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SPGs NEET TO STAY


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Scarwulf #1 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 01:53

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Here's my opinion on the whole debate concerning Self-Propelled Guns in World of Tanks:

   I think SPGs are harder to play than Tanks or Tank Destroyers.  Tanks and TDs have huge advantages over SPGs.  Compared to Tanks and TDs, SPGs are slow.  They move slow, they turn slow, they aim slow, and they reload slow.  Most SPGs have an aim time of 5 seconds compared to the Tank or TD aim speed of 1-2 seconds.  Most SPGs have a reload speed of 10-20 seconds, compared to 1-5 seconds for Tanks and TDs.  Tanks and TDs have heavy armor protection, SPGs don't.  The only real advantages SPGs have over Tanks or TDs is range and damage, and these advantages only work if the SPG has time to be accurate.  Players that complain about SPGs should try playing them to find out how frustrating they can be.  It's really hard to get kills with SPGs if you don't know what you're doing.  Mostly it takes a lot of guess-work.  If you shoot at a moving enemy you have to guess how far ahead to aim so that they will drive into the shell.  Most of the time you miss.  The good thing is that when you hit, you do a lot of damage.  A saving-grace for SPGs is that they can one-shot many tanks due to the high amount of damage.  Players that complain about SPGs stealing kills or not helping in the battle need to realize that it takes forever to aim an SPG.  Many SPGs have very limited ammo, so you can't waste a single shot.  One way SPG players learn to get kills is to fire at enemies that are sitting still.  This allows them to aim accurately.  When players complain about arty killing them, they need to reevaluate their own performance.  Most of the time they will find that they sat still too long and gave the arty a chance for a good shot.  Always remember that if you are spotted you will stay spotted until you move or hide again.  Don't sit in the same bush and hope you became invisible again because you'll probably get hit again.

   All three types of Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV) in WoT have different tactics that play to their strengths and weaknesses.  Tanks are generally fast and carry armor protection to stay alive in face-to-face battle.  TDs are built to hide and ambush the enemy with heavy firepower.  SPGs are built to sit back away from the front lines and give support to the Tanks and TDs.  In war, you don't play to the advantage of your opponent because it gets people killed.  Just like good soldiers use their strengths and advantages to defeat their enemy, WoT players need to learn to do the same with the AFVs they play.  You cannot play a tank like an SPG.  You cannot play a TD like a tank.  You cannot play an SPG like a tank.  You cannot play a light tank like a heavy.  Etc.  Each AFV has a niche.  Good players will find it to utilize the strengths of their AFV.

   Guaranteed victory in WoT matches comes when players work together with all three types of AFV.  When players understand the role their AFVs fill on their team and utilize the strengths of each type, their team becomes much more effective.  Without teamwork, WoT matches become brawls and bloodbaths, with players fighting over kills for their own experience and credit gain.  Most players don't seem to understand that working as a team will benefit the entire team.  Use of tactics and teamwork ensures players don't die needlessly and then blame their death on lack of support from the team.  They ensure players will support each other, guarding their teammate's back or flanking an enemy to confuse them.  Use of tactics and teamwork means not worrying about who got the kill and being satisfied with knowing that each player did their part to achieve victory for the team.

   SPGs are a vital component to the game experience of WoT.  Many soldiers have felt relief at the sound of incoming friendly arty, and many combat situations have been solved by calling in artillery support.  I have had many experiences in WoT in which I was supported by SPGs and we worked together to win.  Many times in matches I will come face to face with a heavier tank than I am.  Many times I will be outnumbered.  And many of these situations I have survived because I had the support of SPGs.  In these situations it doesn't matter if they get the kill or I do.  What matters is we worked as a team.  I have also had the opportunity to play my own SPGs.  Many matches I will not get any kills, but I will end the match damaging many opponents due to lending support to my teammates.

