Jump to content


Science question for smart people


  • Please log in to reply
112 replies to this topic

Mudman24 #21 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 05:49

    Major

  • Players
  • 36582 battles
  • 12,162
  • Member since:
    04-06-2012

View PostI_Like_Tuwtles, on Mar 22 2017 - 22:36, said:

I'm pretty sure the 99.whatever% is just bs.

This was my thought. 



RamaLamaDingDong2 #22 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 05:56

    Major

  • -Players-
  • 28579 battles
  • 4,182
  • Member since:
    03-02-2015
Yawn...great topic...thanks Mud

mattwong #23 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 07:15

    Major

  • Players
  • 30470 battles
  • 17,333
  • Member since:
    03-03-2012

View PostI_Like_Tuwtles, on Mar 22 2017 - 23:36, said:

I'm pretty sure the 99.whatever% is just bs.

 

It's not BS.  Do you really think scientists just BS things like that?  You can send away a sample for lab testing to get bacteria counts, and believe it or not, they actually have real means of doing this.  They don't just make it up.

 

The technique is actually quite clever: what they do is isolate a portion of a surface with a cylinder which is tightly glued or otherwise secured to the surface, then they can pour in water.  They agitate the water so that living bacteria on the surface go into it.  Then they take the water, dilute it heavily, and then put it into an agar plate (a plate containing the ingredients necessary to encourage bacterial growth).  Then they give the bacteria some time to multiply, and then count the CFUs, ie- "colony forming units".

 

If they do two tests, and confirm that one test shows, say, 10000 times less bacteria than the other, then they can say that the sterilizing agent killed 99.99% of the bacteria.



Allegra #24 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 07:36

    First lieutenant

  • Beta Testers
  • 8142 battles
  • 630
  • [W-S] W-S
  • Member since:
    12-17-2010

View PostMudman24, on Mar 23 2017 - 12:11, said:

How do you even do a test and find that you killed all the germs but .111% of them? The near mathematical impossibility of this makes my head hurt. Over 99.999%.

 

I think you may find that it is simply '42'.

 

Cheers



Klaatu_Nicto #25 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 17:14

    Major

  • Players
  • 44044 battles
  • 10,753
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View Postmattwong, on Mar 22 2017 - 22:15, said:

 

It's not BS.  Do you really think scientists just BS things like that? 

 

Global Warming Alarmists Caught Doctoring '97-Percent Consensus...

www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/05/30/global-warming-a...

May 30, 2013 ... Global warming alarmists and their allies in the liberal media have been caught doctoring the results of a widely cited paper asserting there is a ...

 

The pressure to fudge medical research findings - ABC News ...

www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-25/scott-selling-science/5043620...

Oct 24, 2013 ... "The percentage of scientific articles retracted because of fraud has .... put simply a firearm destroyed in 96 continues to kill in 97 and 98 but not 99. ...... impacted on the scientific concensus about climate change however it

   

This scientist nearly went to jail for making up data - The...

www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2...

Apr 1, 2016 ... An Australian neuroscientist just pleaded guilty to fraud but received a suspended sentence for his research misconduct.

 

Why Do Scientists Commit Fraud? - Slate

www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/08/fr...

Aug 6, 2014 ... One of the biggest science scandals in recent history took place at one of Japan's most prestigious research institutions, the Riken Center for ...

 

US vaccine researcher sentenced to prison for fraud : Nature News...

www.nature.com/news/us-vaccine-researcher-sentenced-to-priso...

Jul 1, 2015 ... Rare is the scientist who goes to prison on research misconduct charges. .... of such punishment deters people from committing misconduct.

 

Scientific misconduct - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_misconduct

Scientific misconduct is the violation of the standard codes of scholarly conduct and ethical ... That means that even if a scientist does falsify data, they can expect to get away with it – or at least claim ..... Stapel committed scientific fraud in at least 55 of his papers, as well as in 10 Ph.D. dissertations written by his students.

 

Recent Articles | Scientific Fraud | The Scientist Magazine®

www.the-scientist.com/?articles.list/tagNo/2642/tags/scienti...

Several initiatives aim to improve research integrity in the country, but recent high -profile cases of misconduct highlight a lingering problem.

 

When Scientists Commit Fraud, It's 'Scientific Misconduct' –...

www.inquisitr.com/2517436/when-scientists-commit-fraud-its-s...

Oct 24, 2015 ... Until recently, when a researcher commits what would be considered fraud, it's dealt with by the scientific community and labeled "scientific ...

 

Stanford researchers uncover patterns in how scientists lie about...

news.stanford.edu/2015/11/16/fraud-science-papers-111615/

Nov 16, 2015 ... Scientists who commit fraud have similar, but even more subtle, tells, and a pair of Stanford researchers have cracked the writing patterns of ...

 

When Scientists Commit Fraud - The New York Times

www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/opinion/When-Scientists-C...

Jul 16, 2014 ... Readers, including a scientist and a lawyer who defends the accused, respond to an Op-Ed article.

