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pay to win... fallacy


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Deathstar_Commander #41 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:21

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View PostI_poltroon_I, on Mar 18 2017 - 00:15, said:

 

i can say its not pay to win, and ill keep saying it because its provable and true.

BUT, even simpler: If money were the force to 'win' i should be a 4k wn8 unicom with 99%wr.

im not, check my sig... tells everything you need to know about money and its relationship to victories or abilities.

 

 

No you miss the point entirely, if you payed less money your stats would be worse.    Paying money doesnt give you a certain benchmark in stats, i hate hearing your argument.

_kumicho_ #42 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:34

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View PostDeathstar_Commander, on Mar 18 2017 - 00:21, said:

 

No you miss the point entirely, if you payed less money your stats would be worse.    Paying money doesnt give you a certain benchmark in stats, i hate hearing your argument.

 

i havent missed the point. you think that my stats are a result of gold. cash. money. when in fact they're a result of my being a bad player, choosing poor locations on maps and shooting heavies in the front. Getting nuked by arty cause i dont know where to hide or how to angle. Getting flanked by meds because i cant figure out how to use terrain to protect me... nothing more. the more money i have doesnt help me drive the tank. that is the point. money doesnt give me better armor or lasers. money doesnt give me anything you dont have. it just saves time. you can hate that my argument doest match yours, say you hate it all you want, but the fact remains, no amount of money will make me better. only time, practice and experience will. 

 

 



8bit_Gamer #43 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 00:53

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I think where this argument breaks down is not in the definition that you provided, thanks foe that, but in the definition of 'Pay 2 Win'. For me it boils downs to a single question....Can you pay real money to gain an advantage over a player that does not?

Will paying real money grant you greater rewards for your time/effort?
Premium Account

Or for more penetration on your shells which results in more credits/experience?
Premium Ammunition  

Or for a tank that performs better than some if it's equal tier counterparts that were earned through grinding?
Patriot/Defender

Or to more quickly circumvent lesser modules on new tanks granting you a more powerful machine?
Gold conversion of free experience

Sure you can do most of those things without paying money. But your investment of time will be MUCH greater.

Before you jump down my throat...I do have a premium account, I do use gold to convert experience and reskill crews, I do use premium ammunition and I do own premium tanks. I however do not ignore the previously listed objective facts.

Pay 2 Win doesn't mean it's the ONLY way to win...but it sure makes it much easier.

SpitYoYoMafia #44 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 01:55

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View PostSwedishEOD, on Mar 17 2017 - 14:29, said:

 

so good stats are the same thing as winning in this game.....

 

Uh, winning is the only stat that matters, 4k wn8 don't mean [edited] if you're only winning 50% of the time. . .

SpitYoYoMafia #45 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 01:56

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View PostI_poltroon_I, on Mar 17 2017 - 14:29, said:

 

this is just play ignorance. i rarely use gold rounds and have no problem generating credits. Im FAR from a 1% player, mostly i suck and i still do just fine creating credits. I have to dedicate time to farm credits, but pay to win means that i have a distinct advantage during a match, which isnt true. No matter how many times you say it, it wont be true. It wont be true for the simple fact that each of us has the same opportunity to get everything available in the game, i cannot get anything with money that you cant get with out it. simple. Money shortening the time it takes to do what a free player can do isnt an in game advantage, its a convenience with no in game tangible difference between the two. Gigantic difference.

 

farm and shoot prem rounds, if you're broke, farm longer but net result is the same for both of us, no advantage for either path except time.

 

You must be joking? Average players can't even maintain T9 and T10 tanks on free accounts. I'm just above average and I even out at T9 not using any premium ammo at all.

 

When was the last time you tried playing on a free account? It's really frustrating and difficult. Not saying that a premium account isn't cheap but still.



SpitYoYoMafia #46 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 02:01

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View PostNinjaMonkeyPrime, on Mar 17 2017 - 15:10, said:

 

Umm, this all depends on your definition of "get good". 

 

Are you talking WN8 or WR? Well, those can be managed with knowledge of the tech trees. But I think that isn't the real goal of the topic. 

 

Instead if you are talking about "progressing" like the example you cited Diablo, then the concept of p2w is meaningless. If the objective is to finally unlock some tier 10 tank you wanted then your WR or WN8 isn't an issue. You can save time by using gold to save time by using premium ammo or (more likely) doing things like crew retraining. But you can do it the free way and still get to tier 10. 

 

Think I'm crazy? Try this mental exercise. What would you think of a player if WR and WN8 were not visible in the game? You'd probably judge them on which tanks they unlocked and/or how many games they played. And that is basically how most other games are judged - what level have you achieved and what have you unlocked. A player wants to unlock tanks but the entire WR and WN8 rating system makes them focus on something else that really shouldn't matter until they unlock all the tanks they want. 

