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Too many maps don't allow scouting?

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harley001 #1 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 11:53

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Yes I am aware other maps are bad for other types of tanks. Like arty gets it bad on himmels as well. But at the moment, I am just focusing on light tanks. Mainly scout tanks. I feel like map issues never get addressed because every time they get brought up. Someone says "BUT THIS TANK ON THIS MAP IS BAD TOO!" That doesn't justify or excuse bad map design, which sadly is rampant in WOT. Almost all the maps are bias towards one tank type or another, and shooting down every attempt to discuss the biases isn't going to help, it will make them go ignored. 

 

I feel like on some maps wargaming legit forgets that light tanks exist and doesn't put scouting spots. Sure some light tanks work as harassers and flankers, but not all. 

 

Maps like Abbey, Himmelsdorf, Paris, Stalingrad, Kharkov, (and many others) prevent or very much limit scouting. Forcing light tanks to serve as a harassment role, even if that tank is not meant for that role. This often means light tanks are either the first ones to die or just wait until allied tanks have either lost the game or made a opening for them to exploit. So they may come in handy in the endgame but not in the early and unlikely in the mid game. 

 

At the very least they could put some active scouting spots that work. AND NO running at the enemy max speed or driving in front of them in the open is not active scouting. That is suicide scouting, active scouting means using lots of cover to prevent them from getting decent shots on you. 

 

I was just wondering if any other light tanks players feel like too many maps make it hard to passive scout. OR even active scout sometimes. 


Edited by harley001, Mar 20 2017 - 12:22.


Thijs79 #2 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:02

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I can only say i agree..

Iron_Duke_01 #3 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:12

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Now let's think about all the maps you can scout where heavies get mauled by TDs or artillery.

 

just suck it up and learn how to play.



Dratt_Dastardly #4 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:15

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I like playing light tanks and desert and flat tundra maps makes me excited when I'm in a light.

 

But I'm okay with the maps overall.  Most do not cater to every vehicle class.  Desert maps are fine for every class but heavies.  Artillery has a worse time with city maps.  Sniping tank destroyers have problems with hilly terrain.  It's just how it is and it's the luck of the draw with maps.



mapleleaftanker #5 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:33

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Light tanks.... hardest class to play imo.

ExclamationMarx #6 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:46

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View Postharley001, on Mar 20 2017 - 05:53, said:

Yes I am aware other maps are bad for other types of tanks. Like arty gets it bad on himmels as well. But at the moment, I am just focusing on light tanks. Mainly scout tanks. I feel like map issues never get addressed because every time they get brought up. Someone says "BUT THIS TANK ON THIS MAP IS BAD TOO!" That doesn't justify or excuse bad map design, which sadly is rampant in WOT. Almost all the maps are bias towards one tank type or another, and shooting down every attempt to discuss the biases isn't going to help, it will make them go ignored. 

 

I feel like on some maps wargaming legit forgets that light tanks exist and doesn't put scouting spots. Sure some light tanks work as harassers and flankers, but not all. 

 

Maps like Abbey, Himmelsdorf, Paris, Stalingrad, Kharkov, (and many others) prevent or very much limit scouting. Forcing light tanks to serve as a harassment role, even if that tank is not meant for that role. This often means light tanks are either the first ones to die or just wait until allied tanks have either lost the game or made a opening for them to exploit. So they may come in handy in the endgame but not in the early and unlikely in the mid game. 

 

At the very least they could put some active scouting spots that work. AND NO running at the enemy max speed or driving in front of them in the open is not active scouting. That is suicide scouting, active scouting means using lots of cover to prevent them from getting decent shots on you. 

 

I was just wondering if any other light tanks players feel like too many maps make it hard to passive scout. OR even active scout sometimes. 

 

I am an avid scout player, I have to say I deeply disagree. I have the T37 and 59-16 with 100% crew and over 450 Spotting range for each (If your view range goes over 445m it starts countering camo) It's all about how you play your scout on said map, my best game on the 59-16 in on Himmelsdorf, probably one of the most scout unfriendly maps in the game (In my opinion).

