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Since we are carrying on about the Defender...


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Scorpiany #41 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 01:02

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:32, said:

As for the rest, I dunno, where was your concern for balance when you were buying the Skorp? I'm sure I can cherry pick features of that vehicle too.

 

Where was my concern for game balance? How about right here? http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/509570-★-rheinmetall-skorpion-g-review-the-venomous-assassin-★/

 

I clearly pointed out that it was on the over-powered side, and that it was too good for a Premium tank. I used harsher language about it earlier in other posts, but got shut down by WG for it ("Not something a Community Contributor should say"... Obviously I don't care about that anymore; I'm going to be as honest as I can be now).

 

And I didn't buy the Skorpion G - WarGaming gave it to me. I didn't even have an opportunity to say yes or no to it - It just showed up in my Garage (I will admit, I still would have said yes to review it and to mountain goat with it). And yes, I enjoy the tank... But I also actively acknowledge that it was over-tuned for a Premium vehicle. However, the Skorp G at least had downsides compared to tech tree vehicles - Primarily the massive lack of armor and camo (Rhm's entire tank is smaller than the Skorp G's hull, and has double the camo values).

 

The Defender is even more out of line than even the Skorpion G was. I had fully hoped that WG would realize their mistake with the Skorp G and not go down further that path. They didn't, and continued introducing better and better Premiums.



Bolo_MkXX_Tremendous_DMD #42 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 01:04

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I disagree.  I don't fear Defenders even when they are in a tough spot to dig out.  A Skorpion G is a threat from the unknown and a very serious one.  Much more dangerous to any tank class.

MemeFlerp #43 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 03:06

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 16:57, said:

 

Did you specify standard ammo? No? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

Look dude maybe you should think before you post. In case you haven't noticed tomatoes love to latch on to anyone with half decent stats that somewhat agrees with whatever is their current flavour of the month gripe. So you coming in and saying 'angle it down and no tier 10 can pen it' is very quickly going to become the received wisdom around here if someone doesn't point it out. (BTW that pic was also for illustration that only at that absurb angle does the whole thing approach 280 effective). But "hey", maybe throw in "more" random bold and "quotemarks" to try and save your critical omission.

So your argument breaks down to t10s spamming premium have a chance to pen it.   So its not OP.

Are you stoned?



WorldConqueror #44 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 03:10

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View PostMemeFlerp, on Mar 21 2017 - 03:06, said:

So your argument breaks down to t10s spamming premium have a chance to pen it.   So its not OP.

Are you stoned?

 

You dumb [edited]. 10s only need prem when it's on that ridiculous angle that Scorpiany proposed. Read. Think. Please.

MemeFlerp #45 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 03:18

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 21:10, said:

 

You dumb [edited]. 10s only need prem when it's on that ridiculous angle that Scorpiany proposed. Read. Think. Please.

Why dont you try and think?  When a tank 2 tiers higher requires premium ammo to pen the "weakspot",  you think there is nothing wrong.  The question is not are you a moron, its how much of one are you.  

Aim for the tiny cupolas?  Yeah that works if you are facing huging it and the defender remains perfectly still. So you trade 1 bounce for 440 damage when you are penned by auto aimed shots.   yeah that will work.  Good plan dope.  Or maybe go for the sides.  Oh wait nope it has some of the strongest t8 side armor also.  Lets not forget that horrible dpm which is actually greater than the is3s. 

 

And lets just get down to plain facts.

T8 most damage check.  T8 bounces >50 of all shots, check.  Winrate of all players in the tank >54%.

No not OP at all.


Edited by MemeFlerp, Mar 21 2017 - 03:19.


WorldConqueror #46 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 03:34

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View PostMemeFlerp, on Mar 21 2017 - 03:18, said:

Why dont you try and think?  When a tank 2 tiers higher requires premium ammo to pen the "weakspot",  you think there is nothing wrong.  The question is not are you a moron, its how much of one are you.  

