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Defender is OP


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An_Innocent_Bystander #261 Posted Mar 25 2017 - 15:57

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View Postdeathsheads, on Mar 25 2017 - 15:06, said:

If you zoom in past 8x the true circle can be bigger than shown reticle, but I don't think that applies when fully aimed.

Yea, I wouldn't expect frumpy to calculate for that though. And yea, it only applies basically if you are in sniper view and driving with a lot of dispersion, when fully aimed the circle is true to where the shell can go.


Edited by An_Innocent_Bystander, Mar 25 2017 - 15:57.


MemeFlerp #262 Posted Mar 25 2017 - 20:57

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View PostAn_Innocent_Bystander, on Mar 24 2017 - 15:13, said:

Since it's a Friday I can play once I get done with work for the week. I'll hop in a training room with a  friend who has a Defender and have him do everything he can to throw my aim off. Perhaps you are unable to do it, but it's rather easy to compensate for these motions. You have no idea what you are talking about and it displays in your lack of success.

Why dont you just hop into a random game and show us your mad skillz.   Or do your mad skillz only apply when it is a perfect setup.  With someone letting you take those shots. 



An_Innocent_Bystander #263 Posted Mar 25 2017 - 21:01

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Because I can't guarantee there to be an enemy Defender in my match nor can I guarantee that he will go to a logical place that I would meet him. Surely you aren't this ignorant? Far easier to go into a training room and guarantee there be a Defender to fight. Run along now pubbie.

Edited by An_Innocent_Bystander, Mar 25 2017 - 21:02.


Hey_Hey_Hey_Its_MAGIC #264 Posted Mar 25 2017 - 21:39

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View PostAn_Innocent_Bystander, on Mar 24 2017 - 10:41, said:

First off, to get this out of the way, yes, I do own a Defender. I do not allow that to influence my opinion, I face them in battle far more often than I play mine.

 

While it's certainly a competitive vehicle it's not overpowered. I asked around WONKA and that's also the consensus of the vast majority, even though a lot of them don't own the tank, so I'm not alone in that thinking.

 

I will go through each aspect of the tank:

 

Armor: People's main complaint. Doesn't work as people hype it up to both when I shoot at them, and when any non braindead player shoots at me. If the lower plate is exposed to a tier 8 at all, it's probably going in in my experience. I have 100 more average damage blocked in my 112, and around 550-600 out of the 660 games I have in it were played before it went HD, and the LFP was literally a near autopen for tier 6s. I also have an extra 3.5% shots taken without receiving damage in the 112. That's how unreliable the Defender is. 

 

Gun: I don't find 440 that much worse than 390, obviously annoying when they roll high but it's just another gun. When you reach unicum, it's because you have reached a fairly consistent level of good play. The number of mistakes is vastly decreased, and any time I take damage it's because either I wanted to in order to say take out a oneshot, or I made a mistake. So the damage it inflicts against me is not a frequent issue, so perhaps my perspective is tainted from the amount of pain it causes normal pubbies. The gun handles badly and is also heavily RNG dependent so at ranges further than brawling it has to stop to aim for 3+ seconds and even then it's no guaranteed damage if you are in a tank that they had to aim for a weakspot on.

 

 It's also got sub par DPM, and if you conpare it to a 390 alpha gun, since both guns take 4 shots to kill a tier 8 heavy, assuming the 390 doesn't roll low, I would rather (IS-3 reload) be done 6 secs faster and have the better handling of the 390 gun. Plus with the 13 sec reload, it's so easy to trade 2 for 1 with using 90% of other tanks. I do this with my 110 (best tier 8 heavy imo) all the time. (Played it a long time ago for the grind so pub stats are messed up but I bought it back and use it in SH and team battles nowadays) 

 

Mobility: People say it has too much armor for the mobility but as a Chinese heavy driver 35kph and it's HP/t + ground resistances  is not that fast and really not much better if at all than other HTs. 

 

WR Graphs: I don't trust them. They show the Black Prince is OP at all skill levels, which it is far from, it's a slow low skill cap poorly gunned mediocre armored pos. According to the WR graphs the IS-6 wildly overperforms but most people don't cry about it. It is around 5-6% overperforming for the majority of the scale on WR to the Defenders 3.5-4%. So it's "more OP" yet few have a problem with it (I actually think it should get a DPM nerf with gun handling buffs to compensate, but it's not a big deal at all).

 

I also think the Defender's curves and stats will drastically fall in 5-6 months when the poor pubbies have finally acclimated and know how to kill them. 

 

And thats why I believe it's not OP. 

 

People just can't admit the truth

IS7 Has 150 MM of base armor and ~315 EFF 

Obj 260 has 150 MM of base armor and slightly less than the IS7 

The Obj 252U has 130 MM of base armor and 330 MM of eff armor.

