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Shooting Errors (What the hell WG/RNG)


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Poll: How do you feel? (10 members have cast votes)

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    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

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  3. I understand, but you need to get over it. (3 votes [30.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

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AzsharasFist #1 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 10:12

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I took a snapshot  (moving the replays frame by frame to watch the projectiles)  of 8 tanks shooting their guns in a training room, and put the snapshot into a 3d Render Program. and was amazed (sort of). These 8 tanks, consisting of 2 TDs (1 being a Dicker Max, and the other being a hellcat), 2 Meds (1 being a Sup. Persh. and the other a Panther 2), 2 heavies (1 ST-I/1, and a M103), 2 LTs (a Type 64, and a 1390). So with my complete rendering of the basic models of said tanks and the projectile path of 2-4 shots (the most inaccurate i could get), i found that these inaccurate shells, exiting the cannon less than half way through the chamber at roughly 13.6* to 37.2*. So i guess my question is... What moron in Wargaming said "hey lets build a program that throw shells out of the barrel of a tank at unreasonable degrees so that they completely miss. Lets make players hate RNG so bad, that they go and play that bastardly game WarTh***** (i value the results of this post, so i dare not mention the full name of referred game. in many cases if you mention referred game, the post is removed, or the person is banned from the forums for a period of time.) if they want to see shells realistically leave the cannon." Take from this what you will dear Reader, i only desire to figure out what is going through the hearts and minds of the people up in WG laughing at us simple folk while we get frustrated with unrealistic shell trajectory. 

SparkyGT #2 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 10:44

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every tank in this game comes equipped with a blunderbuss, or a worn out shotgun, so basically you are shooting a 100 mm shell down a 200 mm loose barrel, they go all over the place. its stupid as can be, but a game  for LOLz

GeorgePreddy #3 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 13:25

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View PostAzshara, on Mar 18 2017 - 06:12, said:

I took a snapshot  (moving the replays frame by frame to watch the projectiles)  of 8 tanks shooting their guns in a training room, and put the snapshot into a 3d Render Program. and was amazed (sort of). These 8 tanks, consisting of 2 TDs (1 being a Dicker Max, and the other being a hellcat), 2 Meds (1 being a Sup. Persh. and the other a Panther 2), 2 heavies (1 ST-I/1, and a M103), 2 LTs (a Type 64, and a 1390). So with my complete rendering of the basic models of said tanks and the projectile path of 2-4 shots (the most inaccurate i could get), i found that these inaccurate shells, exiting the cannon less than half way through the chamber at roughly 13.6* to 37.2*. So i guess my question is... What moron in Wargaming said "hey lets build a program that throw shells out of the barrel of a tank at unreasonable degrees so that they completely miss. Lets make players hate RNG so bad, that they go and play that bastardly game WarTh***** (i value the results of this post, so i dare not mention the full name of referred game. in many cases if you mention referred game, the post is removed, or the person is banned from the forums for a period of time.) if they want to see shells realistically leave the cannon." Take from this what you will dear Reader, i only desire to figure out what is going through the hearts and minds of the people up in WG laughing at us simple folk while we get frustrated with unrealistic shell trajectory. 

 

What you demonstrated above really means nothing. You are simply trying to dramatize your point of hating on dispersion RNG.

 

RNG in the form of gun dispersion is necessary to make the game more interesting and to make it better at simulating the different accuracy levels of different types of guns.

 

Perfect laser accuracy would be wrong, boring and totally unrealistic and would remove one method of balancing tanks.

 

You can argue the level of inaccuracy or the pattern of dispersion within the aim circle, but there's really no argument for having some moderate amount of gun dispersion RNG. 



Lycan_Knight #4 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 14:39

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Mar 18 2017 - 07:25, said:

 

What you demonstrated above really means nothing. You are simply trying to dramatize your point of hating on dispersion RNG.

 

RNG in the form of gun dispersion is necessary to make the game more interesting and to make it better at simulating the different accuracy levels of different types of guns.

 

Perfect laser accuracy would be wrong, boring and totally unrealistic and would remove one method of balancing tanks.

 

You can argue the level of inaccuracy or the pattern of dispersion within the aim circle, but there's really no argument for having some moderate amount of gun dispersion RNG. 

 

^ this is a guy who doesn't give two ****s about the game, probably tends to simply go into battle and kill (or die) and move on.

Particularly i'd agree with you, but being an alpha tester for 7 years i'm strongly pushed to disagree with you....