   Lastly, WoT is fun because it is a challenge.  This game requires players to learn how to effectively use AFVs of different types against other players.  Every new player starts at the bottom with tier 1 AFVs and decides which new ones to work toward and unlock.  Along the way players learn which AFVs they like the most and are most effective with.  As they play they also learn the tactics involved with each different AFV, and how to exploit their strengths and their enemy's weaknesses.  Instead of complaining about things and demanding that the WoT developers make changes, nerf, or remove things, players should spend more time learning how to better play the game.  Too many MMOGs have been ruined because players were too lazy to do the work involved to get the rewards, and instead complained until the developers altered the game and destroyed the enjoyable challenge they had created (Star Wars Galaxies is a prime example of this).  If players want things easy, they shouldn't play WoT.  WoT is fun because of the challenge, and the satisfaction you feel when you reach your next AFV should make the grind worth it.

   I love WoT.  I've been playing it since Beta.  I plan to play it as long as it sticks around, and it will stick around if players and fans work together to make it the most enjoyable gaming experience it can be for everyone.

L_G_Pool #2 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:02

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False.

*EDIT*
By popular demand, My reasoning.

SPG's are wrong because:
-God's eye Satellite view of battlefield
-No counter-battery ( Dev's fault not players)
-Pinpoint precision representing the latest in modern technology, in a game purported to be Late 1930's to early 1950's
-Retardedly massive damage, one shotting tanks. These two things turn off new players. who wants to play against invisible god spg's
-Encourage camping on certain map-types. (Dev's fault not players)
-No limit on SPG's per team. I have seen combined numbers exceeding 10 SPG's per map. (Dev's fault, not players)
-No direct fire penalties. Come on really, the crew of the SPG is going to hand crank the gun from near vertical to horizontal in a matter of seconds?


My solution? Add a player option to play with or without SPG's and let the players have some control over the games they play.

Scarwulf #3 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:03

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I get all that off my chest without a single spelling error and then misspell "need" in the title... sorry everyone.

Scarwulf #4 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:05

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View PostGraffen, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:02, said:

False.

If you're going to reply, please include an explanation.  "False" doesn't tell me anything about how you feel.

kjfett #5 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:06

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Quote

Compared to Tanks and TDs, SPGs are slow. They move slow, they turn slow, they aim slow, and they reload slow.

The limited arty I played (three in the German line) were not suffering for a lack of mobility or turning.  As for aiming and slow reloads, read on...

Quote

Most SPGs have an aim time of 5 seconds compared to the Tank or TD aim speed of 1-2 seconds. Most SPGs have a reload speed of 10-20 seconds, compared to 1-5 seconds for Tanks and TDs.


Aim time varies from nationality to size of the weapon.  The 152mm on the KV has a 25 second reload time.  Many of the larger caliber weapons have very long reload times and are certainly not 1 to 5 seconds.

Quote

Tanks and TDs have heavy armor protection, SPGs don't. The only real advantages SPGs have over Tanks or TDs is range and damage, and these advantages only work if the SPG has time to be accurate.


Some tanks have armor protection.  Most TDs have very poor armor protection.  Many mediums and all light tanks have very low armor.

Quote

Players that complain about SPGs should try playing them to find out how frustrating they can be.

Judging by little knowledge you displayed of other vehicles, I would have to counter with the same.  Before you protest the points tankers have against, arty, you may want to learn a little about them first.

I have to be honest, when your first paragraph is so full of holes, I just couldn't consider the rest as worth reading as I am sure it is based on the lacking knowldege and beliefs dsiplayed in the first.

Blizzard36 #6 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:06

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View PostGraffen, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:02, said:

False.
Might want to at least specify and refute what part you're saying is false if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Blizzard36 #7 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:08

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View Postkjfett, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:06, said:

The limited arty I played (three in the German line) were not suffering for a lack of mobility or turning.
That is one of the German SPG traits, thier little benifit to make up for thier poorer shell arc.

Time2Fly #8 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:08

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this
/sign.
i hope their not leavin

Kristine #9 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:10

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Beside the minor typo on the title. This is one good post / reason why artillery should stay forever in World of tanks.

Valkeiper #10 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:13

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Your post was correct and well written. Now, as the arty haters see it, You will get 'neg' until your rep score needs binoculars to see the bottom of feet.

Believe, I have gone thru it.

and I wouldn't change my approach at all.

Any time you look at that dropping rep, think of the people who are giving you the negs and wear it like the badge of honor it is.