 

How Often Do Scientists Commit Fraud? | Science | Smithsonian

www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-often-do-scientist...

Oct 1, 2012 ... The evidence says scientists are pretty honest. New techniques could make it easier for scientific fabricators to be caught.

 

How Many Scientists Fabricate and Falsify Research? A Systematic...

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.00...

May 29, 2009 ... ... with which scientists fabricate and falsify data, or commit other forms of ... There can be little doubt about the fraudulent nature of fabrication, ...

 

1,500 scientists lift the lid on reproducibility
Survey sheds light on the ‘crisis’ rocking research.
http://www.nature.com/news/1-500-scientists-lift-the-lid-on-reproducibility-1.19970

Edited by Klaatu_Nicto, Mar 23 2017 - 17:16.


Mudman24 #26 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 17:27

    Major

  • Players
  • 36582 battles
  • 12,162
  • Member since:
    04-06-2012
Holy linksperg Kentral. Please stop trying to derail this into a political argument.

Ikanator #27 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 17:31

    First lieutenant

  • -Players-
  • 11010 battles
  • 660
  • Member since:
    06-23-2016
I don't think he was. Just demonstrating that sometimes "science" isn't as fact and logic based as it should be. Now, to the extent that sort of thing is more damaging to one side of the political spectrum than the other, then maybe one group has more of a problem with facts and logic in general.

Klaatu_Nicto #28 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 17:39

    Major

  • Players
  • 44044 battles
  • 10,753
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View PostMudman24, on Mar 22 2017 - 18:41, said:

How do you even do a test and find that you killed all the germs but .111% of them? The near mathematical impossibility of this makes my head hurt. Over 99.999%?

Spoiler

 

 

What does the phrase “Kills 99.9% of Germs” REALLY mean?
http://www.nycoproducts.com/news/what-does-the-phrase-kills-99-9-of-germs-really-mean/

 

What happens if you use 99.9% effective sanitizer twice? :D
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/articles/questions/what-happens-if-you-use-999-effective-sanitizer-twice

 

Hmmm....is the naked scientist related to this guy?

Spoiler

 

 

Listerine has been on the market since 1879. Its formula has never changed. Ever since its introduction it has been represented as being beneficial in certain respects for colds, cold symptoms, and sore throats. Direct advertising to the consumer, including the cold claims as well as others, began in 1921.

 

The FTC order further requires Warner-Lambert to disclose in future Listerine advertisements that: "Contrary to prior advertising, Listerine will not help prevent colds or sore throats or lessen their severity."
http://openjurist.org/562/f2d/749/warner-lambert-company-v-federal-trade-commission

 

Btw, before Listerine was marketed as a mouth wash it was being sold as a floor cleaner.


Edited by Klaatu_Nicto, Mar 23 2017 - 18:01.


Gunadie #29 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 20:58

    Major

  • Players
  • 44477 battles
  • 4,876
  • Member since:
    08-20-2011

Wow This Thread ^

They remove the Map discussion subsection

And now we get to discuss germicidal soap and the validity

and effectiveness claims.

Is this the direction War Gaming has gone now....



Horribad_At_Tanks #30 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 21:06

    Major

  • Players
  • 2268 battles
  • 6,263
  • Member since:
    11-07-2012

View PostMudman24, on Mar 23 2017 - 11:27, said:

Holy linksperg Kentral. Please stop trying to derail this into a political argument.

 

Those aren't political links. Every one shows scientists flubbing up the numbers for personal gain or to maintain a narrative which has been going on for as long as scientists have been competing for research funding. The difference nowadays is the internet and the ability to bring the most obscure theory into the light of day with plenty of pie charts and numberwang to dazzle the eyes to forward an agenda be it political or corporate or social or religious etc etc etc.

 

As to the original question anything after 99.9% is marketing bling as no one is going to contest it. Much like a person getting hit with a flamethrower is just as crispy as one hit with a napalm strike.



Klaatu_Nicto #31 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 21:09

    Major

  • Players
  • 44044 battles
  • 10,753
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View PostGunadie, on Mar 23 2017 - 11:58, said:

Wow This Thread ^

They remove the Map discussion subsection

And now we get to discuss germicidal soap and the validity

and effectiveness claims.

Is this the direction War Gaming has gone now....

 

You use the germicidal soap, whose effectiveness is exaggerated, which does not kill the flesh eating bateria so you lose your arms which means you can't play the game which means you can't spend money on the game so ya, it makes sense.

 

;)



mattwong #32 Posted Mar 23 2017 - 21:42

    Major

  • Players
  • 30470 battles
  • 17,333
  • Member since:
    03-03-2012

View PostIkanator, on Mar 23 2017 - 11:31, said:

I don't think he was. Just demonstrating that sometimes "science" isn't as fact and logic based as it should be. Now, to the extent that sort of thing is more damaging to one side of the political spectrum than the other, then maybe one group has more of a problem with facts and logic in general.

