't spent $200+ (minimum) can't afford IS Pay2win.



Desmios #22 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 20:51

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View PostPepino1976, on Mar 17 2017 - 18:24, said:

You wrote it exactly as it should be said. Using APCR is a choice anyone can make. All my tanks carry some APCR. Even my ISU-152 carries 2 rounds, just in case.

 

Anyway, it was fun reading this after a game I just played. Tier X game (I was in my ISU-152). One of our heavy Tier IX tanks was complaining that the enemy is shooting nothing but "gold" rounds at him. WTH. He has a Tier IX tank playing in a Tier X game. I don't think he spent enough time in the lower Tiers. sigh...

 

Except for those who cannot afford it, literally.  It is impossible for some people to afford.  Do you live in fairy-tale land where everyone buys yearly premium account time and has atleast one T7/t8 premium tank?


Edited by Desmios, Mar 17 2017 - 20:51.


Markd73 #23 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 21:06

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View PostMarkd73, on Mar 17 2017 - 17:33, said:

Uh oh now you have done it - you used the term Pay 2 win. You will summon the dark lord Frumpster with that title.

 

In all seriousness I really hope he jumps on the thread. He is the greatest unintentional comedian on this forum. 

 

 

 

 

View Postfrumpylumps, on Mar 17 2017 - 18:34, said:

OP if you had any sense you would realize that only wallet warriors are capable of spamming gold every single game.  Because of money, they will never have to use inferior ammo that will ultimately result is lower performance. 

 

Not only that, but some cash exclusive tanks are the best in role.   This is what normal people call "pay2win".  Buying advantages with cash. Pull your head out.

 

Like clockwork.

 

He is becoming more amusing than the game itself.



Desmios #24 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 21:26

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View PostCapPhrases, on Mar 17 2017 - 17:51, said:

people who complain about this game being "pay to win" obviously have never played magic.

 

I've played magic for 19 years.  Magic is pay2win, in the sense, if you want the best deck, you have to pay for it.  But we all know that going in.  WoT was marketed as not pay2win; only pay4convenience.

 

Also, magic has many formats that aren't pay2win, such as drafting formats (my favorite)



SpitYoYoMafia #25 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 22:34

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The game is pay to win, you can literally pay your way to better stats by playing better tanks and also earning more creds to basically permanently spam premium ammo which gives you much higher chances of penetrating your target.

 

It takes an asinine amount of effort and skill to be free to play and you should be using the average to judge whether or not a game is pay to win, not the top 1%. If the average player can't do it then obviously it's not play to win.

 

For example, I'm playing Diablo III right now, pretty much anyone can play this game and get good. But to do so you have to invest a lot of time and effort and get through the grinds. That's play to win. You want to succeed and do better? You must play for it no matter what your skill level is and you can eventually get to the top.

 

World of tanks is not play to win. Try playing without a premium account and see what happens to your creds. You can't use premium consumable anymore either other than the ones that you earn for free. So good luck with that.

 

There's not much more to say about this topic so I won't.

 


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Mar 18 2017 - 01:52.


SpitYoYoMafia #26 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 22:39

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View PostCutthroatlemur, on Mar 17 2017 - 10:35, said:

You don't pay 2 win in WOT, you pay to save time. 

 

that's still paying to win, in that time that person will most likely have worse stats and they if they choose to continue without going back to farm they will suffer

SpitYoYoMafia #27 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 22:45

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View PostWangOnTheLoose, on Mar 17 2017 - 11:20, said:

 

Spending money on a game does make it pay to win.  If that was the case all games would be pay to win...... which they are not.

 

depends on some games you can pay to save time like some mobile games which is still somewhat pay to win but you can reach anyone's level that they spend in cash even if it does take an absurd amount of time like me fighting people who were far above my level in clash royale because I was simply a better player and paid the price for climbing too high, I could either play more and take an eternity and climb higher or pay for it, either way I still climb higher but one is at a much faster rate and either way I still reach my skill cap eventually

 

This game has a totally different layout that revolves around credits which determines the equipment that you will bring into the game and it is extremely obvious that someone that puts money into this game has a clear and cut advantage over those who don't.