:Smile_honoring:

snafu37 #11 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:14

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Only let two on each side MAX! when there's three or more it just completely ruins the match. Either this or give tier 6-8 a big damage nerf as they do way, way too much damage (in addition to a slight accuracy increase.) Personally, I wouldn't shed one Q over the complete removal of arty. On a side note, playing against arty isn't a "challenge". Tankers having to hug rocks while arty on the other side of the map rain down 1000 plus HP shells if I make one mistake is hardly a challenge for either of us. It's just plain stupid.

Valkeiper #12 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:16

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View PostNullArc11Ordo, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:05, said:

If you're going to reply, please include an explanation.  "False" doesn't tell me anything about how you feel.

LOL

His profile has been locked and still has a negative 39 rep.

He doesn't dare explain his statement for fear of revealing his stupidity.

:Smile_great:

Scarwulf #13 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:17

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View Postkjfett, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:06, said:

The limited arty I played (three in the German line) were not suffering for a lack of mobility or turning.  As for aiming and slow reloads, read on...



Aim time varies from nationality to size of the weapon.  The 152mm on the KV has a 25 second reload time.  Many of the larger caliber weapons have very long reload times and are certainly not 1 to 5 seconds.



Some tanks have armor protection.  Most TDs have very poor armor protection.  Many mediums and all light tanks have very low armor.



Judging by little knowledge you displayed of other vehicles, I would have to counter with the same.  Before you protest the points tankers have against, arty, you may want to learn a little about them first.

I have to be honest, when your first paragraph is so full of holes, I just couldn't consider the rest as worth reading as I am sure it is based on the lacking knowldege and beliefs dsiplayed in the first.


I appreciate your opinion, though I disagree.  In my own defense I was speaking more generally instead of a literally.  I admit I haven't played ALL the AFVs in the game, but I have played many, and enough to have a solid idea of game mechanics.  I am disappointed that you are so wrapped in your own opinions that you don't feel fair to at least read and consider everything I tried to say.

L_G_Pool #14 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:20

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View PostValkeiper, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:16, said:

LOL

His profile has been locked and still has a negative 39 rep.

He doesn't dare explain his statement for fear of revealing his stupidity.

:Smile_great:

I owe you nothing live launch noob. I have negative rep for daring to speak out against SPG's and Soviet Bias. Try speaking out against those 2 topics and keep positive rep.

Sypher9 #15 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:20

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SPGs are not hard to play in the slightest. You find a spot, park your butt there, and use your satellite view to rain death from above. That's not hard. It's only made harder artificially by long reloads, aim times, and inaccuracy. The actual play-style is the easiest offered among the vehicles present, because you're far removed from the actual fight with no risk to yourself.

Which is, in fact, the only reason I hate SPGs. They have so much power, they can single-handedly turn the tide of a fight with no risk to themselves. They are uber-high reward vs. minimal/no risk. They go against everything that the other vehicles are. When you're in a TD or medium or heavy, you have to take into account range, how likely am I to hit, how much time will I have to move before he returns fire, will the damage I do be greater than the damage I could potentially receive, will my aim time hinder me, and all manner of other factors. SPGs only have to worry about reload time and accuracy. If you miss, well, sit there and be useless for 10-20 seconds and when your next shot is loaded, roll the dice at ending a person's game in one shot. Hell, some SPGs are surprisingly speedy and can keep pace with heavies or even mediums. The Hummel, among others, works as a surprisingly effective TD.

tl;dr every tank is risk vs. reward, whereas artillery is hardly any risk vs. high reward. For the amount of power SPGs possess, they do not have enough down-sides.

Valkeiper #16 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:21

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View Postkjfett, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:06, said:

The limited arty I played (three in the German line) were not suffering for a lack of mobility or turning.  As for aiming and slow reloads, read on...



Aim time varies from nationality to size of the weapon.  The 152mm on the KV has a 25 second reload time.  Many of the larger caliber weapons have very long reload times and are certainly not 1 to 5 seconds.



Some tanks have armor protection.  Most TDs have very poor armor protection.  Many mediums and all light tanks have very low armor.



Judging by little knowledge you displayed of other vehicles, I would have to counter with the same.  Before you protest the points tankers have against, arty, you may want to learn a little about them first.

I have to be honest, when your first paragraph is so full of holes, I just couldn't consider the rest as worth reading as I am sure it is based on the lacking knowldege and beliefs dsiplayed in the first.

