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This is what happens when United Airlines needs your seat & you refuse


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Klaatu_Nicto #221 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 18:14

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4440136/United-Airlines-passenger-says-s-late-apologies.html

Kenshin2kx #222 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 19:36

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Given the polarized state regarding the moral and or 'correct' actions taken to resolve this issue, IMHO, I actually hope that Dr. Dao does sue, and that he wins decisively for the purpose of becoming a legal precedent that ultimately generates a more cohesive and regulated aspect to the issues on overbooking, and contractual obligations/liability between both the flyer and the airline.  At this point in time, I don't begrudge the airlines attempting to optimize their flight capacities by booking to the safe limit allowable ... but I do take exception to a policy and real world procedures which condone (or allow) what happened to Dr. Dao.  The puzzling thing here, is that, the proposed solutions mentioned in this thread ... are not rocket science based ... if anything, they are intuitive, logical and eminently practical in regards to effort to outcome potential.  Now, for those who would take this observation as 'obvious' after the fact ... I actually queried a bight 8 year old on this very situation (in a moderately simplified scenario - but not overly simplistic) soon after this case came to light ... now, this 8 year old, came to the same general observations promoted by the 'anti force' advocates on this thread.  In fact, this child, came to these conclusions IN 1 TRY ... not 4 times.  The point being, what United should have done, is not so esoteric and complex, that it requires extensive analysis and massive controversy.   Thus, United, as it appears, will pay a huge price (likely in legal and profit potential), and it appears that Oscar Munoz will be held somewhat accountable, and WON'T be ratified as Board CEO for 2018 ... word to the wise, airline industry (and others in related service providing capacity) ... take this case as the shape of things to come in terms of accountability in a competitive market context.

Edited by Kenshin2kx, Apr 25 2017 - 20:00.


120mm_he #223 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 19:59

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Apr 25 2017 - 13:36, said:

 

Given the polarized state regarding the moral and or 'correct' actions taken to resolve this issue, IMHO, I actually hope that Dr. Dao does sue, and that he wins decisively for the purpose of becoming a legal precedent that ultimately generates a more cohesive and regulated aspect to the issues on overbooking, and contractual obligations/liability between both the flyer and the airline.  At this point in time, I don't begrudge the airlines attempting to optimize their flight capacities by booking to the safe limit allowable ... but I do take exception to a policy and real world procedures which condone (or allow) what happened to Dr. Dao.  The puzzling thing here, is that, the proposed solutions mentioned in this thread ... are not rocket science based ... if anything, they are both intuitive, logical and eminently practical in regards to effort to outcome potential.  Now, for those who would take this observation as 'obvious' after the fact ... I actually queried a bight 8 year old on this very situation (in a moderately simplified scenario - but not overly simplistic) ... this 8 year old, came to the same general observations promoted by the 'anti force' advocates on this thread.  In fact, this child, came to these conclusions IN 1 TRY ... not 4 times.  The point being, what United should have done, is not so esoteric and complex, that it requires extensive analysis and massive controversy.   Thus, United, as it appears, will pay a huge price (likely in legal and profit potential).  Also, it has come to light, that Munoz will (to a degree) be held accountable, and WON'T be ratified as Board CEO for 2018 ... word to the wise, airline industry (and others in related service providing capacity) ... take this case as the shape of things to come in terms of accountability in a competitive market context.

 

Sigh.. This is a non issue. There are billions of people flying around the country every year and last year approximately 46,000 were asked to give up seats and were paid well for the trouble of catching a later flight. So 0.0046% of passengers last year happily gave up a seat for cash and only one crazy dude got triggered who has a history of scams and odd behavior. Seems the statistics simply don't back up your claim. Overbooking is wildly successful for both the airlines and those passengers that get paid from it and it was only the media that made this into some sort of ebil plot by the airlines to wring profit out of the masses at their expense. Was this one specific incident bad? Absolutely but so far its literally the only one or else the media would have been showing them over and over as proof overbooking is some horrible thing that beats up passengers so airlines can act all brownshirt and such.