 

I don't understand your point. What does unlocking a tank have to deal with your stats or being able to afford premium items? My point was to speak of what play to win is (which is coincidentally the name of my DIII clan) which revolves around playing to get anywhere and no matter what you do you must play to achieve higher status, while paying gives you higher status right off the bat.

 

If you took two players of equal skill, say around a 1500 wn8 with a 52-53% WR and one suddenly started putting money into the game while the other didn't, the one putting money into the game would most likely see a rise in his stats from being able to afford premium items more so than the other person and even having better tanks to use as many pref tanks can severely inflate your stats especially when you're actually good at the game.



SwedishEOD #47 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 02:02

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 18 2017 - 01:56, said:

 

You must be joking? Average players can't even maintain T9 and T10 tanks on free accounts. I'm just above average and I even out at T9 not using any premium ammo at all.

 

When was the last time you tried playing on a free account? It's really frustrating and difficult. Not saying that a premium account isn't cheap but still.

 

The game is setup to be like that , you are not supposed to be playing higher tiers continously without premium unless you are very good at it , by design so people would populate the lower tiers..... been like that from the start.

 

Nothing force "you" to play tier 10s , tier 10 is not some end goal or the end-game everyone seems to think it is, it's perfectly fine to stay in lower tiers and play as much as you want, if you cant afford playing higher tiers on a free account and you cant afford paying for premium why even bother trying for the higher tiers? Play low tiers and enjoy the game for free......



SpitYoYoMafia #48 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 02:02

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View PostWangOnTheLoose, on Mar 17 2017 - 15:16, said:

 

People argue because saving time by using money isnt the same as paying to win......

 

So question, if you never put any money into this game at all from the moment that you started playing this game, what would your overall and recent stats look like right now?

SpitYoYoMafia #49 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 02:04

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View PostSwedishEOD, on Mar 17 2017 - 17:02, said:

 

The game is setup to be like that , you are not supposed to be playing higher tiers continously without premium unless you are very good at it , by design so people would populate the lower tiers..... been like that from the start.

 

Nothing force "you" to play tier 10s , tier 10 is not some end goal or the end-game everyone seems to think it is, it's perfectly fine to stay in lower tiers and play as much as you want, if you cant afford playing higher tiers on a free account and you cant afford paying for premium why even bother trying for the higher tiers? Play low tiers and enjoy the game for free......

 

It's also set up that way so that you buy a premium account to sustain it. Also you can't use premium item if the best you can do is break even at the tier.Using food as a consumable may have some draw backs but it also has massive benefits for tanks that rely on accuracy and DPM and it's a clear difference between being able to afford it and not being able to afford it. I break even with food using a premium account at T9, T10 is extremely hard to break even at, without a premium account it's just a straight up credit sink.

Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Mar 18 2017 - 02:04.


SwedishEOD #50 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 02:10

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 18 2017 - 02:04, said:

 

It's also set up that way so that you buy a premium account to sustain it. Also you can't use premium item if the best you can do is break even at the tier.Using food as a consumable may have some draw backs but it also has massive benefits for tanks that rely on accuracy and DPM and it's a clear difference between being able to afford it and not being able to afford it. 

 

It is setup like that to make you buy premium if you want to play higher tiers , yes.

If you cant play tier 5-7 and break even on a standard account , then maybe you should try even lower tiers....

What I am getting at is that almost everyone is so dead set on getting to higher tiers , and for what reason? Better gameplay? Barely lately... Better economy? Never has been.... And since WG took a huge shat on CWs there are really no reason to grind 10s at all.

And premium items are not a must , played my first 20-25k battles and never used premium items or ammo... 

And running food in anything but 10s is just a waste if you ask me..... sure if you have the creds to spend go for it , but I wouldn't...



SpitYoYoMafia #51 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 14:50

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View PostSwedishEOD, on Mar 17 2017 - 17:10, said:

 

It is setup like that to make you buy premium if you want to play higher tiers , yes.

If you cant play tier 5-7 and break even on a standard account , then maybe you should try even lower tiers....

What I am getting at is that almost everyone is so dead set on getting to higher tiers , and for what reason? Better gameplay? Barely lately... Better economy? Never has been.... And since WG took a huge shat on CWs there are really no reason to grind 10s at all.

And premium items are not a must , played my first 20-25k battles and never used premium items or ammo... 

And running food in anything but 10s is just a waste if you ask me..... sure if you have the creds to spend go for it , but I wouldn't...

 

So it's a waste when using it on a tank that either does not catch on fire or does not want to be shot at in the first place? It's a 10% boost to everything, so if I'm not taking fire why not increase everything about my tank to make it more effective?

 

I also already said that my cap is T9.


Edited by SpitYoYoMafia, Mar 18 2017 - 14:51.


SwedishEOD #52 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 14:55

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View PostSpitYoYoMafia, on Mar 18 2017 - 14:50, said:

 

So it's a waste when using it on a tank that either does not catch on fire or does not want to be shot at in the first place? It's a 10% boost to everything, so if I'm not taking fire why not increase everything about my tank to make it more effective?