RNG dispersion is fine if it's in realistic values to the shell being fired from the barrel .... having the shell fire, and not 10 meters out of the barrel start going off to see "grandma's house" is utterly pointless. This isn't a "moderate" amount of dispersion. this is a conical spread with a VERY obtuse exit angle. (sometimes even larger than the firing arc in the case of artillery) 

 

 

When i see a shell leave a barrel and lose its accuracy halfway through the flight path that's one thing... shell velocity, "spiral" (rifled barrel) or defects in the shell (smooth-bore barrel) are common...

But when i see a shell leaving the barrel pretty much SIDEWAYS right from the start i draw the line. This isn't fun, and this isn't a "method to balance tanks". You already have high and low damage potentials, both when bouncing AND when penetrating a target tank based on dozens of calculations which aren't needed in such complexity. There's no reason for someone who takes 30+ seconds to aim a shot *MISS A STATIONARY TARGET* by 10-50 meters (artillery) or have it shoot way off to the side or drop LOW (TD/Heavy/Medium) compared to the target. If they want to use RNG that's one thing. But they should NOT use RNG to depict a horizontal projectile's EXIT point.

The shell should fire straight from the barrel, AND THEN start to lose its angle of trajectory in an "rng" mechanic. THAT is what is being stated here.


Edited by Lycan_Knight, Mar 18 2017 - 14:41.


ArmorStorm #5 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 18:50

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View PostLycan_Knight, on Mar 18 2017 - 07:39, said:

 

^ this is a guy who doesn't give two ****s about the game, probably tends to simply go into battle and kill (or die) and move on.

Particularly i'd agree with you, but being an alpha tester for 7 years i'm strongly pushed to disagree with you....

RNG dispersion is fine if it's in realistic values to the shell being fired from the barrel .... having the shell fire, and not 10 meters out of the barrel start going off to see "grandma's house" is utterly pointless. This isn't a "moderate" amount of dispersion. this is a conical spread with a VERY obtuse exit angle. (sometimes even larger than the firing arc in the case of artillery) 

 

 

When i see a shell leave a barrel and lose its accuracy halfway through the flight path that's one thing... shell velocity, "spiral" (rifled barrel) or defects in the shell (smooth-bore barrel) are common...

But when i see a shell leaving the barrel pretty much SIDEWAYS right from the start i draw the line. This isn't fun, and this isn't a "method to balance tanks". You already have high and low damage potentials, both when bouncing AND when penetrating a target tank based on dozens of calculations which aren't needed in such complexity. There's no reason for someone who takes 30+ seconds to aim a shot *MISS A STATIONARY TARGET* by 10-50 meters (artillery) or have it shoot way off to the side or drop LOW (TD/Heavy/Medium) compared to the target. If they want to use RNG that's one thing. But they should NOT use RNG to depict a horizontal projectile's EXIT point.

The shell should fire straight from the barrel, AND THEN start to lose its angle of trajectory in an "rng" mechanic. THAT is what is being stated here.

 

Yeah, I bet there are hundreds of guys who don't care about winning with his stats.  Are you completely mental or something?  The exit point for the shell is the turret, not the end of the barrel so that is where the trajectory and RNG begins.  If they did use the end of the barrel it would change nothing, that extra 10 feet of distance from the turret is meaningless when you are shooting at 100-300 meters.  Also, its an arcade game not a simulator and if you have ever seen a shot "leave the barrel sideways" it is because this is an online game, lag and packet loss are simply part of online gaming.

 

 



ArmorStorm #6 Posted Mar 18 2017 - 18:59

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View PostSparkyGT, on Mar 18 2017 - 03:44, said:

every tank in this game comes equipped with a blunderbuss, or a worn out shotgun, so basically you are shooting a 100 mm shell down a 200 mm loose barrel, they go all over the place. its stupid as can be, but a game  for LOLz

 

I have read that before the modern tanks with computer ranging and such were introduced tankers were claiming around a 10% hit rate on normal combat ranges and 5% or so on long-range shots.  Makes our RNG look pretty good if that is true.

Lycan_Knight #7 Posted Mar 19 2017 - 03:49

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View PostArmorStorm, on Mar 18 2017 - 12:50, said:

 

Yeah, I bet there are hundreds of guys who don't care about winning with his stats.  Are you completely mental or something?  The exit point for the shell is the turret, not the end of the barrel so that is where the trajectory and RNG begins.  If they did use the end of the barrel it would change nothing, that extra 10 feet of distance from the turret is meaningless when you are shooting at 100-300 meters.  Also, its an arcade game not a simulator and if you have ever seen a shot "leave the barrel sideways" it is because this is an online game, lag and packet loss are simply part of online gaming.