Aim for the tiny cupolas?  Yeah that works if you are facing huging it and the defender remains perfectly still. So you trade 1 bounce for 440 damage when you are penned by auto aimed shots.   yeah that will work.  Good plan dope.  Or maybe go for the sides.  Oh wait nope it has some of the strongest t8 side armor also.  Lets not forget that horrible dpm which is actually greater than the is3s. 

 

And lets just get down to plain facts.

T8 most damage check.  T8 bounces >50 of all shots, check.  Winrate of all players in the tank >54%.

No not OP at all.

 

BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE WEAKSPOT. Scorpiany said it is easy to get the whole front to 280 effective and that that is unpennable for tier 10s. So I 1. put the tank on a ridiculous angle to actually get the thing to be 280 effective, and then 2. showed that even then it can be penned. Show me 1 Defender that you've fought that has used that angle to get 280 effective please. The weakspot is the lower plate which is 210 effective straight on. If you think tier 10s can't pen that then there is something wrong with you. Likewise if you think the Defender sides are actually strong there's no helping you.

 

When idiots like you finally learn how to kill one those numbers will drop, don't you think? Or I guess you can just continue on as you are, keep feeding them free damage and help maintain those numbers. :)



Bolo_MkXX_Tremendous_DMD #47 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 04:00

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I bet this is the conversation everyone had about IS-7 years ago.

BudTugly #48 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 04:19

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View PostScorpiany, on Mar 20 2017 - 13:18, said:

 

Those cupolas can only be hit when you're face-hugging the vehicle. It's ridiculously difficult to hit them otherwise.

 

And the armor is stupidly hard for even Tier 10's to penetrate - If you angle the hull even slightly downwards, the entire front of the Defender, both upper plate and lower plate, become 280mm effective... Meaning even most Tier 10's will significantly struggle to penetrate it anywhere reliably with just the slightest downward angle if they shoot standard... And even if they load Premium ammunition, they're not guaranteed to pen anywhere.

 

It's game design which is absolutely, ridiculously bad.

If they tilt down can't you just shoot the roof?  Sorry if somebody else asked.



Scorpiany #49 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 06:54

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 19:10, said:

 

You dumb [edited]. 10s only need prem when it's on that ridiculous angle that Scorpiany proposed. Read. Think. Please.

 

It's not a ridiculous angle at all, and I keep seeing Defenders put themselves at that angle - It's super annoying to be against them in my 113 and then look like an idiot waiting for them to move their tank, or keep missing their cupolas. It's a very slight downtilt in the reality of battle; since you're always shoot down at the lower plate in the first place. Because of that, the tank itself doesn't have to be pointing very far down at all.

 

And then same Tier tanks, Defender can just angle to the side and bounce them all with complete ease. The lower plate at its absolute flattest, has the same armor as same Tier medium tanks have penetration values... How does that make any sense for balancing purposes? This forces you to load Premium, since you will almost never get that perfect angle - And all the mediums with 212 pen get screwed... Even heavies with 225, Defender's lower usually will be angled against them at a minimum of 230mm effective. If they use terrain well, or have a piece of cover to just hide their side, they can increase that angle even further.

 

And that's the "weakest part". The cupolas are never going to be hit even close to reliably, you can hardly get a good shot at them. Unlike other tanks like the IS-3 or IS-6, where if you miss the cupolas you can still overmatch the roof with larger guns, the Defender doesn't have a roof overmatch, since the roof is 60mm thick at an auto-bounce angle.

 

The "weakest" part of the armor requires same Tier tanks to either get lucky, or load Premium... Without special angling. With angling, even higher Tier tanks can struggle.



deathsheads #50 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 08:03

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Actually, years ago we complained IS4 was stronger than IS7.

4502B was ABSOLUTE trash and was laughed at, Maus had mud flaps that could be penned by tier 4s due to model error.  

 

IS7 rarely got complaints overall, it was always well balanced and most of the old guard felt that it needed a slight buff as early as the T110e5 and french tanks, now the IS7 is just left so far behind it makes me sad.  But soon.

 

Defender though is op as hell...Take an IS7, thin it down a bit, drop 50 alpha, and drop it down to tier 8 where it two shots almost every tier 6...On average...Lord have mercy...