 

I also already said that my cap is T9.

 

Because you can't afford it...see? This is how you prioritize , do I want that last few % of almost not noticeable improvement or do I want to make more creds.... It's a choice you have to make just as with premium ammo.....

manimal79 #53 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 14:58

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View Postriff_, on Mar 17 2017 - 09:42, said:

Play Better to Win.
 
 

 

^

 

OP has better than average overall winrate and still complaining about rigged games. I always thought it was generally for those with below 50% winrates that would have that tinfoil hat mentality.



Snow_white_1 #54 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 15:23

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my personal experience: i have premium account, i shoot apcr, i have prem vehicles, i have gold... does it help? yes, does it make me win more? i doubt it. 

i have a friend that i platoon a lot with him... he never put a dime into the game, he has 2200+ wn8 and very good stats, he shoots apcr only when he needs, he has several prem vehicles that he won on tournaments.

he plays tier 10 very often without prem account. he is better than me, and he tells me im crazy about spending money on wot. so... that tells me that you can be good without paying a single dollar. because he is a very good player.

he has like 15k battles and like 5 tier 10... with good stats 3 marked guns without shooting gold.

my case, gold makes you lazy!



frumpylumps #55 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 16:43

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View PostI_poltroon_I, on Mar 18 2017 - 00:34, said:

no amount of money will make me better. only time, practice and experience will. 

 

 

 

guess what?  Everyone already knows that.  But technically you are wrong since you could you could hire someone to teach you.

 

What you seem to have failed to comprehend is that money does buy you advantages, and that is ultimately reflected in your stats.  How can you compare someone who starts off spamming gold and food every game and 100% crews vs a player who does not pay and has to start with inferior crews and use inferior ammo?

 

When money buys you advantages, that is what we call pay2win.   Did you really not get that?


Edited by frumpylumps, Mar 18 2017 - 16:46.


SwedishEOD #56 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 17:07

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Mar 18 2017 - 16:43, said:

 

guess what?  Everyone already knows that.  But technically you are wrong since you could you could hire someone to teach you.

 

What you seem to have failed to comprehend is that money does buy you advantages, and that is ultimately reflected in your stats.  How can you compare someone who starts off spamming gold and food every game and 100% crews vs a player who does not pay and has to start with inferior crews and use inferior ammo?

 

When money buys you advantages, that is what we call pay2win.   Did you really not get that?

 

Does that buy him wins in the games? Or is it his knowledge of gamemechanics and skill and experience that makes him win?

And notice I said win not get good stats , bc good stats are not winning , only stat that matters in a pay2win discussion is WR% nothing else.

There are people that has spent thousands of dollars on this and still have just as bad stats as a Bot, why is that if you can buy wins?

No matter how much money you spend on this game , if you are bad at it you will get bad stats, easy as that.

 

It takes a decent player no time at all to get a crew up to 100% from 75% , no gold invested in that. Premium tanks can be earned for free in many of the missions these days, use those for earning creds.

So what are you actually buying with money that you can't earn for free ingame? Time , thats all you save.....

 



Mudman24 #57 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 17:09

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I could get out the credit card and instantly increase my winrate and go to purple recent easily. Does it guarantee wins? No, but I could increase my rate just by throwing cash at the game.  

RingZero #58 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 17:17

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View PostMudman24, on Mar 18 2017 - 08:09, said:

I could get out the credit card and instantly increase my winrate and go to purple recent easily. Does it guarantee wins? No, but I could increase my rate just by throwing cash at the game.

 

I'm genuinely curious, what could you possibly buy that would guarantee your statistics to increase your last 1000 games played into purple territory?



RingZero #59 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 17:23

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View PostSwedishEOD, on Mar 18 2017 - 05:55, said:

Because you can't afford it...see? This is how you prioritize , do I want that last few % of almost not noticeable improvement or do I want to make more creds.... It's a choice you have to make just as with premium ammo.....

 

Well said.  There's very few tanks that you "need" premium food.  The only tank that I can think of off the top of my head is the STB.  

 

Aside from when I get into CW setup, I've removed food from most of my tanks cause I'm trying to save up money to buy more tanks and the overall performance dip in pubs isn't very noticeable.



Mudman24 #60 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 17:24

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View PostRingZero, on Mar 18 2017 - 10:17, said:

 

I'm genuinely curious, what could you possibly buy that would guarantee your statistics to increase your last 1000 games played into purple territory?

There are several tanks in my garage that are in the teal/blue range that I am pretty sure I could bump up with the use of premium consumables and premium ammo. A good example would be my T54 which I don't use more than a few premium rounds in ATM. Sitting at 58% just over 2k wn8, I'm pretty sure that adding a premium loadout would get me there with the added pen and reload. 

 

I'm just trying to make the point that you can slightly increase stats and winrate with the simple addition of premium items, which you really can't afford to do on a standard account and sustain it.  It doesn't make the game pay2win imo but it definitely give the advantage. 






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