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Why should I give a 5-kill guy a top gun?


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_Laserguided_ #401 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 03:13

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View Post_Juris, on Aug 22 2017 - 15:43, said:

 

 

But you continually make this some huge moral lesson by saying things like "my parents told me no and you don't always get what you want" and "not giving someone something <I believe> they didn't earn is a positive thing."  If you want to act like you're a better person than others because you're going to use tanks to teach them some great moral lesson about life that you believe they haven't learned on the evidence of one in-game request that offends your sensibilities, then yes, i'll consider you a jerk for not helping when a polite, reasonable request to collect a final kill for an epic medal is made.  You're the one claiming that they almost always rage at you in chat when you refuse, so you're the one making the case that the response of the person matters.  Are you saying you REALLY can't understand why they'd be mad if they've really been working hard all game, not only getting kills but doing damage, spotting enemies and establishing vision control, and some guy who's been sitting in the corner doing nothing snags the last kill, or that they have literally no justification for it in that case?

 

You're right, there aren't any red players in VILIN.  However, there are lots of players who would happily hold a shot for a few seconds to let a platoonmate or teammate collect a medal.  We also don't care how many Top Guns, Radley Walters, and Pools Medals you have when you apply.  The flipside of that is if it is meaningful to the person requesting, since I don't care about it I have no problem honoring their request.

 

A person standing on their principles doesn't necessarily equate to there being a lesson. Like yourself, I am offering my opinion on a forum. I mentioned I wouldn't object in game. In other words, I wouldn't involve myself in yours and or anyone else choice to grant the medal to whomever.  You speak of crusades, and it seems you are on one yourself.  It's clear you have something you are standing upon and we don't agree. You mention you didn't understand why so I gave some insight, which then becomes something you toss back to me. Go figure.

 

 Frankly there isn't all that much epic in a medal that is achieved because people sandbagged. 

 

I don't cater to the request on principle. The typical response doesn't matter, so no, the response isn't a factor, it's simply an example of why I don't think it's a good idea to grant people things they didn't earn. 

 

I understand WHY they are upset... They are used to getting their way and when it doesn't happen they get upset.  Btw...   I love your scenario(s). As if the guy "snagging" the last kill is some degenerate for playing the game. 

 

Is your benevolence with things like Top Guns penance for something?

 



_Laserguided_ #402 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 03:14

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View PostSgt__Guffy, on Aug 22 2017 - 18:02, said:

 

Helping team mates, or cooperation to help your team win is completely different from allowing some spoilt brat get a medal. I say "spoilt brat," because any mature player worthy of a medal would look to earn it and the issue would not be aired in battle chat. To put the matter in perspective, I played a encounter game on Karelia and sure enough a player wanted a sixth kill. We were 14-9 up. We lost the game. The enemy player knew the map well and was a good player. As usual, they were underestimated and by giving way to this player who had five kills and not taking their shots they cost the team the game. You play the game to win, not cow tow to one particular players whims. If they want medals so badly then let them play platoon and let the platoon assist with the medal grabbing, don't expect a team to cooperate, why should they. Before the sanctimonious amongst us state the player who got the five kills was the game winner, using my example, I, in fact, did more damage that he did and was I destroyed earlier in the battle!  The term used, I believe, is kill stealer. I don't get annoyed now, there is no point. The beautiful irony was the enemy player, who did play well, got seven kills!!

 

 

If the enemy presents a target to me and I have the shot. I will take it, every time. That is my job! That is everyone's job!! 

 

If praise is due to a player who has played well, irrespective whether it is kills, damage, both, or they clearly played well, then I will congratulate them in the battle chat, or if I do not have time in the battle to do that, I will message them after the battle. That includes a message to an enemy player if they played well.

 

Have fun.

 

Guffy.

 

 

Well stated...

