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Tank balance

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Pipinghot #21 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 23:18

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 13:15, said:

Ask anyone with a brain as to whether the E25 or T29 are some of the best tanks in the game.

You're just muttering nothing's into the air.

 

Once again, state your position, provide your supporting arguments, then have a meaningful discussion. Anything less is just you rambling in circles accomplishing nothing.



Motok0 #22 Posted Mar 20 2017 - 23:52

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View PostPipinghot, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:18, said:

You're just muttering nothing's into the air.

 

Once again, state your position, provide your supporting arguments, then have a meaningful discussion. Anything less is just you rambling in circles accomplishing nothing.

 

You realize there are games MUCH LARGER than this game, that also have balance issues? Do you think this game is perfectly balanced or even anywhere NEAR balanced? 

 

its not my job to balance the game, but im sure someone is responsible for it. They have the data, vbaddict has data,go look at damage per game relative to other tanks of same tier, its not that hard.

 

I dont need 400 charts and tables to know a T29 is infinitely better than a black prince, but theyre both t7 heavies. This isn't brain surgery.  Do you need me to start spelling out the big words? 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Motok0, Mar 21 2017 - 00:00.


Handies #23 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 00:49

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 06:33, said:

 

you must be an E25 and T67 seal clubber.

 

 

 

Yeah, I totally am. Why don't you look and not just accuse. It even says in my sig that my Average tier is 8+. Rofl...

Edited by Handies, Mar 21 2017 - 04:17.


Pipinghot #24 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 01:25

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:52, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:18, said:

You're just muttering nothing's into the air.

 

Once again, state your position, provide your supporting arguments, then have a meaningful discussion. Anything less is just you rambling in circles accomplishing nothing.

You realize there are games MUCH LARGER than this game, that also have balance issues? Do you think this game is perfectly balanced or even anywhere NEAR balanced?

Why are you asking rhetorical questions that have absolutely nothing to do with your own thread, it looks a lot like you're doing everything you can to avoid being direct and honest. This is your third post in a row with rhetorical questions that do nothing to advance any discussion about OP/UP tanks. You sure are working hard to avoid having a real discussion..

 

Whether or not other games are bigger or have balance issues has absolutely nothing to do with WoT, you didn't ask us to compare whether WoW is better balanced that WoT, that's nothing more than your attempt to dodge the question.

 

And it doesn't matter whether I think "this game is perfectly balanced or even anywhere NEAR balanced", that's not the topic of discussion, it's just another rhetorical question that you're using to dodge your own conversation.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:52, said:

its not my job to balance the game, but im sure someone is responsible for it.

It's not any players "job to balance the game", using that logic your entire thread is utterly pointless and there's no point in anyone talking to you. You seem to believe you started this thread for a reason, and yet you continue to avoid actually discussing the tanks, which shows that you don't even have faith in your own OP, you don't think your point is important enough to provide real arguments to support.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:52, said:

They have the data, vbaddict has data,go look at damage per game relative to other tanks of same tier, its not that hard.

So... you're pretty much going to ignore the very first reply you received in which Altwar made a series of good points, which are the very reasons why it's important to use specifics when trying to make your case and have a real discussion, not just throw out a bunch of unsupported questions like you've been doing.

 

Apparently you didn't notice that I started this thread trying to support you, and simply asking you to be more specific, which you decided to turn into an excuse for a bunch of rhetorical questions in which you're trying to do anything other than discuss your own topic.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:52, said:

 
 I dont need 400 charts and tables to know a T29 is infinitely better than a black prince, but theyre both t7 heavies.
According to vbaddict (a source that you yourself cited) the T-29 has a Win Rate of 50.91% while the Black Prince has Win Rate of 49.66%. If you can't tell the difference between "infintely better" and "1.25% better" it's no wonder you're fighting so hard against the idea that you need to give specific arguments and be prepared to defend them.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 17:52, said:

This isn't brain surgery.  Do you need me to start spelling out the big words?