 

I don't even know why this is an argument.



Desmios #28 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:07

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 17 2017 - 16:34, said:

The game is pay to win, you can literally pay your way to better stay by playing better tanks and also earning more creds to basically permanently spam premium ammo which gives you much higher chances of penetrating your target.

 

It takes an asinine amount of effort and skill to be free to play and you should be using the average to judge whether or not a game is pay to win, not the top 1%. If the average player can't do it then obviously it's not play to win.

 

For example, I'm playing Diablo III right now, pretty much anyone can play this game and get good. But to do so you have to invest a lot of time and effort and get through the grinds. That's play to win. You want to succeed and do better? You must play for it no matter what your skill level is and you can eventually get to the top.

 

World of tanks is not play to win. Try playing without a premium account and see what happens to your creds. You can't use premium consumable anymore either other than the ones that you earn for free. So good luck with that.

 

There's not much more to say about this topic so I won't.

 

 

QFT

_kumicho_ #29 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:23

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View PostLord_Hiney, on Mar 17 2017 - 19:55, said:

Eh, it is slightly. Because people with a premium account can fire 50% more premium rounds per game, with the same net profit.

That's a little p2w. Doesn't bother me really, but it should be recognized for what it is.

 

not they cant. I dont have 50% more space in my tank when i run premium account. i might be able to play 50% more games with premium rounds with less farming time. but that has no effect during the matches, i have same limit on shells as everyone else.. and therein lies the rub, premium rounds, premium time, or anything else does not give an advantage during a match, no matter how much money i spend. The best they do is shorten the time it takes to farm the silver to pay for everything. nothing more, nothing less. Its pretty straight forward actually.

 



Desmios #30 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:24

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View PostI_poltroon_I, on Mar 17 2017 - 17:23, said:

 

not they cant. I dont have 50% more space in my tank when i run premium account. i might be able to play 50% more games with premium rounds with less farming time. but that has no effect during the matches, i have same limit on shells as everyone else.. and therein lies the rub, premium rounds, premium time, or anything else does not give an advantage during a match, no matter how much money i spend. The best they do is shorten the time it takes to farm the silver to pay for everything. nothing more, nothing less. Its pretty straight forward actually.

 

 

A premium account nets you a minimum of 50% extra credits; without that, you wound't be able to afford to fire APCR.



SwedishEOD #31 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:29

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 17 2017 - 22:34, said:

The game is pay to win, you can literally pay your way to better stay by playing better tanks and also earning more creds to basically permanently spam premium ammo which gives you much higher chances of penetrating your target.

 

It takes an asinine amount of effort and skill to be free to play and you should be using the average to judge whether or not a game is pay to win, not the top 1%. If the average player can't do it then obviously it's not play to win.

 

For example, I'm playing Diablo III right now, pretty much anyone can play this game and get good. But to do so you have to invest a lot of time and effort and get through the grinds. That's play to win. You want to succeed and do better? You must play for it no matter what your skill level is and you can eventually get to the top.

 

World of tanks is not play to win. Try playing without a premium account and see what happens to your creds. You can't use premium consumable anymore either other than the ones that you earn for free. So good luck with that.

 

There's not much more to say about this topic so I won't.

 

 

so good stats are the same thing as winning in this game.....

_kumicho_ #32 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:29

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 17 2017 - 22:34, said:

The game is pay to win, you can literally pay your way to better stay by playing better tanks and also earning more creds to basically permanently spam premium ammo which gives you much higher chances of penetrating your target.

 

It takes an asinine amount of effort and skill to be free to play and you should be using the average to judge whether or not a game is pay to win, not the top 1%. If the average player can't do it then obviously it's not play to win.

 

For example, I'm playing Diablo III right now, pretty much anyone can play this game and get good. But to do so you have to invest a lot of time and effort and get through the grinds. That's play to win. You want to succeed and do better? You must play for it no matter what your skill level is and you can eventually get to the top.

 

World of tanks is not play to win. Try playing without a premium account and see what happens to your creds. You can't use premium consumable anymore either other than the ones that you earn for free. So good luck with that.

 

There's not much more to say about this topic so I won't.