Kenshin2kx #224 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 20:09

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View Post120mm_he, on Apr 25 2017 - 08:59, said:

 

Sigh.. This is a non issue. There are billions of people flying around the country every year and last year approximately 46,000 were asked to give up seats and were paid well for the trouble of catching a later flight. So 0.0046% of passengers last year happily gave up a seat for cash and only one crazy dude got triggered who has a history of scams and odd behavior. Seems the statistics simply don't back up your claim. Overbooking is wildly successful for both the airlines and those passengers that get paid from it and it was only the media that made this into some sort of ebil plot by the airlines to wring profit out of the masses at their expense. Was this one specific incident bad? Absolutely but so far its literally the only one or else the media would have been showing them over and over as proof overbooking is some horrible thing that beats up passengers so airlines can act all brownshirt and such.

 

I have no doubt that overbooking is successful ... but consider the outcomes with its present situation ... what ever was saved or accrued as profit?  ... will need to be recalculated for the estimated 1.4 billion dollar stock drop loss and subsequent losses in legal and customer losses in times to come.  So, in regards to overbooking, I have no problem, I actually applaud the industry in the attempt to maximize efficiency ... its how the airlines enforce the absolute process (to the point of legitimizing the use of force) ... So, overbook, but reformulate the end user absolutes, in order not to have to drag off paying customers who can generate such results?  Thing is, the industry (as is shown by recent responses), doesn't see an overly positive note and 'trade off' in regards to the Dao incident ... if anything, there is considerable 'high level' alignment in its condemnation with little in the way of mitigating circumstance.

 

  


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Apr 25 2017 - 20:13.


120mm_he #225 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 20:35

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Apr 25 2017 - 14:09, said:

 

I have no doubt that overbooking is successful ... but consider the outcomes with its present situation ... what ever was saved or accrued as profit?  ... will need to be recalculated for the estimated 1.4 billion dollar stock drop loss and subsequent losses in legal and customer losses in times to come.  So, in regards to overbooking, I have no problem, I actually applaud the industry in the attempt to maximize efficiency ... its how the airlines enforce the absolute process (to the point of legitimizing the use of force) ... So, overbook, but reformulate the end user absolutes, in order not to have to drag off paying customers who can generate such results?  Thing is, the industry (as is shown by recent responses, doesn't see an overly positive note and 'trade off' in regards to the Dao incident ... if anything, there is considerable 'high level' alignment in its condemnation with little in the way of mitigating circumstance.

 

  

 

That stock drop is a paper loss as no one was dumb enough to actually sell any off like its not going to rebound in a week or so as the media wanders off to find something else to overblow and misrepresent. Hell right now would be a great time to pick up some united stock if any was available. The 'dao incident' as you call it was an unfortunate real life rng event which was completely unpredictable so the outcome became unpredictable because in the long history of overbooking no one actually refused the bonus money when asked to give up a seat. The airline rolled the dice and this time it landed on the one single passenger who would completely derail the process that all the other tens of thousands of normal adults gladly accepted. Apparently dao immediately became irate and irrational and initially the reaction of the other passengers close to him was ffs take the money so we can take off but he got even more belligerent and the cops were called which prompted dao to really amp up the hostility. Again this only became an issue because the passengers closer to the front and not able to hear how offensive dao had become now heard him scream as he resisted being removed. They saw him being dragged while fully conscious because he went limp and was too heavy for the officers to easily carry in the cramped space and the media only repeated the bits with his scream and being dragged out without any of the other details as that would weaken the stories impact and get lesser ratings. They also didn't show him escaping the officers to run back into the jet twice chanting 'they kill me' over and over like he was in a trance. This was pure performance art from this guy. Again no reasonable sane adult would ever act like he did. A sane reasonable adult would have realized that something got messed up in the translation when the cops showed up and that increasing the hostility even more to officers NEVER ends well. Ever. However from dao's perspective this will be a definite win as he will get millions for his act just like he knew he would for the cost of a busted lip. 