 

 


 

I had to bold these parts... just wow. :facepalm:

I'm sorry but your lack of tank anatomy, firearm basics and, specifically, in understanding where the shell leaves directional assistance (barrel).... along with making excuses of packet loss and lag when individuals running 20 and less ping (which even if it were ping, this wouldn't explain the shell deviation when using the SERVER SIDE targeting system, which is what i've done since the days it was activated by pressing the "=" key on the keyboard!)... it just... How do you even FUNCTION with that kind of I.Q!?

This isn't packet loss, this isn't lag, and this isn't about being an arcade game. 

Let's straighten out some things here and give you a lesson in how a gun works, more specifically a TANK CANNON:
Barrels are used to support gas control and shell velocity while keeping a shell on path to the target until leaving it. The TURRET is used to swivel the gun, no matter how hard you try to say otherwise. This "swivel" action can be full 360 or a simple "gun mantle" attachment which has a finite range of motion. The turret is where the gun's firing chamber is kept (known as a "Breech" ) This Fires the Shell and Dispenses the Used Casing Back into the Tank for Stowage or Removal, The breech, in turn, launches the projectile/ammo down the barrel along with all of the expended energy, now in the form of extremely hot gasses. The barrel then gives the projectile SPIN (rifled barrel), or lobs the shell like a mortar (smooth-bore barrel) towards a target.

The BARREL is used for a few things. To speed up the projectile being fired, aim the projectile in the correct direction, and control gas dispersion upward and away from the vehicle firing the weapon.

This is also why later tanks were given Weapon Stabilization Systems to keep barrels fairly stable during mobile combat (this was specifically helpful in light tanks and main-battle tanks)... This is besides the point though.

 

 

The shell holds the firing arc on an almost perfectly flat arc for several hundred meters before friction from the air and loss of rotational velocity (spin) take effect. (This is usually after about 50-150 meters depending on the gun. This is also when severe drop in target penetration begins to take effect, and why reticles tend to have multiple lines below the original ones, They're to account for distance drop (the bottom set of lines) and vehicle size (left and right numbers/lines) to help gauge tank speed and confirm distances. But we're focused on those bottom numbers specifically in this situation.)

 

They then gradually degrade towards the ground. This means that shells fired by artillery at tanks 10-30 meters ahead SHOULD NOT BE DROPPING SHORT OR OVERSHOOTING THE TARGET. It also means that HE shells (specifically) should not be launched upward out of the barrel less than 5 feet away from the gun in an arc that betrays the barrel's direction. Actually it should be the BARREL aiming up a bit more to support the lob needed for HE to be effectively launched, even if it's a small amount. Instead they simply changed the arc of the shell. 

 

This also means that tank destroyers and heavy tanks with HIGH VELOCITY GUNS (long range oriented weapons)  SHOULD NOT be hitting several feet to the left, right, or below the desired location of penetration AT LEAST until the 100 meter mark due to alterations in air friction. Arcade game or not.

 

 

As for the people who "don't care about winning with their stats" (and yes i know that's sarcasm.) this kind of adjustment would benefit people who aim, while crippling those who simply right-click and fire. In turn games would *hopefully* start to push towards more skill-based cannon-fire... As it is right now? You simply load up a premium round, right click a target, and simply "fire & forget" because the shell trajectory is bollocks... 

I'm not going to keep arguing because it'd be fruitless, especially at this time of night. 

 

 

View PostArmorStorm, on Mar 18 2017 - 12:59, said:

 

I have read that before the modern tanks with computer ranging and such were introduced tankers were claiming around a 10% hit rate on normal combat ranges and 5% or so on long-range shots.  Makes our RNG look pretty good if that is true.



Target likeliness of being destroyed upon successful hits were uncommon due to the drop in velocity which in turn decreased the splash radius of debris and explosive ordinance, the High Explosive ordinance was usually considered a "successful hit" when it was able to disable or otherwise render the target useless and in turn forced crew out. It was also considered a successful hit if they managed to cause shell shock in targets enough to force them into either surrendering or revealing their locations (general ordinance barrage) In general though you're fairly correct. early era long range artillery were fairly.... inaccurate when used alone. This is why they were usually used in battalions of up to 30 and scattered in a wide pattern to control large target areas rather than a specified small target, unless otherwise requested by soldiers in their range. :)


Edited by Lycan_Knight, Mar 22 2017 - 12:53.





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