 

 

this is just play ignorance. i rarely use gold rounds and have no problem generating credits. Im FAR from a 1% player, mostly i suck and i still do just fine creating credits. I have to dedicate time to farm credits, but pay to win means that i have a distinct advantage during a match, which isnt true. No matter how many times you say it, it wont be true. It wont be true for the simple fact that each of us has the same opportunity to get everything available in the game, i cannot get anything with money that you cant get with out it. simple. Money shortening the time it takes to do what a free player can do isnt an in game advantage, its a convenience with no in game tangible difference between the two. Gigantic difference.

 

farm and shoot prem rounds, if you're broke, farm longer but net result is the same for both of us, no advantage for either path except time.



Desmios #33 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:36

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View PostI_poltroon_I, on Mar 17 2017 - 17:29, said:

 

this is just play ignorance. i rarely use gold rounds and have no problem generating credits. Im FAR from a 1% player, mostly i suck and i still do just fine creating credits. I have to dedicate time to farm credits, but pay to win means that i have a distinct advantage during a match, which isnt true. No matter how many times you say it, it wont be true. It wont be true for the simple fact that each of us has the same opportunity to get everything available in the game, i cannot get anything with money that you cant get with out it. simple. Money shortening the time it takes to do what a free player can do isnt an in game advantage, its a convenience with no in game tangible difference between the two. Gigantic difference.

 

farm and shoot prem rounds, if you're broke, farm longer but net result is the same for both of us, no advantage for either path except time.

 

Free players cannot move up tank lines AND fire APCR/HEAT.  It is one or the other.

Deathstar_Commander #34 Posted Mar 17 2017 - 23:54

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Most pay to win games have most things available to everyone with in game currency.   Of course even the worst pay to win games have things that take so long to grind out that people call them pay to win (rightfully so)  because the people on top use money to keep competitive.

So let's slowly think about this.  Pay to win games have things available to everyone, but it's the long grind to get those things which makes them pay to win.   World of tanks  operate on THE SAME basis.  You need to grind credits or pay money for premium tanks/premium time or a combination of both depending on the circumstance.    

Now is there some line in which a game becomes pay to win and not pay to win depending on the grind to get things?   Would this game be definitely pay to win gold ammo's price was increased to about 20k a shell.... 50k a shell... 100k a shell?   Only people who throw money at the game could afford it.  So where is this line that makes World of tanks pay to win or not pay to win?  And what about premium consumables... it's the same thing.  You add premium consumables your tank gets better with no disadvantage besides cost.  People who pay enough can run premium consumables and nothing but gold ammo every game.  This gives them an advantage.  That is pay to win.   It doesnt make the player better, it gives them a better tank.

The point is the fact that gold ammo and consumables is available to everyone isn't what makes world of tanks not pay to win/advantage.  It's the cost of it.   And there is no arbitrary line in which a game is or isn't pay to win when you have a model like this.  It is to what DEGREE wot is pay to win.  And wot isn't a blatant offender of pay to win, but you cannot say it isn't pay to win, it's just not as bad as some of the cellphone games you find now a days. 

NinjaMonkeyPrime #35 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:10

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 17 2017 - 21:34, said:

The game is pay to win, you can literally pay your way to better stay by playing better tanks and also earning more creds to basically permanently spam premium ammo which gives you much higher chances of penetrating your target.

 

It takes an asinine amount of effort and skill to be free to play and you should be using the average to judge whether or not a game is pay to win, not the top 1%. If the average player can't do it then obviously it's not play to win.

 

For example, I'm playing Diablo III right now, pretty much anyone can play this game and get good. But to do so you have to invest a lot of time and effort and get through the grinds. That's play to win. You want to succeed and do better? You must play for it no matter what your skill level is and you can eventually get to the top.

 

World of tanks is not play to win. Try playing without a premium account and see what happens to your creds. You can't use premium consumable anymore either other than the ones that you earn for free. So good luck with that.

 

There's not much more to say about this topic so I won't.

 

 

Umm, this all depends on your definition of "get good". 

 

Are you talking WN8 or WR? Well, those can be managed with knowledge of the tech trees. But I think that isn't the real goal of the topic. 