Kevlar1972 #51 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 11:38

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I juzt saw a deep red tomato park his defender in the middle of a field and just sit there and bounce 4k dmg.  He didn't move but it was impossible to hit his cupolas at range and his lower plate was covered. He stalled 4 much higher rated tankers by doing absolutely nothing but sit there and take shots and spot for arty and hidden tds.  That tank is ridiculous and no you can't snipe weak spots even fully zoomed in with accurate guns from 250 meters or so.

WhatsThisBoxFor #52 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 11:44

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View PostKevlar1972, on Mar 21 2017 - 11:38, said:

I juzt saw a deep red tomato park his defender in the middle of a field and just sit there and bounce 4k dmg. He didn't move but it was impossible to hit his cupolas at range and his lower plate was covered. He stalled 4 much higher rated tankers by doing absolutely nothing but sit there and take shots and spot for arty and hidden tds. That tank is ridiculous and no you can't snipe weak spots even fully zoomed in with accurate guns from 250 meters or so.

Replay?

 

Otherwise, I'm chalking it up to the people facing him being hopelessly incompetent. That's the most likely case.



MemeFlerp #53 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 12:40

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 20 2017 - 21:34, said:

 

BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE WEAKSPOT. Scorpiany said it is easy to get the whole front to 280 effective and that that is unpennable for tier 10s. So I 1. put the tank on a ridiculous angle to actually get the thing to be 280 effective, and then 2. showed that even then it can be penned. Show me 1 Defender that you've fought that has used that angle to get 280 effective please. The weakspot is the lower plate which is 210 effective straight on. If you think tier 10s can't pen that then there is something wrong with you. Likewise if you think the Defender sides are actually strong there's no helping you.

 

When idiots like you finally learn how to kill one those numbers will drop, don't you think? Or I guess you can just continue on as you are, keep feeding them free damage and help maintain those numbers. :)

So the giant lfp is not the weakspot?  Seems to be that is the general jist of those too stupid to understand simple facts.   Dude you are pathetic.  210 straight on huh, I suppose in the world you live in players don't move and let you take optimal shots?

 

Facts ate facts.  Defender is overperforming at EVERY SKILL LEVEL.  That you are too stupid to see this, shows a lot about your mental capabilities.  



WorldConqueror #54 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 16:55

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View PostMemeFlerp, on Mar 21 2017 - 12:40, said:

So the giant lfp is not the weakspot?  Seems to be that is the general jist of those too stupid to understand simple facts.   Dude you are pathetic.  210 straight on huh, I suppose in the world you live in players don't move and let you take optimal shots?

 

Facts ate facts.  Defender is overperforming at EVERY SKILL LEVEL.  That you are too stupid to see this, shows a lot about your mental capabilities.  

 

You literally said "When a tank 2 tiers higher requires premium ammo to pen the "weakspot",  you think there is nothing wrong. ", obviously in reference to the picture I posted in response to Scorpiany showing the tank at a weird angle to get 280 effective and showing that 62A heat can pen the upper plate at the angle. If you are actually now talking about the LFP, please tell me which tier 10 has less than 210 pen on their standard ammo. It helps when you follow the context of the conversation. :)

WhatsThisBoxFor #55 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 17:27

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 21 2017 - 16:55, said:

 

You literally said "When a tank 2 tiers higher requires premium ammo to pen the "weakspot",  you think there is nothing wrong. ", obviously in reference to the picture I posted in response to Scorpiany showing the tank at a weird angle to get 280 effective and showing that 62A heat can pen the upper plate at the angle. If you are actually now talking about the LFP, please tell me which tier 10 has less than 210 pen on their standard ammo. It helps when you follow the context of the conversation. :)

Maybe he's thinking of BC25t mounting the 90mm F3 ;)



MemeFlerp #56 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 18:31

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View PostWorldConqueror, on Mar 21 2017 - 10:55, said:

 