 

I feel that players tend to get really stuck within the "Scouting" class role, They try and scout probably more than they need to, You have to remember that scouts have guns as well as are mighty capable of doing their own Damage. Your main goal as a scout is to hopefully do damage and survive till the endgame of the match where you have 2 Heavies and a Medium on varying degrees of health and none of them want to poke to spot

 

I tend to play my scouts as follows: In the beginning of the match, I active scout the center and flanks to give the team a general idea if what enemy tanks are going where, from then on I run about doing small amounts of damage here and there, picking off low health targets, once enough tanks have died, I rush their arty, take them out, and fall back tot he team, keep derping around doing a little damage here and there until the endgame (If the match is close and ahs not already ended) Chances are, less fluent scout players have already died and you hopefully still have a decent amount of health )It doesn't always work like this so play according to the circumstances you are in). The endgame is really where scouting counts most, and you'll find that by doing as described, hopefully, you'll start getting consistently better scouting games.

 

Yes, there are maps that are very unfriendly to the scout class of tank, but there is a map like that for every class of tank. Just because you get a bad map does not mean you necessarily get a bad game.

 

I Hope this helped!


Edited by ExclamationMarx, Mar 20 2017 - 12:48.


_Brew_ #7 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:48

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I think there are too many maps geared toward forcing teams down lanes rather than utilizing the full playable area.  Scouts and turretless TD's suffer the most in the current setup.



Roggg2 #8 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:50

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I'm okay with some maps hobbling some tank classes.  It opens a windows for other tank classes to shine, and forces drivers of those hobbled classes to consider other uses or roles for the tank they are driving.  Most maps should be relatively balanced, but outliers are welcome for me at least.

shiil #9 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:56

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since i got the Lt-15 mission for T55A reward tank done, i stopped trying to spot unless i see very reasonable opportunity. Can't wait the tier x lights as i am going to instantly unlock them (except the  frenchie for obvious reasons) and from that point i won't even bother spotting for a long time till they give lights a reason to do their intended role.

WorldConqueror #10 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 12:56

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Yep, so many maps are based around the principle of 1 chokepoint on this side, 1 chokepoint on the other side, and the middle is no man's land covered by the snipers. So you basically end up playing as a med with neither the gun, the armour or the HP they get.

Grand_Cookie #11 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 13:17

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The maps used to be much more scout friendly with lots of open areas, lots of vegetation, that had longer firing lines, and everyone complained about how it sucked cause if you tried to move out you'd be spotted and wrecked by TDs. So now they defoliated most of the maps, shortened the available firing lines, and added move cover so you could manuvouer and people complain about that instead.

Being able to fight in the city maps as a gimped medium is not fun. That's why extending the light lines up to ten is happening. If the lights are going to be forced into the role you need more competitive ones that don't get outspoted by almost everything and can actually fight back once they are.

84Doc04 #12 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 13:47

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View PostExclamationMarx, on Mar 20 2017 - 06:46, said:

 

I am an avid scout player, I have to say I deeply disagree. I have the T37 and 59-16 with 100% crew and over 450 Spotting range for each (If your view range goes over 445m it starts countering camo) It's all about how you play your scout on said map, my best game on the 59-16 in on Himmelsdorf, probably one of the most scout unfriendly maps in the game (In my opinion).

 

I feel that players tend to get really stuck within the "Scouting" class role, They try and scout probably more than they need to, You have to remember that scouts have guns as well as are mighty capable of doing their own Damage. Your main goal as a scout is to hopefully do damage and survive till the endgame of the match where you have 2 Heavies and a Medium on varying degrees of health and none of them want to poke to spot

 

I tend to play my scouts as follows: In the beginning of the match, I active scout the center and flanks to give the team a general idea if what enemy tanks are going where, from then on I run about doing small amounts of damage here and there, picking off low health targets, once enough tanks have died, I rush their arty, take them out, and fall back tot he team, keep derping around doing a little damage here and there until the endgame (If the match is close and ahs not already ended) Chances are, less fluent scout players have already died and you hopefully still have a decent amount of health )It doesn't always work like this so play according to the circumstances you are in). The endgame is really where scouting counts most, and you'll find that by doing as described, hopefully, you'll start getting consistently better scouting games.

 

Yes, there are maps that are very unfriendly to the scout class of tank, but there is a map like that for every class of tank. Just because you get a bad map does not mean you necessarily get a bad game.

 

I Hope this helped!

 

THIS!!!