Kenshin2kx #226 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 21:01

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View Post120mm_he, on Apr 25 2017 - 09:35, said:

 

That stock drop is a paper loss as no one was dumb enough to actually sell any off like its not going to rebound in a week or so as the media wanders off to find something else to overblow and misrepresent. Hell right now would be a great time to pick up some united stock if any was available. The 'dao incident' as you call it was an unfortunate real life rng event which was completely unpredictable so the outcome became unpredictable because in the long history of overbooking no one actually refused the bonus money when asked to give up a seat. The airline rolled the dice and this time it landed on the one single passenger who would completely derail the process that all the other tens of thousands of normal adults gladly accepted. Apparently dao immediately became irate and irrational and initially the reaction of the other passengers close to him was ffs take the money so we can take off but he got even more belligerent and the cops were called which prompted dao to really amp up the hostility. Again this only became an issue because the passengers closer to the front and not able to hear how offensive dao had become now heard him scream as he resisted being removed. They saw him being dragged while fully conscious because he went limp and was too heavy for the officers to easily carry in the cramped space and the media only repeated the bits with his scream and being dragged out without any of the other details as that would weaken the stories impact and get lesser ratings. They also didn't show him escaping the officers to run back into the jet twice chanting 'they kill me' over and over like he was in a trance. This was pure performance art from this guy. Again no reasonable sane adult would ever act like he did. A sane reasonable adult would have realized that something got messed up in the translation when the cops showed up and that increasing the hostility even more to officers NEVER ends well. Ever. However from dao's perspective this will be a definite win as he will get millions for his act just like he knew he would for the cost of a busted lip. 

 

Consider the very real occurrence of the patient behaving as the proverbial adult in doing everything proper in the payment and boarding of the airplane ... only to be told that he/she has to get off due an arbitrary picking process ... I don't know about you, but that would irritate and anger me - regardless of the monetary 'accomodation'  ... So, I see any such belligerence as generated by an unreasonable situation ... If anything, I expect the business firm and its representatives to act in a manner befitting the service providing professional establishment.  The fact that Dr. Dao went 'limp' was likely the conscious act of passive resistance, which would put his actions IMHO, in a better light than the enforced removal with acceptable collateral damage done to the customer.  

 

Now, could it have been, as you say, 'pure performance'? possibly, but that does not mitigate against a threadbare process that resorts to force at the first sign of 'non-compliance'.  ... and apparently, the industry AND United (board) agree with this point.  Now, just as likely, Dr. Dao felt compelled to remain in adherence to his scheduling priorities ... his motives IMO are difficult if not impossible to confirm in any absolute factual sense, thus, I would give him the benefit of the doubt as to reason.


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Apr 25 2017 - 21:07.


120mm_he #227 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 21:15

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Apr 25 2017 - 15:01, said:

 

Consider the very real occurrence of the patient behaving as the proverbial adult in doing everything proper in the payment and boarding of the airplane ... only to be told that he/she has to get off due an arbitrary picking process ... I don't know about you, but that would irritate and anger me - regardless of the monetary 'accomodation'  ... So, I see any such belligerence as generated by an unreasonable situation ... If anything, I expect the business firm and its representatives to act in a manner befitting the service providing professional establishment.  The fact that Dr. Dao went 'limp' was likely the conscious act of passive resistance, which would put his actions IMHO, in a better light than the enforced removal with acceptable collateral damage done to the customer.  

 

Now, could it have been, as you say, 'pure performance'? possibly, but that does not mitigate against a threadbare process that resorts to force at the first sign of 'non-compliance'.  ... and apparently, the industry AND United (board) agree with this point.  Now, just as likely, Dr. Dao felt compelled to remain in adherence to his scheduling priorities ... his motives IMO are difficult if not impossible to confirm in any absolute factual sense, thus, I would give him the benefit of the doubt as to reason.

 

No one is disputing that the incident was bad and all the airlines will no doubt internally review their process to take lone wolf crazy situation into consideration if only to save themselves the bad press when the billion sided dice roll comes up snake eyes. The problem is that people are looking for issues with the system over this singular event when none exist. You can't predict these type of events and the odds are excellent it will never happen again even though you are going to get copycats looking to cash in due to the media exposure as there is always someone looking to run a scam. 