 

Right, except that he has no idea what he's talking about.  He has no scientific background, he is an elderly gentleman whose cognitive skills do not permit learning such a subject at an advanced age, and his arguments on global warming are a joke, which no major scientific association in the world takes seriously.  Most of his arguments are based on misuse of cherry-picked statistics, and tired political websites whose contents were debunked by real scientists years ago.

Klaatu_Nicto #33 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 18:09

    Major

  • Players
  • 44044 battles
  • 10,753
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View Postmattwong, on Mar 23 2017 - 12:42, said:

 

Right, except that he has no idea what he's talking about.  He has no scientific background, he is an elderly gentleman whose cognitive skills do not permit learning such a subject at an advanced age, and his arguments on global warming are a joke, which no major scientific association in the world takes seriously.  Most of his arguments are based on misuse of cherry-picked statistics, and tired political websites whose contents were debunked by real scientists years ago.

 

You know well my scientific background and you know most of what I post does not come from political sites. You are a great example of the fraud and dishonesty that comes from the proponents of the 'human caused global warming' theory.



Horribad_At_Tanks #34 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 18:26

    Major

  • Players
  • 2268 battles
  • 6,263
  • Member since:
    11-07-2012

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Mar 24 2017 - 12:09, said:

 

You know well my scientific background and you know most of what I post does not come from political sites. You are a great example of the fraud and dishonesty that comes from the proponents of the 'human caused global warming' theory.

 



mattwong #35 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 18:31

    Major

  • Players
  • 30470 battles
  • 17,333
  • Member since:
    03-03-2012

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Mar 24 2017 - 12:09, said:

You know well my scientific background and you know most of what I post does not come from political sites. You are a great example of the fraud and dishonesty that comes from the proponents of the 'human caused global warming' theory.

 

You have no scientific background, and everything you post comes from political sites.  This is what's wrong with the Internet age: people like you, who think you can self-teach yourself a thermodynamic theory without ever having taken a university course in thermodynamics.  You're so ignorant that you don't even realize it's a thermodynamics theory.  You think it's about weather.



Horribad_At_Tanks #36 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 18:38

    Major

  • Players
  • 2268 battles
  • 6,263
  • Member since:
    11-07-2012

View Postmattwong, on Mar 24 2017 - 12:31, said:

 You're so ignorant that you don't even realize it's a thermodynamics theory.  You think it's about weather.

 

Hmmm, thermodynamics are the primary driver of our climate ergo 'the weather' mate. ;)



Klaatu_Nicto #37 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 19:12

    Major

  • Players
  • 44044 battles
  • 10,753
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View Postmattwong, on Mar 24 2017 - 09:31, said:

 

You have no scientific background, and everything you post comes from political sites.  This is what's wrong with the Internet age: people like you, who think you can self-teach yourself a thermodynamic theory without ever having taken a university course in thermodynamics.  You're so ignorant that you don't even realize it's a thermodynamics theory.  You think it's about weather.

 

The first time you tried this tactic I posted a picture of my college text books one of which was for the year long course in physics which, as you know, covers thermodynamics. And, you also know I used to work with scientists and engineers at Weyerhaeuser's R&D facility in Federal Way, Washington State.

 

You Mike are a fraud.

 

 

 



Sgt_King_Gunner #38 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 19:18

    Captain

  • -Players-
  • 27392 battles
  • 1,511
  • [M-I-T] M-I-T
  • Member since:
    04-01-2015

This thread demonstrates a good example of using science and data for public relations. 

 

A better question than "how do they determine that germicidal soap kills 99.99% of germs" but, rather how effective are the standard soaps at killing germs. Or, to put it another way, are germicidal soaps any more effective than just soap.

 

https://en.m.wikiped...ibacterial_soap

 

as as to the OP's question: 99.99% can often be measured. Sometime check out people like those at NIST who are determining natural constants to incredible accuracy. 



Mudman24 #39 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 20:37

    Major

  • Players
  • 36582 battles
  • 12,162
  • Member since:
    04-06-2012

View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Mar 24 2017 - 12:12, said:

 

The first time you tried this tactic I posted a picture of my college text books one of which was for the year long course in physics which, as you know, covers thermodynamics. And, you also know I used to work with scientists and engineers at Weyerhaeuser's R&D facility in Federal Way, Washington State.

 

You Mike are a fraud.

 

 

 

I don't know man, if I studied thermodynamics I would probably be able to make and argument about an issues rather that just posting 50 random links every couple hours. 



Klaatu_Nicto #40 Posted Mar 24 2017 - 20:58

    Major

  • Players
  • 44044 battles
  • 10,753
  • Member since:
    09-21-2012

View PostMudman24, on Mar 24 2017 - 11:37, said:

I don't know man, if I studied thermodynamics I would probably be able to make and argument about an issues rather that just posting 50 random links every couple hours. 

 

Five Reasons Why You Should Probably Stop Using Antibacterial Soap
As the FDA recently noted, antibacterial products are no more effective than soap and water, and could be dangerous
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-reasons-why-you-should-probably-stop-using-antibacterial-soap-180948078/




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users