It would be a lot better if you make sure you understand what the big words mean before you say them.



shanerd111 #25 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 01:27

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Redo the T-10. How stupid to make it play like a medium. I didn't go down the IS line to play a medium. I went down it to play BRAWLING heavy tanks. Now im stuck with this piece of crap T-10 and I hate it more than sweet pickles and mustard. Please WARGAMING, shoot your developers in the face with 12 guage rock salt rounds.



Motok0 #26 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 01:36

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View PostPipinghot, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:25, said:

Why are you asking rhetorical questions that have absolutely nothing to do with your own thread, it looks a lot like you're doing everything you can to avoid being direct and honest. This is your third post in a row with rhetorical questions that do nothing to advance any discussion about OP/UP tanks. You sure are working hard to avoid having a real discussion..

 

Whether or not other games are bigger or have balance issues has absolutely nothing to do with WoT, you didn't ask us to compare whether WoW is better balanced that WoT, that's nothing more than your attempt to dodge the question.

 

And it doesn't matter whether I think "this game is perfectly balanced or even anywhere NEAR balanced", that's not the topic of discussion, it's just another rhetorical question that you're using to dodge your own conversation.

It's not any players "job to balance the game", using that logic your entire thread is utterly pointless and there's no point in anyone talking to you. You seem to believe you started this thread for a reason, and yet you continue to avoid actually discussing the tanks, which shows that you don't even have faith in your own OP, you don't think your point is important enough to provide real arguments to support.

So... you're pretty much going to ignore the very first reply you received in which Altwar made a series of good points, which are the very reasons why it's important to use specifics when trying to make your case and have a real discussion, not just throw out a bunch of unsupported questions like you've been doing.

 

Apparently you didn't notice that I started this thread trying to support you, and simply asking you to be more specific, which you decided to turn into an excuse for a bunch of rhetorical questions in which you're trying to do anything other than discuss your own topic.

According to vbaddict (a source that you yourself cited) the T-29 has a Win Rate of 50.91% while the Black Prince has Win Rate of 49.66%. If you can't tell the difference between "infintely better" and "1.25% better" it's no wonder you're fighting so hard against the idea that you need to give specific arguments and be prepared to defend them.

It would be a lot better if you make sure you understand what the big words mean before you say them.

 

Do you honestly think the black prince is on par with the T29?

 

Do you honestly think the E25 is on par with basically ANY other T7 TD?

 

Do you honestly think the Defender is on par with the VK 45.02 A or Tiger 2 or T32 or EVEN some T9s heavies (M103) 

 

Do I need to go on? The funny thing is im not a veteran of this game but its not exactly difficult to see which tanks suck and which are good, because the TRASH TANKS ARE NEVER IN ANY GAMES, WHILE EVERY T5 GAME HAS MULTIPLE T67s in it.

 

How often do you see a foch in a T10 game?

 

How often do you see a leopard 1 in a T10 game?

 

How often do you see an m53/m55 relative to other artys?

 

Why is this hard for you to comprehend? There are tanks that everyone knows suck while others are deemed very good. 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Motok0, Mar 21 2017 - 01:41.


WorldConqueror #27 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 02:03

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 14:05, said:

I think everyone realizes there are lot of underperforming/overperforming tanks.

 

I think WG should focus on balancing these before introducing new tanks... I'm not saying to nerf or buff into oblivion.

 

Just a few examples of underperforming would be: Panther 1 line, Tiger 2, Caernvaron Foch 155 

 

and then the overperforming T67, Cromwell, T29, M53/M55, Swedish TDs, Defender, 0-1 Exp, Hetzer, etc. 

 

There are a lot more and maybe people will have a different of opinion on which tanks are too strong/weak but data can be obtained which doesnt lie.

 

 

Ok great I love data, can't wait to see the stats and charts in this thread.

 

View PostMotok0, on Mar 21 2017 - 01:36, said:

 

Do you honestly think the black prince is on par with the T29?

 

Do you honestly think the E25 is on par with basically ANY other T7 TD?