I own an 252U, and I can't deny the fact that it is overpowered. 

However there are many other overpowered premiums as well in the armor department so if someone owns an AMX M4 49 and complains to you rip them a new one. But yes, you're wrong. A tier 8 that can see tier 6s with tier X armor isn't fair. It just isn't.



Motok0 #265 Posted Mar 25 2017 - 21:42

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View PostHey_Hey_Hey_Its_MAGIC, on Mar 25 2017 - 15:39, said:

 

People just can't admit the truth

IS7 Has 150 MM of base armor and ~315 EFF 

Obj 260 has 150 MM of base armor and slightly less than the IS7 

The Obj 252U has 130 MM of base armor and 330 MM of eff armor.

I own an 252U, and I can't deny the fact that it is overpowered. 

However there are many other overpowered premiums as well in the armor department so if someone owns an AMX M4 49 and complains to you rip them a new one. But yes, you're wrong. A tier 8 that can see tier 6s with tier X armor isn't fair. It just isn't.

 

wow, logic on a forum!@

 

 



An_Innocent_Bystander #266 Posted Mar 25 2017 - 22:43

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View PostHey_Hey_Hey_Its_MAGIC, on Mar 25 2017 - 21:39, said:

 

People just can't admit the truth

IS7 Has 150 MM of base armor and ~315 EFF 

Obj 260 has 150 MM of base armor and slightly less than the IS7 

The Obj 252U has 130 MM of base armor and 330 MM of eff armor.

I own an 252U, and I can't deny the fact that it is overpowered. 

However there are many other overpowered premiums as well in the armor department so if someone owns an AMX M4 49 and complains to you rip them a new one. But yes, you're wrong. A tier 8 that can see tier 6s with tier X armor isn't fair. It just isn't.

Oh noes it has good armor when you Autoaim the upper plate!

 

 And are you saying the M4 49 has OP armor? Lol.


Edited by An_Innocent_Bystander, Mar 25 2017 - 22:43.


frumpylumps #267 Posted Mar 26 2017 - 00:27

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View PostAn_Innocent_Bystander, on Mar 25 2017 - 22:43, said:

Oh noes it has good armor when you Autoaim the upper plate!

 

 And are you saying the M4 49 has OP armor? Lol.

 

stop being ridiculous and irrational.  You seem incapable of making a relative comparison. Were talking about a tank that has no significant weaknesses yet has exceptional strengths, it runs contrary to the the basic fundamentals of game balance. If you haven't noticed, all the new tier 8 premiums they are selling are overpowered in comparison to tech tree tanks, and outperforming tech tree tanks.  WG made them that way on purpose to make buckets of cash.  Pull your head out.

 

Lower tier TDs become worthless in their role once a defender starts coming down their line because they can't even penetrate the lower plate with gold ammo.  Are you really so incredibly ignorant that you can't see the imbalance here? 

 


Edited by frumpylumps, Mar 26 2017 - 01:40.


An_Innocent_Bystander #268 Posted Mar 26 2017 - 01:51

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"No significant weaknesses"

I'm gonna quote The Princess Bride here:
"I don't think that word means what you think it means"

deathsheads #269 Posted Mar 26 2017 - 01:54

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My problem with AMX M4 arguments are.

It has a bigger cupola.  Arguably weaker turret (thicker but flat)

It's HULL is thicker but never autobounce, only high armor bounce.

 

It has the same plague the ferdi and Tiger p have, the dreaded side plates.  When even slight off angle, still autobounce sides, the AMX M4 will make his hull "shoulders" about 200 thick of FLAT armor.  Which is to say, he can only point his armor at you, if he angles he makes himself weaker.  

 

252 gets stronger at off angle...

 

This is ignoring the fact that the AMX M4 has 40 less side armor and is MUCH much taller.  Or that it has 140 less alpha per shot.



frumpylumps #270 Posted Mar 26 2017 - 02:24

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View PostAn_Innocent_Bystander, on Mar 26 2017 - 01:51, said:

"No significant weaknesses"

I'm gonna quote The Princess Bride here:
"I don't think that word means what you think it means"

 

Its you who doesn't understand what overpowered means.  I know i'm going to regret this because i already know you are incapable of a rational comparison, but what significant weaknesses do you think the defender has? 

 

Btw, how much money did a reroll like you throw at the game just to get a unicum recent?  I do that without even trying.    Farming damage behind the team in Chinese lights has been good to you I see.

 

Looking at your padded stats, you don't even spot 2 tanks per game in the 132 and only 2.1 per game in the 131.   A shameful display.


Edited by frumpylumps, Mar 26 2017 - 02:34.





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