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Defender is OP


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Kevlar1972 #41 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 14:53

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View PostVerblonde, on Mar 20 2017 - 08:39, said:

I do own one (well, a 252), and I think it's a bit OP, but not ludicrously so.

People seem to have very little trouble blowing me up in mine, but I've got the WR in mine to a couple of points above my average in heavies generally now (it was bang-on identical until about a week ago), and it's something like my third highest average dpg AFV.

They aren't as game-breaking as the more hysterical elements on here would suggest, but (based on comparing my results in mine against my other heavies) they are either slightly OP, or possibly fairly easy to play. They are also rather map dependent: as very strong brawlers, with awful accuracy and view-range, they do much better in cities than on more open maps - on the latter, they tend to be toast.

 

Compared to your IS-3 stats it's way better.  Like 9% winrate and 200 dpg better.  But some people say the IS-3 is the better tank lol.



Halonut24 #42 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 14:57

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I don't know what planet you live on to have the 252U be "easilly pennable". From the sides and rear sure (durr hurr everything is). Frontally, it beats the tar out of any tier 8 premium in the game, and gives IX's a run for their money. WZ-111? Nope. IS-6? Probably not. KV-5? No. T34? Better, but no. Any premium medium? Maybe, probably still no.

Tier VIII is a very popular tier for making money with premiums. When you need to fire gold just to hurt it, there is a problem. I run the WZ and I can't even pen the lower plate on the darn thing. And yes, I know that gun is trash, but still! 

I would hope that either other tier VIII premiums get a pen buff, or give the 252 an armor nerf. The way it is right now, it's a pain, and needs work.



WorldConqueror #43 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:01

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 00:55, said:

 

If you think this tank is balanced go play a tiger 2 or carnevaron and tell me its balanced

 

 

Perhaps you should be creating threads about how these are UP rather than the Defender being OP? Considering you cherry picked 2 of the weaker tier 8 heavies.

 

Defender excels in its role of close range frontal engagements, yes. That so many maps are designed for close range frontal engagements isn't it's fault, though it benefits from it. If there was more variety in maps it wouldn't be a problem that this is strong in its role.



Handies #44 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:23

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View PostKevlar1972, on Mar 20 2017 - 06:53, said:

 

Compared to your IS-3 stats it's way better.  Like 9% winrate and 200 dpg better.  But some people say the IS-3 is the better tank lol.

 

I don't have the 252u. Do I want it? Yes. Why? It reminds me of my Is3. Do I think I must have it? No. Why? The Is3 has a smaller lfp, a weaker pike(Trolley), smaller target, better gun handling, mobility with slightly less damage. Is3 is just a better tank to play. How did I come up with this without owning the tank. I only play tier 8-10. I have fought quite a bit of the 252s and I am not impressed.  It is an an oversized Is3. If the is3 was slightly larger, the tank would be trash. I have 300+ battles with a 58% w/r in my Is3.

Edited by Handies, Mar 20 2017 - 15:24.


frumpylumps #45 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:26

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View PostLethalhavoc, on Mar 20 2017 - 00:58, said:

 

Both of those tanks have good pen and accurate guns with a great rate of fire.

Have you tried aiming?

 

don't be so dunning kruger.  Do you think you are clever telling people to "learn to aim." as if that solves the RNG problem

 

How about you get some common sense instead?  Defender is obviously OP



Handies #46 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:27

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Mar 20 2017 - 07:26, said:

 

don't be so dunning kruger.  Do you think you are clever telling people to "learn to aim." as if that solves the RNG problem

 

How about you get some common sense instead?  Defender is obviously OP

 

If the Defender is op, then the Is3 is god.

Verblonde #47 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:30

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View PostKevlar1972, on Mar 20 2017 - 08:53, said:

 

Compared to your IS-3 stats it's way better.  Like 9% winrate and 200 dpg better.  But some people say the IS-3 is the better tank lol.

 

I was tempted to look at that; I didn't in the end, because, a) I find them very different tanks to play and b) my IS3 is cursed (although I do think it's a slightly better tank overall, mainly due to the gun performance).

WorldConqueror #48 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:39

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Mar 20 2017 - 15:26, said:

 

don't be so dunning kruger.  Do you think you are clever telling people to "learn to aim." as if that solves the RNG problem

 

How about you get some common sense instead?  Defender is obviously OP

 

You're obviously a dumbo. Wow, this declaring things as x is easy, I should do it more.

MinkeWhale #49 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 15:58

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View PostHandies, on Mar 20 2017 - 15:23, said:

 

I don't have the 252u. Do I want it? Yes. Why? It reminds me of my Is3. Do I think I must have it? No. Why? The Is3 has a smaller lfp, a weaker pike(Trolley), smaller target, better gun handling, mobility with slightly less damage. Is3 is just a better tank to play. How did I come up with this without owning the tank. I only play tier 8-10. I have fought quite a bit of the 252s and I am not impressed.  It is an an oversized Is3. If the is3 was slightly larger, the tank would be trash. I have 300+ battles with a 58% w/r in my Is3.