LpBronco #403 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 03:43

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View Post_Juris, on Aug 22 2017 - 15:44, said:

 

I guess I don't understand why you don't think it's a good idea.  You can play however you want, including not helping out teammates for no reason.  I'm just curious about your reasoning.  Do you apply this to the light tank assistance damage missions as well?  Those missions literally depend on your team being willing to help you accomplish your mission by doing damage to things you spot/track.  Lots of things in this game depend on helping out your teammates.  This is another one that, occasionally, does (whether implicitly or explicitly).  Why does verbalizing the request make such a difference?

 

As for how the person behaves after you ask, really, who cares?  It's a video game, people rage for all sorts of reasons, ranging from silly to completely brainless.  If they want to rage about you declining their request, well, guess that makes your refusal look more justified.  If they don't rage, you look like a jerk for being on a bizarre ethical/moral crusade in a video game about pixel tanks.  Either way, it makes no difference.

 

Don't think the mission quests are equivalent to the request for a 6th kill but I'd be curious to hear his rationale for this one, too.

 

Actually, changed my typical positioning more than once because someone needed help with a mission and occasionally had someone help me with one of mine.



_Juris #404 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 03:54

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View Post_Laserguided_, on Aug 22 2017 - 21:13, said:

A person standing on their principles doesn't necessarily equate to there being a lesson. Like yourself, I am offering my opinion on a forum. I mentioned I wouldn't object in game. In other words, I wouldn't involve myself in yours and or anyone else choice to grant the medal to whomever.  You speak of crusades, and it seems you are on one yourself.  It's clear you have something you are standing upon and we don't agree. You mention you didn't understand why so I gave some insight, which then becomes something you toss back to me. Go figure.

 

 Frankly there isn't all that much epic in a medal that is achieved because people sandbagged. 

 

I don't cater to the request on principle. The typical response doesn't matter, so no, the response isn't a factor, it's simply an example of why I don't think it's a good idea to grant people things they didn't earn. 

 

I understand WHY they are upset... They are used to getting their way and when it doesn't happen they get upset.  Btw...   I love your scenario(s). As if the guy "snagging" the last kill is some degenerate for playing the game. 

 

Is your benevolence with things like Top Guns penance for something?

 

Bolded and underlined part is the part that makes no sense to me.  You have literally no evidence to support this position (that they are used to getting their way), and the alternate one I suggested (some asking politely, as a platoonmate might request) is just as probable.

 

And what's so weird about the scenario?  Surely you've played games where there's some guy that's camped A1 the entire time, and he manages to grab the last kill.  Did he "earn" that kill?  What if the person asking you to hold your shot for a few seconds was a clanmate?  Platoonmate?  Still telling them to get lost?  I guess what I don't understand is you seem to feel that there's some cosmic justice involved here, except it has nothing to do with skill level or contribution to the match.  Are you saying something different?  What exactly do you mean by "earned?"

 

My benevolence is purely that when someone asks me for something politely which it is within my power to grant, and which costs me nothing, I see no good reason to say no.  As far as I can tell, your position is that you say "no" unless you see a good reason to say "yes."  If so, that's fine - it's just an odd strategy for a cooperative game.  Even from a game theory perspective, it's better to cooperate until you know the other side will defect.


Edited by _Juris, Aug 23 2017 - 03:57.


LpBronco #405 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 04:21

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Even 

View Post_Juris, on Aug 22 2017 - 21:54, said:

 Even from a game theory perspective, it's better to cooperate until you know the other side will defect.

 

Even then the advantage is still on continued cooperation.



_Laserguided_ #406 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 04:40

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View Post_Juris, on Aug 22 2017 - 18:54, said:

 

Bolded and underlined part is the part that makes no sense to me.  You have literally no evidence to support this position (that they are used to getting their way), and the alternate one I suggested (some asking politely, as a platoonmate might request) is just as probable.

 

And what's so weird about the scenario?  Surely you've played games where there's some guy that's camped A1 the entire time, and he manages to grab the last kill.  Did he "earn" that kill?  What if the person asking you to hold your shot for a few seconds was a clanmate?  Platoonmate?  Still telling them to get lost?  I guess what I don't understand is you seem to feel that there's some cosmic justice involved here, except it has nothing to do with skill level or contribution to the match.  Are you saying something different?  What exactly do you mean by "earned?"