You literally said "When a tank 2 tiers higher requires premium ammo to pen the "weakspot",  you think there is nothing wrong. ", obviously in reference to the picture I posted in response to Scorpiany showing the tank at a weird angle to get 280 effective and showing that 62A heat can pen the upper plate at the angle. If you are actually now talking about the LFP, please tell me which tier 10 has less than 210 pen on their standard ammo. It helps when you follow the context of the conversation. :)

Yes it certainly does.  Why are you incapable of doing it?  200+ armor is its "weakspot"  going over 280 with ceryain angling.  Requiring t10s firing premium to pen wit any reliability.  But in your clueless world, this is okay.   Yeah I guess in your delusional world,  things like having to shoot DOWN to hit that weakspot doesn't affect pen.  And of course players will let you square up for your perfectly aimed shot instead of wiggling the Lfp that you are aiming at.  Again INCREASING that effective armor.

  

Yeah try and keep up.  How do t6, 7 and 8 tanks deal with it?  Oh your answer is "dont,  let some one else"  well SFB what happens when there is no one else?   No tier 9 or 10s?  Or when one goes where its not expected?  Oh run away?  From a tank that is faster than most other t8 heavies?  Yeah thats a plan.   

 

Try and pay attention now.  All skill level of players, in all tier matches are bouncing >52% of shots.  Does that tell you you are full of it?  If the t9s and 10s are go thru it lime butter,  that leads to t6-8 are extremely rare pens.  

But dont let facts get in the way of your stupidity.  



WorldConqueror #57 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 18:38

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ok sorry i didn't realise defenders got siege mode so they can angle up and down at will sorry

UR_TANK_SPLODED #58 Posted Mar 21 2017 - 19:55

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So to sum up, the LFP is the weakEST part frontally, and if you are in a same tier tank you will butter it with premium ammo, IF they are sitting in the open and not raging toward you adjusting that angle and laughing maniacally. You can also pen the "peppering of weakspots" which are cupolas with about 150ish pen, again if they are not raging at you while envoking the hand of Stalin.  You can also out DPM the vehicle, that is, if they dont have the slightest clue about how sidescraping works and what it means to trade shots with a tank that can highroll over 500, easily.  

 

So anything but a T32 in a foxhole gonna stand your ground and wait for a 1v1 brawl with this thing? 

 

About the best thing an average player can do against the 252 is to slow it down, dig it out, try to trade even on HP, and die for the team.



oldewolfe #59 Posted Mar 22 2017 - 01:18

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I can say that it doesn't Require Premium Rounds to Pen it from the Upper Tier Tanks, even in it's own Tier.....      But how can anyone tell if it does or doesn't with so many Premium Rounds being thrown about as it is....      I got Gold Spammed in a Tier 2 Match.....     And in the Upper Tiers, how many Guns use APCR as a Standard Load, anything with the L7 does, the Swede TD's do, add to that the fact Any Yahoo with a Few Credits can Load it up....

 

Only main difference between the 252 and my IS 3 that I see is my IS 3 Spends more Credits without Premium Ammo than my 252 does with it....       Some of it is the Benefit of Premium versus Grinder, but the Upper Tiers are Money Pits without the Premiums to run them....       I st an Observation on my Part....



WhatsThisBoxFor #60 Posted Mar 22 2017 - 02:16

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View Postoldewolfe, on Mar 22 2017 - 01:18, said:

I can say that it doesn't Require Premium Rounds to Pen it from the Upper Tier Tanks, even in it's own Tier.....      But how can anyone tell if it does or doesn't with so many Premium Rounds being thrown about as it is....      I got Gold Spammed in a Tier 2 Match.....     And in the Upper Tiers, how many Guns use APCR as a Standard Load, anything with the L7 does, the Swede TD's do, add to that the fact Any Yahoo with a Few Credits can Load it up....

 

Only main difference between the 252 and my IS 3 that I see is my IS 3 Spends more Credits without Premium Ammo than my 252 does with it....       Some of it is the Benefit of Premium versus Grinder, but the Upper Tiers are Money Pits without the Premiums to run them....       I st an Observation on my Part....

Why do You Keep capitalizing Certain words For No reason throughout the Sentence?






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