Kenshin2kx #228 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 21:25

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View Post120mm_he, on Apr 25 2017 - 10:15, said:

 

No one is disputing that the incident was bad and all the airlines will no doubt internally review their process to take lone wolf crazy situation into consideration if only to save themselves the bad press when the billion sided dice roll comes up snake eyes. The problem is that people are looking for issues with the system over this singular event when none exist. You can't predict these type of events and the odds are excellent it will never happen again even though you are going to get copycats looking to cash in due to the media exposure as there is always someone looking to run a scam. 

 

True ... I don't dispute the ill effect of opportunists taking advantage of a situation, but IMHO, this issue highlights a potential that (I'm not exaggerating for myself) ... is so obvious as to possibility, that it almost seems as if no thought had gone into the process.  ... and as for it being singular and 'out of the blue', I would note that the observation has been made that had it not been for modern technology, that even this incident would possibly have been down played and even buried by the industry (as an awkward and uncomfortable truth).  Unfortunately, in the 'pre record you' phone era ... the temptation to maintain status quo (regardless of right or wrong) has likely manifested as similar cases that were 'neutralized' in order to carry on with established routine.  Note this type of incident as the historical marker for an evolution to modern society with greater emphasis on accountability and liability.  The paradigm being, a society documented by default, on the level of the average citizen - in conjunction with a world wide network of information exchange.

Edited by Kenshin2kx, Apr 25 2017 - 21:47.


120mm_he #229 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 22:03

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Apr 25 2017 - 15:25, said:

 

True ... I don't dispute the ill effect of opportunists taking advantage of a situation, but IMHO, this issue highlights a potential that (I'm not exaggerating for myself) ... is so obvious as to possibility, that it almost seems as if no thought had gone into the process.  ... and as for it being singular and 'out of the blue', I would note that the observation has been made that had it not been for modern technology, that even this incident would possibly have been down played and even buried by the industry (as an awkward and uncomfortable truth).  Unfortunately, in the 'pre record you' phone era ... the temptation to maintain status quo (regardless of right or wrong) has likely manifested as similar cases that were 'neutralized' in order to carry on with established routine.  Note this type of incident as the historical marker for an evolution to modern society with greater emphasis on accountability and liability.  The paradigm being, a society documented by default, on the level of the average citizen - in conjunction with a world wide network of information exchange.

 

Actually if there were no cellphone cameras this still would have made it to court or a settlement because the story would still have made it to the press. Public spying just makes it far easier and efficient. As to the eventual use of force again you have to look at the situation in its entirety and not just the snippets of screams and dragging. Those cops only knew that a passenger had become belligerent and hostile and was upsetting the other passengers when called and when they arrived they were met with even more hostility. From their perspective they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Should this require a policy review? Sure but don't expect anything groundbreaking to come from it. A week or so from now no one will even remember this incident and the billions will keep flying the statistically overwhelmingly friendly skies.

Klaatu_Nicto #230 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 22:41

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I see this incident going a lot deeper than simply what happen on the plane. We see it with police, government bureaucrats and agents. If you dare question any of those, or don't immediately comply with their orders, it's like you lost your rights and they can do to you whatever they want.

 

 

You're a partially deaf wood carver walking down the street with a block of wood and a knife. You hear someone behind you yelling, but can't understand what they are saying, so as you start to turn around towards the person yelling this happens.............

 

 

The shooting review concluded the officers actions were "unjustified and outside of policy, tactics and training."  Officer Ian Birk resigned from the Seattle Police Department on February 16, 2011, one day after King County prosecutor Dan Satterberg decided not to press criminal charges against him. Seattle, i.e the taxpayers, paid the victims family $1.5 million for the wrongful death.

 

A day after the shooting the Seattle Police Dept. did the same thing to victim the media has done to the man on the plane - they tried to demonize.

 

Federal prosecutors will not charge former Seattle police Officer Ian Birk in the 2010 shooting death of First Nations woodcarver John T. Williams.

After what was described as a “comprehensive and independent” investigation — which sources have confirmed involved a grand jury — the U.S. Attorney’s Office and the FBI concluded that the “evidence was insufficient, beyond a reasonable doubt, that [Birk] acted willfully and with the deliberate and specific intent to do something the law forbids.”
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/no-federal-civil-rights-charges-for-former-spd-officer-ian-birk/

 

Try telling a judge you did not intend to beak the law when you shot someone in the back 4 times. That might work for government agents and a female presidential candidate but it will not work for us common folks.