 

My benevolence is purely that when someone asks me for something politely which it is within my power to grant, and which costs me nothing, I see no good reason to say no.  As far as I can tell, your position is that you say "no" unless you see a good reason to say "yes."  If so, that's fine - it's just an odd strategy for a cooperative game.  Even from a game theory perspective, it's better to cooperate until you know the other side will defect.

 

It's my opinion.. Yours differs. So offer evidence my opinion has no merit. I don't agree with your opinion, that you have offered no evidence of. 

 

Nothing weird, it's simply constructed to support your idea it's OK to sandbag and grant people the means to achieve something they didn't actually earn. Which I said I wouldn't mention in game if it took place. Which seems not to be good enough for you.  Cosmic justice? Says the guy who is bent on making me out to be some "jerk" for simply not seeing something your way. Smh...

 

Earned... If a player must ask others to stop playing the game to achieve something it's not earned. It's like requesting the ball being put on a tee and pretending it's the same has a pitched ball when you hit it. It's not...

 

Your benevolence is at your discretion and has limits. Same here... Just because we differ where the limits are doesn't make right and the other wrong. 

 

I have posted my position clear and more than once on the circumstances surrounding a player requesting that others stop playing the game in order to achieve a medal. I will copy and paste something I responded to you with prior...

 

I don't cater to the request on principle. The typical response doesn't matter, so no, the response isn't a factor, it's simply an example of why I don't think it's a good idea to grant people things they didn't earn. 

 

I never mentioned needing a good reason. From the start I have said I think giving people things they didn't earn is a positive thing. I have been very consistent on that point even before you responded to me.

 

I don't see a player asking me to stop playing so he or she can achieve something they otherwise would not as the same as a someone asking for help with a mission, which would entail me playing the game, not suspending my game to allow something to happen. While it's your prerogative to believe there is no discernible difference between those two things, but I do. 



_Juris #407 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 15:26

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I will happily retract my conditional (and, if you read carefully, you will see that it was, in fact conditional) "jerk" statement - not saying you're a jerk, and, like I said, you are completely free to play the game however you want (and, as long as you didn't say something in chat, I probably wouldn't notice or care if you "took" a last kill after some other teammate had asked the team if he could have it).  Would you likewise be willing to refrain from insinuating that your position is somehow morally superior?  Or would that be "giving me something that I haven't earned?"  ;)

 

I'm genuinely, actually curious about how far your principle goes.  For example, let's consider an exemplary set of such requests:

1. Random teammate who is most of the way across the map asks to collect the last arty kill.
2. Random teammate asks you to hold a shot until his reload finishes and he can collect a top gun.  Assume that this will require you "stop" playing for ~10 seconds max, he's already in position to take the shot, and you're the only teammate other than him who will have the opportunity to take the kill before he can.
3. Clanmate in the same random battle (but not in platoon) asks you to hold a shot so he can collect a Radley-Walters'/Pool's Medal.  Same assumptions as #2.
4. Clanmate in the same random battle (but not in platoon) asks you to refrain from killing the last arty so he can finish a light tank mission requiring him to spot and damage 3 arty.  Same assumptions as #2.
5. Platoonmate asks you to hold a shot so he can collect epic medal.  Same assumptions as #2.
6. Platoonmate asks you to hold a shot so he can finish a personal mission.  Same assumptions as #2.

7.  Platoonmate does NOT ask explicitly, but you know he's working on a personal mission, and you can safely hold your shot for <5 seconds to allow him to collect the last kill.

 

Assuming that there is negligible risk of losing the game, I would allow the teammate/clanmate/platoonmate to take the shot in all of the above scenarios except #1.  Does your principle apply such that you'd go ahead and take the shot in all of examples 1-7?  If not, which ones, and why not?