Then I suppose you consider yourself an expert on every type of vehicle in the game?

The OP made the same points about self-propelled artillery in the game as I have made several times.

While I have always admitted to limited knowledge of tanks and TDs; would you say I have little knowledge of arty?

And I say his points about arty are dead on.

Route48 #17 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:22

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I don't take the game too seriously but arty is one of its flaws imo. Skill to play arty? Used it when I first started the game out of curiosity and had I think one above the T57. My 9 year old granddaughter and 10 year old nephew play on my machine occasionally and they both liked playing the arty before I got rid of it. Skill? It was no time before they were damaging and killing tanks even with the low level stuff. How much skill does it take with the sighting system arty has when a 9 year old can be somewhat effective in a couple hours. cmon.

OJ191 #18 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:25

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TD's are designed to hide/ambush/snipe.... except invisitanks spot you and then arty instagibs you. There is my problem with SPG's.

SPG's in their current iteration BREAK the entire concept of waiting in ambush. You may as well just play as an assault tank, ESPECIALLY In the lightly armoured TD's because they get one-shot by the splash damage!

If you are facing competent arty with decent spotters/enough cannon fodder, you CANNOT play a TD as a TD, because it will get you brutally raped then murdered.

I would be fine with area barrage, but when they have the potential to drop a round right on your head across the map, just because some tank suicided into you (spotting persists a few seconds after death....), it's just beyond stupid.

I would seriously rather have air support than this version of arty, at least air support you can see coming and (potentially anyway) shoot down.

Asky #19 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:28

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View PostNullArc11Ordo, on Aug 14 2011 - 01:53, said:


   Lastly, WoT is fun because it is a challenge.  This game requires players to learn how to effectively use AFVs of different types against other players.  Every new player starts at the bottom with tier 1 AFVs and decides which new ones to work toward and unlock.  Along the way players learn which AFVs they like the most and are most effective with.  As they play they also learn the tactics involved with each different AFV, and how to exploit their strengths and their enemy's weaknesses.  Instead of complaining about things and demanding that the WoT developers make changes, nerf, or remove things, players should spend more time learning how to better play the game.  Too many MMOGs have been ruined because players were too lazy to do the work involved to get the rewards, and instead complained until the developers altered the game and destroyed the enjoyable challenge they had created (Star Wars Galaxies is a prime example of this).  If players want things easy, they shouldn't play WoT.  WoT is fun because of the challenge, and the satisfaction you feel when you reach your next AFV should make the grind worth it.

   I love WoT.  I've been playing it since Beta.  I plan to play it as long as it sticks around, and it will stick around if players and fans work together to make it the most enjoyable gaming experience it can be for everyone.

THIS^^^


View Postkjfett, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:06, said:

[...]
oh gawd, another troll

Scarwulf #20 Posted Aug 14 2011 - 02:28

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View PostSypher9, on Aug 14 2011 - 02:20, said:

SPGs are not hard to play in the slightest. You find a spot, park your butt there, and use your satellite view to rain death from above. That's not hard. It's only made harder artificially by long reloads, aim times, and inaccuracy. The actual play-style is the easiest offered among the vehicles present, because you're far removed from the actual fight with no risk to yourself.

Which is, in fact, the only reason I hate SPGs. They have so much power, they can single-handedly turn the tide of a fight with no risk to themselves. They are uber-high reward vs. minimal/no risk. They go against everything that the other vehicles are. When you're in a TD or medium or heavy, you have to take into account range, how likely am I to hit, how much time will I have to move before he returns fire, will the damage I do be greater than the damage I could potentially receive, will my aim time hinder me, and all manner of other factors. SPGs only have to worry about reload time and accuracy. If you miss, well, sit there and be useless for 10-20 seconds and when your next shot is loaded, roll the dice at ending a person's game in one shot. Hell, some SPGs are surprisingly speedy and can keep pace with heavies or even mediums. The Hummel, among others, works as a surprisingly effective TD.

tl;dr every tank is risk vs. reward, whereas artillery is hardly any risk vs. high reward. For the amount of power SPGs possess, they do not have enough down-sides.


Interesting thoughts.  Thanks for the input.  I hadn't thought of SPGs as having so much power as you say.