 

Government agents don't need guns to ruin your life.

 

 


Edited by Klaatu_Nicto, Apr 25 2017 - 22:43.


mattwong #231 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 22:42

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View Post120mm_he, on Apr 25 2017 - 13:59, said:

Sigh.. This is a non issue. There are billions of people flying around the country every year and last year approximately 46,000 were asked to give up seats and were paid well for the trouble of catching a later flight.

 

And how is this relevant to the use of violence on someone who refuses to give up a seat he already paid for and was boarded onto the plane for?



Kenshin2kx #232 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 22:43

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View Post120mm_he, on Apr 25 2017 - 11:03, said:

 

Actually if there were no cellphone cameras this still would have made it to court or a settlement because the story would still have made it to the press. Public spying just makes it far easier and efficient. As to the eventual use of force again you have to look at the situation in its entirety and not just the snippets of screams and dragging. Those cops only knew that a passenger had become belligerent and hostile and was upsetting the other passengers when called and when they arrived they were met with even more hostility. From their perspective they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Should this require a policy review? Sure but don't expect anything groundbreaking to come from it. A week or so from now no one will even remember this incident and the billions will keep flying the statistically overwhelmingly friendly skies.

 

... options used in the past, have often included the expedient use of 'hush' money in the form of a fairly private settlement with much less publicity ... thus, monies used to maintain the status quo ... nowadays, its much, much harder to isolate such an incident if the parties involved want to disseminate the documented occurence.

 

One week from now ... and we have that mother baby/flight attendant incident (American Airlines) ... while different in context, I don't think things like this will become 'forgettable' ... now granted there will probably be valid uses of force in the future, thus my suggestion that the industry and its staff extensions utilize personal recording devices to 'officially' document all customer interactions.   This should have 2 positive effects ... 1. The knowledge (by the user) should help to moderate their behavior in alignment with promoted procedural behavior/actions ... 2. Should the worst case scenario manifest, the documented interaction can help significantly in determining the basic truth behind the incident (to determine who is right, wrong, or to what degree)


Edited by Kenshin2kx, Apr 25 2017 - 22:59.


mattwong #233 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 22:47

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View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Apr 25 2017 - 16:41, said:

I see this incident going a lot deeper than simply what happen on the plane ...

 

Believe it or not, it is actually possible to just discuss this case on its own merits, and not attempt to turn it into a generalized rant against the government and environmental laws.  I know, I know, this is a revolutionary idea.  But why don't you try it, just for fun?



Klaatu_Nicto #234 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 22:56

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View Postmattwong, on Apr 25 2017 - 13:47, said:

 

Believe it or not, it is actually possible to just discuss this case on its own merits, and not attempt to turn it into a generalized rant against the government and environmental laws.  I know, I know, this is a revolutionary idea.  But why don't you try it, just for fun?

 

Should we just treat the symptoms and ignore the disease?



mattwong #235 Posted Apr 26 2017 - 04:42

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View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Apr 25 2017 - 16:56, said:

Should we just treat the symptoms and ignore the disease?

 

Attempting to tie this into broader social patterns is something that should best be done with actual serious academic study, not someone's gut instinct as to what causes behaviour like this.



Klaatu_Nicto #236 Posted Apr 26 2017 - 05:29

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View Postmattwong, on Apr 25 2017 - 19:42, said:

 

Attempting to tie this into broader social patterns is something that should best be done with actual serious academic study, not someone's gut instinct as to what causes behaviour like this.

 

It's more than gut instinct. You need to think in more than one dimension.

120mm_he #237 Posted Apr 26 2017 - 07:34

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View Postmattwong, on Apr 25 2017 - 16:42, said:

 

And how is this relevant to the use of violence on someone who refuses to give up a seat he already paid for and was boarded onto the plane for?