Play tier 6-8 for a while. When that alpha takes 60% of your AP and you can't​ pen them at all, you will be on the forums crying too.

 

"Just flank them" is nonsense only complete potatoes drive around solo in any tank. Even if you wanted to Yolo in this tank, These things lead lemming trains, as teammates follow them in. Every single game.  So if he craps on you for more than half of your health, his buddies clean you up when you try to flank.

 

It is press w and win, the only thing preventing absurd winrates is that there is 2-5 of these in every battle right now, so it comes down to who has more defenders or better players. If you see the other team has two and you have zero you will not win.

 

That said there are other stupid powerful tanks, e25, t67, Emil's, etc

 

I think if they had given it the proper damage 390, instead of 440, it wouldn't be so bad. 440 two shots all tier 6 heavies, 390 takes very lucky rolls to do less than three shots. High rolls on that 440 also two shots tier 7 lights and mediums. And 3 shots most tier 8 mediums. Vs the 4 shots every other tank with that same 122 gun needs. 



Verblonde #50 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:01

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View PostMinkeWhale, on Mar 20 2017 - 09:58, said:

Vs the 4 shots every other tank with that same 122 gun needs. 

 

The Defender has the same gun as the IS3 top gun; what else mounts that? I assume Tier IX and up?

Edit: I'm incorrect: Defender has BL-13; IS3 etc have BL-9.


Edited by Verblonde, Mar 20 2017 - 16:04.


frumpylumps #51 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:08

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 15:39, said:

 

You're obviously a dumbo. Wow, this declaring things as x is easy, I should do it more.

 

says the guy who thinks we should only considerwhether equal tier tanks can penetrate the defender when balancing it.  Your emotional arguments are pretty silly.  The tank is obviouslly OP and the numbers support that by a lot.  What are we supposed to use?  your brain? hah.   The facts don't care about your feelings.  Is it really so hard for you to admit that the game was better off without the defender?  You really don't get that this is pushing pay2win?

Edited by frumpylumps, Mar 20 2017 - 16:11.


MinkeWhale #52 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:18

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View PostVerblonde, on Mar 20 2017 - 15:30, said:

 

I was tempted to look at that; I didn't in the end, because, a) I find them very different tanks to play and b) my IS3 is cursed (although I do think it's a slightly better tank overall, mainly due to the gun performance).

Is3 is very good, defender is better. 440 is an absolute sweet spot. And early stats show the defender is much better and it's not close. 

 

All the complaining is from people trying to play tier 6-8. The defenders aim is irrelevant when it doesn't have to aim for pens against 95% of tanks at those tiers. Those tanks also dread that absurd alpha. I've seen team after team abandon cover and run away when the defender is spotted on their flank. And 9 times out of 10 that is their only option vs heading to the garage.

 

I agree that Russian gun handling is a problem in tier 10 matches. 

 

To be clear, the Patriot is a better tank in skilled hands imo, but, that's not the case for many premium tanks. Idiot defender players are a still force to recon with when you are driving a tier 6 med. 



MinkeWhale #53 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:21

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View PostVerblonde, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:01, said:

 

The Defender has the same gun as the IS3 top gun; what else mounts that? I assume Tier IX and up?

Edit: I'm incorrect: Defender has BL-13; IS3 etc have BL-9.

Yeah if it had the is3 gun, as it should, it would only be marginally op like the is3 and we could all go back to complaining about the cockroach (e25)



WorldConqueror #54 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:24

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:08, said:

 

says the guy who thinks we should only considerwhether equal tier tanks can penetrate the defender when balancing it.  Your emotional arguments are pretty silly.  The tank is obviouslly OP and the numbers support that by a lot.  What are we supposed to use?  your brain? hah.   The facts don't care about your feelings.  Is it really so hard for you to admit that the game was better off without the defender?  You really don't get that this is pushing pay2win?

 

No, I said if you want to argue that something is OP, maybe don't use tanks 2 tiers lower than it as your yardstick. Who is emotional here, me laughing at you or you frothing at the mouth trying to convince everyone? You're basically this guy:

The game would be better off without a lot of things. That doesn't make any of them OP.



MinkeWhale #55 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:30

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:24, said:

 

No, I said if you want to argue that something is OP, maybe don't use tanks 2 tiers lower than it as your yardstick. Who is emotional here, me laughing at you or you frothing at the mouth trying to convince everyone? You're basically this guy:

The game would be better off without a lot of things. That doesn't make any of them OP.

I like the picture but you are wrong, and frumpy has data, where as your argument is: LTP git gud, nice tin foil hat.