_Laserguided_ #408 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 15:45

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View Post_Juris, on Aug 23 2017 - 06:26, said:

I will happily retract my conditional (and, if you read carefully, you will see that it was, in fact conditional) "jerk" statement - not saying you're a jerk, and, like I said, you are completely free to play the game however you want (and, as long as you didn't say something in chat, I probably wouldn't notice or care if you "took" a last kill after some other teammate had asked the team if he could have it).  Would you likewise be willing to refrain from insinuating that your position is somehow morally superior?  Or would that be "giving me something that I haven't earned?"  ;)

 

I'm genuinely, actually curious about how far your principle goes.  For example, let's consider an exemplary set of such requests:

1. Random teammate who is most of the way across the map asks to collect the last arty kill.
2. Random teammate asks you to hold a shot until his reload finishes and he can collect a top gun.  Assume that this will require you "stop" playing for ~10 seconds max, he's already in position to take the shot, and you're the only teammate other than him who will have the opportunity to take the kill before he can.
3. Clanmate in the same random battle (but not in platoon) asks you to hold a shot so he can collect a Radley-Walters'/Pool's Medal.  Same assumptions as #2.
4. Clanmate in the same random battle (but not in platoon) asks you to refrain from killing the last arty so he can finish a light tank mission requiring him to spot and damage 3 arty.  Same assumptions as #2.
5. Platoonmate asks you to hold a shot so he can collect epic medal.  Same assumptions as #2.
6. Platoonmate asks you to hold a shot so he can finish a personal mission.  Same assumptions as #2.

7.  Platoonmate does NOT ask explicitly, but you know he's working on a personal mission, and you can safely hold your shot for <5 seconds to allow him to collect the last kill.

 

Assuming that there is negligible risk of losing the game, I would allow the teammate/clanmate/platoonmate to take the shot in all of the above scenarios except #1.  Does your principle apply such that you'd go ahead and take the shot in all of examples 1-7?  If not, which ones, and why not?

 

I read things very carefully, details are my job, and as well, I read carefully between the lines... :B  

 

My desire to stand on a personal precept isn't insinuating moral superiority.  I squashed that idea long ago when I stressed the point(more than once) that I wouldn't mention anything in game and that I am simply discussing the matter here on the forum.  Which means your idea I am acting in some holier than thou manner is unfounded.   All that said, I am left with the safe conclusion you are simply repeating this for something other than substance.  

 

Again... Since my stand is on principle, I wouldn't stop playing the game regardless of the scenario. 

 



NK_33 #409 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 16:24

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A Top Gun, maybe if all they need is reload time, I've shifted my aim point to track rather than kill.

 

The only time I'd give a medal is if a Pool's Medal winner (12 kills) wanted a Raseiniai Heroes Medal (14 kills), they earned it, they carried our sorry butts for the whole game.  Anything less is charity.



Kenshin2kx #410 Posted Aug 23 2017 - 19:52

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View Post_Juris, on Aug 23 2017 - 04:26, said:

I will happily retract my conditional (and, if you read carefully, you will see that it was, in fact conditional) "jerk" statement - not saying you're a jerk, and, like I said, you are completely free to play the game however you want (and, as long as you didn't say something in chat, I probably wouldn't notice or care if you "took" a last kill after some other teammate had asked the team if he could have it).  Would you likewise be willing to refrain from insinuating that your position is somehow morally superior?  Or would that be "giving me something that I haven't earned?"  ;)

 

I'm genuinely, actually curious about how far your principle goes.  For example, let's consider an exemplary set of such requests:

1. Random teammate who is most of the way across the map asks to collect the last arty kill.  <Kenshin2kx - I've never asked ... so I would take the shot>

2. Random teammate asks you to hold a shot until his reload finishes and he can collect a top gun.  Assume that this will require you "stop" playing for ~10 seconds max, he's already in position to take the shot, and you're the only teammate other than him who will have the opportunity to take the kill before he can.  <Kenshin2kx - per my personal code of conduct, I value consistency and the game intent on 'earning' ... so I would take the shot ... >
3. Clanmate in the same random battle (but not in platoon) asks you to hold a shot so he can collect a Radley-Walters'/Pool's Medal.  Same assumptions as #2.  <Kenshin2kx - to be totally honest, I'm not absolutely sure here (was never in that position) ... it depends >
4. Clanmate in the same random battle (but not in platoon) asks you to refrain from killing the last arty so he can finish a light tank mission requiring him to spot and damage 3 arty.  Same assumptions as #2.   <Kenshin2kx - Missions I'm generally okay with ...>
5. Platoonmate asks you to hold a shot so he can collect epic medal.  Same assumptions as #2.   <Kenshin2kx - 'general' epic medal, no.  The ones that like a dozen players have ... it depends> 
6. Platoonmate asks you to hold a shot so he can finish a personal mission.  Same assumptions as #2.  <Kenshin2kx - Missions I'm generally okay with ...>