  I struggle in scout tanks and force myself to keep playing them to improve.  If you have a problem with a specific map, get a couple of buddies together and run around in a training room on that map.  Explore the "nooks and crannies" and find the good angles in that low stress environment.  You might be surprised how much better you can do when you have a better grasp of the map details.

 



Skeleton #13 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 13:51

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View Postharley001, on Mar 20 2017 - 11:53, said:

Yes I am aware other maps are bad for other types of tanks. Like arty gets it bad on himmels as well. But at the moment, I am just focusing on light tanks. Mainly scout tanks. I feel like map issues never get addressed because every time they get brought up. Someone says "BUT THIS TANK ON THIS MAP IS BAD TOO!" That doesn't justify or excuse bad map design, which sadly is rampant in WOT. Almost all the maps are bias towards one tank type or another, and shooting down every attempt to discuss the biases isn't going to help, it will make them go ignored. 

 

I feel like on some maps wargaming legit forgets that light tanks exist and doesn't put scouting spots. Sure some light tanks work as harassers and flankers, but not all. 

 

Maps like Abbey, Himmelsdorf, Paris, Stalingrad, Kharkov, (and many others) prevent or very much limit scouting. Forcing light tanks to serve as a harassment role, even if that tank is not meant for that role. This often means light tanks are either the first ones to die or just wait until allied tanks have either lost the game or made a opening for them to exploit. So they may come in handy in the endgame but not in the early and unlikely in the mid game. 

 

At the very least they could put some active scouting spots that work. AND NO running at the enemy max speed or driving in front of them in the open is not active scouting. That is suicide scouting, active scouting means using lots of cover to prevent them from getting decent shots on you. 

 

I was just wondering if any other light tanks players feel like too many maps make it hard to passive scout. OR even active scout sometimes. 

 

It is in my opinion that if a light is getting the short end, so is arty and TD's.

 

No straight opened areas on maps means TD's can't line up shots from back in camo land, and arty can't hit with small hills and buildings everywhere (not that arty will matter much longer).

 

Also WG doesn't seem to like maps that actually are fun to play and have MULTIPLE areas where each tank class can go and still be effective without losing the game just because say the Heavies didn't go to the 1 line.

 

Think about all the maps removed they all offered multiple routes big open areas, they were great maps for all classes and again you didn't have to play them the same way over and over again (not doing so putting your team in a deficit).

 

Also you should check out my thread suggesting the removal of 6th sense.

 

I have updated to ONLY have 6th sense NOT go off IF the tank spotting you is NOT spotted by your team.  You shouldn't know if you are spotted by a tank that isn't even on the map at the time.

 

This would make it more balanced for Passive Scout Tank Players.  Those who actively scout would still set off enemy tanks sixth sense if they were spotted (which they usually are).

 

With arty getting the stun mechanic the need for 6th sense isn't justified anymore (was brought in due to arty complaints in the first place).

 

Trying to be fair to all I changed the suggestion to only not spotted tanks.

 

I think that would help out Scout Tanks a lot!  These maps with very little room to scout it makes it very hard on the passive scout to ever get any assisted damage.  Tankers sixth sense goes off before they even take a shot most times and they quickly back up to cover before anyone can even get their turrets turned and aimed in.  

 

As far as you passive vrs. active scouting I feel that most maps even in their current form deal well with the active scout as they have the same ridges and such that give the enemy cover and make it hard for TD's and Arty to get shots off.  However, the passive scout cannot see over that ridge through those buildings, over those rocks and thus he cannot effectively scout passively.  

 

Again when a passive actually does like say Air Field as a great example going out into danger zone to hopefully get a spot as soon as the enemies sixth sense goes off they always back up before the TD's even get shots.  Whereas before that same tanker would have unknowingly kept going forward beyond the zone of being able to safely back up without taking a single shot, thus giving the passive scouter some assisted damage and allowing him to do his job.

 

Another great example is Prokhorovka and Fiery Salient which on the 1 line has the very well known spot for passive scouts, HOWEVER as soon as an enemy tanks sixth sense goes off they ping the map and everyone shoots blind at that bush, totally making it 100% unfair for the scout.

 

Anyways I am bringing up the Sixth Sense because while I 100% agree with the lack of open maps for light tanks to be effective at their roles I strongly feel that sixth sense also hinders the Current map selection and putting in a fix for at least passive scouts would make them at the very least a bit more effective if they are willing to risk it all to get up into enemy lines on these very limited maps that we currently have.