 

That's the point. There is no correlation. It was pure random chance that caused this incident and not some endemic deficiency in the overall system. There are no airport cops bashing heads on flight after flight because customers are refusing to give up seats. This was a one off and the guy is going to make millions for a busted lip and his 15 minutes of internet fame. This is not the evil police state/corporate dystopia conspiracy you are looking for.

 

View PostKenshin2kx, on Apr 25 2017 - 16:43, said:

 

... options used in the past, have often included the expedient use of 'hush' money in the form of a fairly private settlement with much less publicity ... thus, monies used to maintain the status quo ... nowadays, its much, much harder to isolate such an incident if the parties involved want to disseminate the documented occurence.

 

One week from now ... and we have that mother baby/flight attendant incident (American Airlines) ... while different in context, I don't think things like this will become 'forgettable' ... now granted there will probably be valid uses of force in the future, thus my suggestion that the industry and its staff extensions utilize personal recording devices to 'officially' document all customer interactions.   This should have 2 positive effects ... 1. The knowledge (by the user) should help to moderate their behavior in alignment with promoted procedural behavior/actions ... 2. Should the worst case scenario manifest, the documented interaction can help significantly in determining the basic truth behind the incident (to determine who is right, wrong, or to what degree)

 

Nothing you are talking about is broken in the context of this incident. Again this was a one off and klatuu's examples are more of the same. Sure the poor woodcutter getting shot was terrible and from the looks of it mishandled by the courts afterwards but when you figure the about million strong police force interacts with the public at least three million times a day and over a billion a year and with all those countless chances day after day to be brutal you can only find a handful of incidents each year. For something that statistically is in the realm of getting struck by lightning on a sunny day I find it hard to equate it to a growing police state or that the majority of the serving officers are brownshirts waiting to pounce.

 

 

 

 



SpitYoYoMafia #238 Posted Apr 26 2017 - 13:09

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View Post120mm_he, on Apr 25 2017 - 12:15, said:

 

No one is disputing that the incident was bad and all the airlines will no doubt internally review their process to take lone wolf crazy situation into consideration if only to save themselves the bad press when the billion sided dice roll comes up snake eyes. The problem is that people are looking for issues with the system over this singular event when none exist. You can't predict these type of events and the odds are excellent it will never happen again even though you are going to get copycats looking to cash in due to the media exposure as there is always someone looking to run a scam. 

 

Actually they do.

 

1. Overbooking is illegal and is fraud. Lawsuits have already happened and the plaintiffs have won.

 

2. They think that just because they put something into a contract it makes them right, news flash, it does not. The court of law will though.

 

3. Big companies treat their customers like dirt. If you say that there is nothing that you can do about it then you are part of the problem.

 

4. We still have idiots who are still in denial even with mountains worth of proof in their faces that both the security and the airline were in the wrong and are getting sued for it.

 

5. People do not know their basic rights as a consumer and they think that companies can do whatever they want to you. I have no idea who raised these people but they did a bad job.



SpitYoYoMafia #239 Posted Apr 26 2017 - 13:14

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View PostKenshin2kx, on Apr 25 2017 - 13:43, said:

 

... options used in the past, have often included the expedient use of 'hush' money in the form of a fairly private settlement with much less publicity ... thus, monies used to maintain the status quo ... nowadays, its much, much harder to isolate such an incident if the parties involved want to disseminate the documented occurence.

 

One week from now ... and we have that mother baby/flight attendant incident (American Airlines) ... while different in context, I don't think things like this will become 'forgettable' ... now granted there will probably be valid uses of force in the future, thus my suggestion that the industry and its staff extensions utilize personal recording devices to 'officially' document all customer interactions.   This should have 2 positive effects ... 1. The knowledge (by the user) should help to moderate their behavior in alignment with promoted procedural behavior/actions ... 2. Should the worst case scenario manifest, the documented interaction can help significantly in determining the basic truth behind the incident (to determine who is right, wrong, or to what degree)

 

That force will not happen if it infringes upon the rights of others.

mattwong #240 Posted Apr 26 2017 - 14:51

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View PostKlaatu_Nicto, on Apr 25 2017 - 23:29, said:

It's more than gut instinct. You need to think in more than one dimension.

 

No, it's totally gut instinct.  You need to learn how to think critically.






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