7.  Platoonmate does NOT ask explicitly, but you know he's working on a personal mission, and you can safely hold your shot for <5 seconds to allow him to collect the last kill.  <Kenshin2kx - No.  I don't cater to mind reading ... similarly, while on the freeway, unless a car actually uses there directional blinkers, I won't change my driving speed ... i.e. follow the rules and I will acknowledge your intent.>

 

Assuming that there is negligible risk of losing the game, I would allow the teammate/clanmate/platoonmate to take the shot in all of the above scenarios except #1.  Does your principle apply such that you'd go ahead and take the shot in all of examples 1-7?  If not, which ones, and why not?

 

So, this begs the question ,why missions? ... well, because I think WG are idiots for designing them the way they did - to have them interfere with normal matches ... so, while taking the calculated assessment that it won't affect the game ... conditional 'go for it'.

Additional factor - I've never been in a clan, and don't platoon.

 



mattwong #411 Posted Aug 25 2017 - 17:07

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View Post_Juris, on Aug 22 2017 - 12:50, said:

How does asking politely to be allowed to grab the last kill reflect this?

 

There's nothing wrong with that ... unless the person feels entitled to that last kill, to the point that he thinks you are a bad person if you say no.  And judging by many of the responses on this thread, that is exactly the problem.

 

Sometimes, when people ask for something, what they're really saying is "please do this, but if you don't, then you're a scumbag", which is not really a request: it's a demand.



Schoppen_Aas #412 Posted Aug 25 2017 - 17:11

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last time an ally asked me if i wanted the last kill to get top gun.

i said no.

i just take the win.


Edited by Schoppen_Aas, Aug 25 2017 - 17:15.


Kenshin2kx #413 Posted Aug 25 2017 - 17:45

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View PostSchoppen_Aas, on Aug 25 2017 - 06:11, said:

last time an ally asked me if i wanted the last kill to get top gun.

i said no.

i just take the win.

 

I think you have made a good point here ... if others acknowledge your contribution to the point of offering the option (by majority popular acclaim) ... then I see no problem with this as well ... IMHO, kudos to you if you politely decline in favor of a 'real time' unaltered win.



frontflip2cool #414 Posted Sep 11 2017 - 20:54

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I faced a similar situation when I was on 7 kills in my ISU-122S on mountain pass. my first ever battle in that tank too. I asked for the kill on the arty(only tank left on enemy team) and someone took it. I asked for the kill nicely. what i said was "please let me have the last kill for a Radley-Walters medal thank you" and an M4A3E2 was just like nope right as i aimed and fire(AP round) RNG said the E2's shot(derp gun HE) got there first.

 



Prosqtor #415 Posted Sep 11 2017 - 22:19

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View Postmattwong, on Aug 25 2017 - 11:07, said:

 

There's nothing wrong with that ... unless the person feels entitled to that last kill, to the point that he thinks you are a bad person if you say no.  And judging by many of the responses on this thread, that is exactly the problem.

 

Sometimes, when people ask for something, what they're really saying is "please do this, but if you don't, then you're a scumbag", which is not really a request: it's a demand.

 

I don't always agree with Matt (really Mike) Wong....but when I disagree I doubt myself.  I agree with him here.  It is fine to ask.  It is fine to do it if you are so inclined.  However, you don't owe anyone anything.  Personally, I no longer care about my stats (as you can see, I am playing arty all the time and also tons of IXs and Xs) and I generally am happy to let someone else get some meaningless thing.  However, if I don't let you have it I will feel no guilt.




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