 

Do you honestly think the Defender is on par with the VK 45.02 A or Tiger 2 or T32 or EVEN some T9s heavies (M103) 

 

Do I need to go on? The funny thing is im not a veteran of this game but its not exactly difficult to see which tanks suck and which are good, because the TRASH TANKS ARE NEVER IN ANY GAMES, WHILE EVERY T5 GAME HAS MULTIPLE T67s in it.

 

How often do you see a foch in a T10 game?

 

How often do you see a leopard 1 in a T10 game?

 

How often do you see an m53/m55 relative to other artys?

 

Why is this hard for you to comprehend? There are tanks that everyone knows suck while others are deemed very good.

 

...oh. Oh. Just opinions then. OK.



Motok0 #28 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 02:13

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 20:03, said:

 

Ok great I love data, can't wait to see the stats and charts in this thread.

 

 

...oh. Oh. Just opinions then. OK.

 

Black prince damage per game:556

T29 DPG: 831

 

i mean, thats quite a large discrepancy. if it was within a reasonable range (10-20%) then id be satisfied, but it isnt. 

 

it also has over 30% more damage ratio than the black prince (.85 to .51 or something like that)  - also t29 averages more xp per minute of game time by a large advantage. 

 

Need more? of all t7 heavies the black prince has the lowest damage per game by a significant amount. it also has the lowest damage assisted by tracking and is 8th on the list in damage assist by spotting. abysmal numbers. 

 

black prince is 10/13 in accuracy and 13/13 in penetration rate. 

 

??????

 

Data.

 

im not going to obtain data for eveyr tank because i dont need to since it's so blatantly obvious. part of my job as an engineer is to recognize problems BEFORE SPENDING TONS OF TIME gathering and inrepreting data.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Motok0, Mar 21 2017 - 02:19.


WorldConqueror #29 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 02:25

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 21 2017 - 02:13, said:

 

Black prince damage per game:556

T29 DPG: 831

 

i mean, thats quite a large discrepancy. if it was within a reasonable range (10-20%) then id be satisfied, but it isnt. 

 

it also has over 30% more damage ratio than the black prince (.85 to .51 or something like that)  - also t29 averages more xp per minute of game time by a large advantage. 

 

Need more? of all t7 heavies the black prince has the lowest damage per game by a significant amount. it also has the lowest damage assisted by tracking and is 8th on the list in damage assist by spotting. abysmal numbers. 

 

black prince is 10/13 in accuracy and 13/13 in penetration rate. 

 

??????

 

Data.

 

im not going to obtain data for eveyr tank because i dont need to since it's so blatantly obvious. part of my job as an engineer is to recognize problems BEFORE SPENDING TONS OF TIME gathering and inrepreting data.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then maybe don't start off a thread by trashing opinions and glorifying data if you can't be bothered with data. And if it's so blatantly obvious, why start this thread? Just after some dumb nods of approval?

Motok0 #30 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 02:30

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 20:25, said:

 

Then maybe don't start off a thread by trashing opinions and glorifying data if you can't be bothered with data. And if it's so blatantly obvious, why start this thread? Just after some dumb nods of approval?

 

if i can see the issue with < 5 k battles without even obtaining data and then upon obtaining the data and being proven right,  maybe the dumb nods of approval are actually smart nods of approval, because if you dont notice some of these issues then you are obviously blind or stupid.

 

Black prince clearly needs a buff or the other t7 heavies need a nerf, the easier thing would be to buff the black prince, obviously.

 

Want me to continue down the list? i bet "my opinions" will be pretty justified with the data.

 

 

 



WorldConqueror #31 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 02:48

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 21 2017 - 02:30, said:

 

if i can see the issue with < 5 k battles without even obtaining data and then upon obtaining the data and being proven right,  maybe the dumb nods of approval are actually smart nods of approval, because if you dont notice some of these issues then you are obviously blind or stupid.

 

Black prince clearly needs a buff or the other t7 heavies need a nerf, the easier thing would be to buff the black prince, obviously.

 

Want me to continue down the list? i bet "my opinions" will be pretty justified with the data.