 

It's general powercreep. Its not shocking, it's just annoying. czech line, The Swede lines are op especially at the end, the skorpion g, the Patriot etc. Add a pinch of Russian bias to that powercreep and you have the defender.



frumpylumps #56 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:42

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:24, said:

 

No, I said if you want to argue that something is OP, maybe don't use tanks 2 tiers lower than it as your yardstick. Who is emotional here, me laughing at you or you frothing at the mouth trying to convince everyone? You're basically this guy:

The game would be better off without a lot of things. That doesn't make any of them OP.

 

LOL!.  The 3 tier spread is what the game is supposed to be balanced on, you ridiculous emo arguer.  Thanks for proving that you full of nonsense, and incapable of making a relative comparison.   Tanks have always been balanced with their full range of MM in mind.  Why do you think tanks with pref MM had traditionally lower penetration?   Are you really that clueless?

 

Not only is it common sense that the tank is overpowered but the statistics reflect that as well.

 

 Fact is that lower tier tanks have a harder time dealing with 252 than any other tier 8 tank.  Lower tier TDs become worthless in their role once a defender comes into their lane, as many cannot penetrate the LFP even with gold ammo, unlike when vs any other tier 8 tank.  It is obviously pay2win and overpowered for a reason, and you look very, very stupid trying to say its not. Try using facts instead of your feelings, kid.

 

 

 


Edited by frumpylumps, Mar 20 2017 - 16:49.


WorldConqueror #57 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:47

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View PostMinkeWhale, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:30, said:

I like the picture but you are wrong, and frumpy has data, where as your argument is: LTP git gud, nice tin foil hat.

 

It's general powercreep. Its not shocking, it's just annoying. czech line, The Swede lines are op especially at the end, the skorpion g, the Patriot etc. Add a pinch of Russian bias to that powercreep and you have the defender.

 

Well yeah, I mean don't engage it on its ideal fighting terms and you might fare better.

 

Which data? Winrate? VK100.01P still has a higher winrate than both versions. WZ-111 and Emil 1 have better winrates than the painted version. Haven't heard many people calling those tanks OP lately. Defender/252U are on top for damage dealt, but many other tanks beat them on damage ratio, so it's not like they stroll through unscathed. VK100 and 112 bounce more shots, but DEFENDER ARMOUR OP!!! So what stats matter, and who decides? It is strong yes. Not gamebreakingly OP. The only tier 8s it completely overwhelms are ones that have been left behind by all of the newer tanks. Buff those and hopefully we can all move on.



frumpylumps #58 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 16:55

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:47, said:

 

Well yeah, I mean don't engage it on its ideal fighting terms and you might fare better.

 

Which data? Winrate? VK100.01P still has a higher winrate than both versions. WZ-111 and Emil 1 have better winrates than the painted version. Haven't heard many people calling those tanks OP lately. Defender/252U are on top for damage dealt, but many other tanks beat them on damage ratio, so it's not like they stroll through unscathed. VK100 and 112 bounce more shots, but DEFENDER ARMOUR OP!!! So what stats matter, and who decides? It is strong yes. Not gamebreakingly OP. The only tier 8s it completely overwhelms are ones that have been left behind by all of the newer tanks. Buff those and hopefully we can all move on.

 

Win rate isn't the only the defender is dominating in, kid.  And just because those tanks have slightly higher win rates doesn't mean the defender is not OP since tons of [edited]ters are buying the obviously OP defender and helping to bring its stats down rather than being a tank you have to have some experience before you obtain.

 

Your arguments are so weak and pathetic.  Are you really so incapable of understanding good game balance? Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough?


Edited by frumpylumps, Mar 20 2017 - 16:56.


xperiment2g #59 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 17:03

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View PostTDRHooRaH, on Mar 19 2017 - 16:28, said:

Play the IS-6.

 

Completely useless now.

 

Can't pen anything and can't hit weakspots 50 meters away.

 

They gave  the SuperP a pen boost recently.  They've also, updated all the old useless German tanks to be competitive again. I'm hoping they will do the same for the IS6 going forward. It only makes sense. Not sure when this will happen though, it has been stated officially, they are reviewing each line and making adjustments.

WorldConqueror #60 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 17:07

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View Postfrumpylumps, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:55, said:

 

Win rate isn't the only the defender is dominating in, kid.  And just because those tanks have slightly higher win rates doesn't mean the defender is not OP since tons of [edited]ters are buying the obviously OP defender and helping to bring its stats down rather than being a tank you have to have some experience before you obtain.

 

Your arguments are so weak and pathetic.  Are you really so incapable of understanding good game balance? Haven't you embarrassed yourself enough?

 

OK so what other metrics are you measuring by? I just listed most of the important ones. OK, so no [edited]ters got the WZ-111 then I'm guessing? You know, that tank that you could earn for free a year or two ago?

 

Frumpy pls. You don't have the reputation you do for nothing.






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