 

Instead if you are talking about "progressing" like the example you cited Diablo, then the concept of p2w is meaningless. If the objective is to finally unlock some tier 10 tank you wanted then your WR or WN8 isn't an issue. You can save time by using gold to save time by using premium ammo or (more likely) doing things like crew retraining. But you can do it the free way and still get to tier 10. 

 

Think I'm crazy? Try this mental exercise. What would you think of a player if WR and WN8 were not visible in the game? You'd probably judge them on which tanks they unlocked and/or how many games they played. And that is basically how most other games are judged - what level have you achieved and what have you unlocked. A player wants to unlock tanks but the entire WR and WN8 rating system makes them focus on something else that really shouldn't matter until they unlock all the tanks they want. 



BigMeatHammer #36 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:14

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View Post_Tsavo, on Mar 17 2017 - 12:40, said:

I can spam gold as I wish and there's not a single thing anyone can do about it.

 

C:

 

Report your GOLD slinging rectum? :trollface:And then play all tonks full premium loadout:teethhappy:

WangOnTheLoose #37 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:14

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View PostDesmios, on Mar 17 2017 - 14:47, said:

 

Correct, spending money on a game is NOT pay2win.

 

Spending money on a game and then using the benefits to shoot ammo that others who haven't spent $200+ (minimum) can't afford IS Pay2win.

 

You left out the part where you dont need to spend $200+ to shoot all the premium ammo you want or need to.  Sort of a big hole in your argument.

_kumicho_ #38 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:15

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View PostDeathstar_Commander, on Mar 17 2017 - 23:54, said:

Most pay to win games have most things available to everyone with in game currency.   Of course even the worst pay to win games have things that take so long to grind out that people call them pay to win (rightfully so)  because the people on top use money to keep competitive.

So let's slowly think about this.  Pay to win games have things available to everyone, but it's the long grind to get those things which makes them pay to win.   World of tanks  operate on THE SAME basis.  You need to grind credits or pay money for premium tanks/premium time or a combination of both depending on the circumstance.    

Now is there some line in which a game becomes pay to win and not pay to win depending on the grind to get things?   Would this game be definitely pay to win gold ammo's price was increased to about 20k a shell.... 50k a shell... 100k a shell?   Only people who throw money at the game could afford it.  So where is this line that makes World of tanks pay to win or not pay to win?  And what about premium consumables... it's the same thing.  You add premium consumables your tank gets better with no disadvantage besides cost.  People who pay enough can run premium consumables and nothing but gold ammo every game.  This gives them an advantage.  That is pay to win.   It doesnt make the player better, it gives them a better tank.

The point is the fact that gold ammo and consumables is available to everyone isn't what makes world of tanks not pay to win/advantage.  It's the cost of it.   And there is no arbitrary line in which a game is or isn't pay to win when you have a model like this.  It is to what DEGREE wot is pay to win.  And wot isn't a blatant offender of pay to win, but you cannot say it isn't pay to win, it's just not as bad as some of the cellphone games you find now a days. 

 

i can say its not pay to win, and ill keep saying it because its provable and true.

BUT, even simpler: If money were the force to 'win' i should be a 4k wn8 unicom with 99%wr.

im not, check my sig... tells everything you need to know about money and its relationship to victories or abilities.

 



WangOnTheLoose #39 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:16

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 17 2017 - 16:45, said:

 

depends on some games you can pay to save time like some mobile games which is still somewhat pay to win but you can reach anyone's level that they spend in cash even if it does take an absurd amount of time like me fighting people who were far above my level in clash royale because I was simply a better player and paid the price for climbing too high, I could either play more and take an eternity and climb higher or pay for it, either way I still climb higher but one is at a much faster rate and either way I still reach my skill cap eventually

 

This game has a totally different layout that revolves around credits which determines the equipment that you will bring into the game and it is extremely obvious that someone that puts money into this game has a clear and cut advantage over those who don't.

 

I don't even know why this is an argument.

 

People argue because saving time by using money isnt the same as paying to win......

BigMeatHammer #40 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:17

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Maybe if I bought the defender I would be in -G-....HAHA you stupid [edited]. We suck. We suck LIKE IT & Live with it.




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