Edited by Skeleton, Mar 20 2017 - 14:04.


Skeleton #14 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 14:08

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View PostGrand_Cookie, on Mar 20 2017 - 13:17, said:

The maps used to be much more scout friendly with lots of open areas, lots of vegetation, that had longer firing lines, and everyone complained about how it sucked cause if you tried to move out you'd be spotted and wrecked by TDs. So now they defoliated most of the maps, shortened the available firing lines, and added move cover so you could manuvouer and people complain about that instead.

Being able to fight in the city maps as a gimped medium is not fun. That's why extending the light lines up to ten is happening. If the lights are going to be forced into the role you need more competitive ones that don't get outspoted by almost everything and can actually fight back once they are.

 

This too all too often a TD can out spot you while you are trying to get to a location, and then there is the speed issue where many mediums and TD's are just as fast if not faster than the light tanks!

 

I know all the uniturds wouldn't be happy (no more wn8 farming) but I would love it if scouts and ONLY scouts had the best view range and speed in the game (no more meds or td's in the same tier going faster than you or out spotting you and taking your xp away) at the sacrifice of having some kind of stun mechanic similar to the arty.  Scouts shouldn't be leading in damage because the sat in the back and gold snipe farmed wn8 anyways.

 

That is just a pipe dream though lol.



Skeleton #15 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 14:08

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View Post_Brew_, on Mar 20 2017 - 12:48, said:

I think there are too many maps geared toward forcing teams down lanes rather than utilizing the full playable area.  Scouts and turretless TD's suffer the most in the current setup.

 

Yes this is what I was mentioning above, all he great fun maps that didn't force you have been removed.

Gallamoth #16 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 17:08

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View PostIron_Duke_01, on Mar 20 2017 - 12:12, said:

Now let's think about all the maps you can scout where heavies get mauled by TDs or artillery.

 

just suck it up and learn how to play.

 

What a foolish thing to post.

Wtornado #17 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 17:19

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View PostIron_Duke_01, on Mar 20 2017 - 06:12, said:

Now let's think about all the maps you can scout where heavies get mauled by TDs or artillery.

 

just suck it up and learn how to play.

The scouts role is to spot for arty the heavies supported by meds back with fire support of TD's they have their own shi* to do and move.

 

Scouts for arty....Everyone else will hide behind a bush far back and bitc** about scouts not doing their job but when they light a tank up for a

SPG and if you notice the SPG's never says a word when you spot a tank once in a while for them.

 

Because that is the scouts role.

View Postmapleleaftanker, on Mar 20 2017 - 06:33, said:

Light tanks.... hardest class to play imo.

Definitely and sometimes your life span is short in high tier matches.

 

Fire and maneuver and get the hell out of the way when heavy tanks clash.



strenfoo #18 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 18:37

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View Postharley001, on Mar 20 2017 - 03:53, said:

This often means light tanks are either the first ones to die

 

It's the player's fault if they're the first one to die, not Wargaming's.  If someone doesn't know how to play a light tank on these types of maps without dying right away, I'd prefer they literally sat in the back corner for the first few minutes doing absolutely nothing so they're alive when the battle's fully underway and they're most important.  Few things bother me as much, in this game, as seeing all of our lights die in the first 30 seconds because they're so desperate to get spots.  This is why lights are the hardest class to play.

 

If your team doesn't need you to scout, then don't try to force yourself into that role.  There are lots of times when your team doesn't need your vision (e.g. small city maps, your teammates are able to spot the enemies themselves, etc).  Do something else more productive when you're in this situation even if that means simply sitting behind hard cover and waiting for an opportunity.


Edited by strenfoo, Mar 20 2017 - 18:40.


Jager_Gunner #19 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 18:59

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Light tanks are pretty well my favorite class to play in the game. I also have most of my best games in light tanks and they are my most played tanks. The biggest thing I have learned about light tanks is knowing when to move and where to move to. This can make the difference between a win with 5k assisted or a loss with 0-1k assisted and a death. I'm no expert by any means, but I like to think I do better than the average player in my lights.

Manabozo #20 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 19:57

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Scout in a city map; Run around shooting tanks in the side and rear for either damage or to get their attention, but this results in two things: either half of their team comes after you, or arty still somehow one shots you at full speed.





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