 

 

 

 

You still don't get it do you? An opinion can be a correct opinion but it's still an opinion til backed up with facts. That's why I quoted your OP earlier, since you pointed it out yourself then immediately forgot it. Yes some tanks perform better than others. But how much, in what areas? We can all come in and say x tank is better than y. Where does that get us?

 

(btw i meant dumb as in mute not stupid you dumbo)



Motok0 #32 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 02:53

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 20:48, said:

 

You still don't get it do you? An opinion can be a correct opinion but it's still an opinion til backed up with facts. That's why I quoted your OP earlier, since you pointed it out yourself then immediately forgot it. Yes some tanks perform better than others. But how much, in what areas? We can all come in and say x tank is better than y. Where does that get us?

 

(btw i meant dumb as in mute not stupid you dumbo)

 

Theres data on some things, not ALL, but in this case its an easy comparison since all of the t7 heavies are about the same physical size and speed (my point is it's not like the black prince zooms around so it's damage and those kind of stats will suck - physical size is a detriment as larger tanks are easier targets for arty etc, which is part of the reason the e25 is so strong).

 

i dont have data on damage blocked but its not like the black prince has the best armor of t7 heavies. its also slow and has poor camo. it's also 13/13 in credit earning of all t7 heavies. so many measurable variables and the non measured ones say it sucks too.

 

 

So i think its safe to say, the black prince underperforms, hardcore, relative to other t7 heavies.

 

The odd/SCARY thing is i dont see why WG cant just give it a little love (maybe they are unaware?) BUT clearly it sucks in so many areas, a +150 hp buff or anything would help, not exactly difficult things to improve. 

 

 

 


Edited by Motok0, Mar 21 2017 - 03:00.


Handies #33 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 04:19

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I love how the Op called me a stat padder and then totally ignored my response proving he is wrong... Op just likes to cry.

Edited by Handies, Mar 21 2017 - 04:20.


Pipinghot #34 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 04:22

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

Do you honestly think the black prince is on par with the T29?

I didn't say the T29 is "on par" with the Black Prince, stop twisting my words and stop making up imaginary arguments for you to argue with.

 

You described the difference as "infinite", which is a silly and useless description, I quantified the difference by pointing out that the T29 is 1.25% better than the Black Prince using your data source. It should be obvious to anyone who's capable of thought that "infinite" and "1.25%" are not the same thing, not even close. It also does not mean they are "on par", which is why I never said that and you're making up imaginary words that I never said. Until you can participate in your own thread like a rational adult you're not going to make much progress.

 

You provided the data source, which makes it glaringly obvious that the T29 is not "infinitely" better than the Black Prince, so when are you going to have rational, adult discussion about how big of a difference  that 1.25% really represents, and whether there are any additional causes for the differences other than making a blanket statement calling one tank "OP" or "UP". The truth is not that simple, if you want only simple answers then you're doomed to be wrong.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

Do I need to go on? The funny thing is im not a veteran of this game but its not exactly difficult to see which tanks suck and which are good, because the TRASH TANKS ARE NEVER IN ANY GAMES, WHILE EVERY T5 GAME HAS MULTIPLE T67s in it.

I never said that there are not any OP tanks, I never said there are not any UP tanks, again you're arguing against things I never said, which is getting you nowhere and making you look foolish. What I did was ask you to make your claims, try to back them up with something other than rantings and feelings, and then have a rational discussion where people can make points and counter-points.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

How often do you see a foch in a T10 game?

Since you're asking - pretty frequently. I've seen at least 10 of them in the last week that I noticed out of roughly 20 Tier X battles. So out of the 600 tanks that took part in those 20 battles, that means roughly 1/60 of them were Fochs, which seems about right for a tank that is ranked 27th out of 46 for Tier X tanks.

 

And, based on the context of your question, since you're implying that the Foch is underpowered, being ranked 27/46 isn't that extreme, it's barely in the lower half.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

How often do you see a leopard 1 in a T10 game?

Since you're asking... about the same amount, I've run into 8-12 Leopards in the last week (again, proabably about 10 of them), which ends up with the same math as the Foch.

 

Again, pretty reasonable for a tank that is ranked 26/46 for Tier X's.

 

You are proposing the Foch and the Leopard as being under powered, but the T57 has a worse Win Rate then both of them and yet no one would describe the T57 as underpowered, clearly you are missing something in your "analysis", if it can even be called that, you are failing to understand why certain tanks have the rankings and the reputation that they do, which means you actually don't understand what it takes to balance tanks.

 

You don't understand the data, you don't understand the underlying causes, so it should be obvious even to you that you're jumping to some wrong conclusions.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

How often do you see an m53/m55 relative to other artys?

Somewhat more often than other Tier IX, or even the Tier X arty, which is funny considering that the Tier IX BatChat arty both the Tier IX & X Conquerer arties have better Win Rates. Clearly the things that people "know" are not always true. The M53/55 is more popular than some other arties, in spite of the fact that he other arties perform better.

 

What you are continuing to miss in this discussion is context. Why are some tanks seemingly OP or UP, are they OP/UP for only certain segments of the player base and if so which players? Are there reasons that some tanks are better ranked than others? Why do players (like yourself) make bad judgements about which tanks are OP/UP, and how to balance them? You clearly don't have a good understanding of all the pieces, but that doesn't stop you from frothing at the mouth with your bad ideas and bad conclusions.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

Why is this hard for you to comprehend?

You should ask yourself that question, because you are definitely not getting it.

View PostMotok0, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:36, said:

There are tanks that everyone knows suck while others are deemed very good.

There are many things that "everyone knows" that are wrong and that is the problem, your problem specifically. You are so sure of things that are demonstrably untrue that you consistently don't stop to listen or learn, you don't acknowledge your own ignorance on the topic(s) or accept that there are limits to your understanding, but instead you spew a constant litany of complaints and criticisms that are too often demonstrably wrong. Your entire time in this game you've made false claim after false claim after false claim, but somehow getting constantly debunked hasn't taught you anything.

 

You are still deep in the learning phases of this game, but that hasn't stopped you from attempting to lecture everyone on how the game works. In just over 3 month you have well over 1,000 posts, which is just an insane rate of posting, most of which are a stream of misinformed complaints about a game that you refuse to learn to understand. One wonders when you'll have enough humility to learn from people who understand the game better than you, rather than trying preach from your pulpit of ignorance.

 

At long last, Senator, have you left no sense of decency?

 

p.s. After completing this post I saw that you finally included some actual data in your replies to WorldConquerer, there's hope for you yet.


Edited by Pipinghot, Mar 21 2017 - 04:35.


Motok0 #35 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 13:00

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View PostHandies, on Mar 20 2017 - 22:19, said:

I love how the Op called me a stat padder and then totally ignored my response proving he is wrong... Op just likes to cry.

 

i dont really care if youre a stat padder or not, the point is you added nothing to the thread except "i like to cry" 

Handies #36 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 14:26

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 21 2017 - 05:00, said:

 

i dont really care if youre a stat padder or not, the point is you added nothing to the thread except "i like to cry" 

 

This thread was clearly about the 252u again... You just worded it to make it sound not so obvious.  Maybe if you improved yourself and got out of low tiers, you would realize the Defender isn't all that...

Edited by Handies, Mar 21 2017 - 14:32.


Motok0 #37 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 15:17

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View PostHandies, on Mar 21 2017 - 08:26, said:

 

This thread was clearly about the 252u again... You just worded it to make it sound not so obvious.  Maybe if you improved yourself and got out of low tiers, you would realize the Defender isn't all that...

 

? i have t9 and t10 tanks.

 

Defender wrecks everything at t8.

 

 



Handies #38 Posted Mar 22 2017 - 00:03

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View PostMotok0, on Mar 21 2017 - 07:17, said:

 

? i have t9 and t10 tanks.

 

Defender wrecks everything at t8.

 

 

 

Then why do you play tier 6 everyday? Defender does not wreck everything at tier 8. If you only had more than 3 tanks with 200+ battles at dark green, you would know better. 





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