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frontline is going to fail just like rampage


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cheapbooks #1 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 17:58

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Frontline was just released on the sandbox server, and it is clear that the game mode is going to fail just like rampage did. It was mostly a disappointment, and this post will explain why.

 

 

First, I am going to explain the failures of frontline that are the same failures as rampage. Rampage and Random Battles use the same tanks, crew, equipment, ammo, and consumables. The problem is that you need different crew skills, ammo, consumables, and equipment for random battles as you would for rampage or frontline. Rampage and frontline are very very brawl oriented, so you need to have anything that improves repair ability, and anything that improves the gun handling. Random battles do have these elements, but many of us do not brawl. any tank that is optimized for spotting in random battles will suffer in rampage or frontline, which means all the crew skills, equipment, and consumables are different. I have about 123 tanks and all of them are optimized for spotting, and none are optimized for brawling, so none of them worked well in rampage or frontline without major expense and modification.


 

But not only do you have to change your crew for your tier 10 tanks for rampage and frontline, but that is the same crew on all of your premium tanks, which means all of those premium tanks are no longer optimized for random battles, and your play style on random battles for all your premium tanks, with the same crew as your tier 10s, has to switch to brawling, instead of scouting or flanking. so it affects a lot more than just the tank you play in frontline or rampage, it also affects the lower tier premium tanks.


 

Rampage and frontline both have a tier 10 requirement. I had to play for many weeks to get my first tier 10 tank for rampage, and that allowed me to play, but I still had to use tier 8's against tier 10's in rampage in every battle, because I did not have enough tier 10 tanks. so I wanted to play rampage, but had to play random battles to level my tanks up. by the time I had tier 10 tanks to play, rampage was removed form the game.


 

for frontline, it is worse. you need to have specific tanks for defending and specific tanks for assault, and you need to have tanks configured for random battles. for defending on frontline, you play long range td's, or slow tanks like the Maus. for attacking, you need fast tanks, such as medium tanks. so now you need twice as many tanks, and you often are going to pick the wrong tank to start the game, and if you live too long you just hope to die so you can get into the right tank. if you pick the wrong tank to start the game, you often just can't participate because either you are too slow to catch up to the battle, or too weakly armored to defend against the onslaught headed towards you.


 

in random battles, people complain about getting one shotted by spg. in frontline, when you get spotted, 4 or 5 hidden tanks snipe at you immediately, and in a split second you lose all your health from tanks sniping beyond your view range that will never be spotted. so the arty problem people complain about in random battles is now a hidden sniper problem in frontline.


 

frontline is mostly long range sniping. you need to optimize for gun handling. you need the GLD for example, because you will almost always be shooting at tanks far away, and they will be shooting at your from far away. you will almost never get close to an enemy tank. so your tanks have to be equipped different than for random battles, and the expensive of reconfiguring tanks is prohibitive. in addition, in frontline, if you get spotted, you have a split second to run and hide before 10 tanks start assaulting you. running doesn't save you. only hiding. the maps are corridor maps, so there are choke points, so the enemy knows where you are going to go, and they sit and wait for you to arrive, and you can't easily advance across the map unless you have overwhelming force on your own side. without massive overwhelming force, you can't flank anyone or go where you want on the map. so the lone hero in random battles is gone in frontline.


 

if you get killed you might have to wait 2 to 5 minutes before you can respawn. during this wait period, the thought in your mind is "I want to play" or "I should just end the game now and do something else". no one wants to wait 2 minutes let alone 5 minutes to respawn into the game.


 

if the enemy captures a location, you have to leave the area or get bombarded by airstrikes. no one wants the game to tell them where and when they can go somewhere. this will be an unpopular feature. players want the freedom to drive anywhere on the map, but frontline requires you to stay within corridors, that people have been complaining about for the past year.


 

many times while defending, I didn't care about defending the cap because I knew the enemy would have to go through the choke point after capping and because I knew I could just fight the battle in the final stage of the map. the current strategy is that it is better to let the assaulting team cap and deal with them later when they have a disadvantage because they have to advance out in the open or through a choke point. capping is too easy and currently makes no sense.


 

there is no scouting in frontline. the enemy knows you are going to go to the cap, and they sit and aim their guns at the cap until you arrive. there is no strategy to locate the enemy. you just drive forward and brawl. there is no "hey let's play over there instead", there is just 1 place to play and it is the cap, and the enemy knows you are going there and will be waiting for you, and you don't have a choice in the matter. so if you are smart and know how to outmaneuver or flank the enemy it won't matter because you don't have the option of fighting the battle where you want to, the battle is always at the same place.


 

the capping team gets to cap, and the caps are well defended. so to stop capping, you have to do a suicide run, because many or perhaps all of the caps have big hills and houses to hide behind. losing the cap doesn't make you lose the game, so many people on the team don't care that the enemy is  capping. you can sit on the cap until 100% and the enemy won't even try to go after you. they have little reason to kill you on the cap. so what happens if you are assaulting is you drive to the cap, sit on it, and wait for the cap to complete. you don't even have to fire your gun or avoid incoming fire. you just sit behind the slope or behind a building. it is not challenging at all.


 

the last stage, shooting the 5 pill boxes, is difficult because the entire enemy team spawns right at the point where you have to sit to fire at the turrets. so you have to fire your guns at the turrets while the entire enemy team is shooting at you. and if you kill one of them, they respawn in a place conveniently located to go kill you again.  so it is very challenging to the assaulting team but easy to defend.


 

anytime I saw an enemy tank somewhere, near the last stage of the map, and pursued it, his friends quickly surrounded me and ganged up on me, which I never worried about in random battles. frontline is a game where you have to have overwhelming force, and you have to be in friendly territory. but you often don't spawn in a location convenient for you to be with your team, so if you get spotted, you get surrounded quickly. it is a hit and run game. you can take one shot and then you often have to run and hide.


 

in random battles you are mostly free to move around the map. in frontline, if you try to go from one place to another, you often have to go across the open and deal with hidden snipers. even with fast tanks I found it difficult to go from one place to another. so you have to pick a spot with good defense and just stay there. you are not free to move around the map unless you are behind friendly lines, and if you are behind friendly lines, then you are not in battle, so it doesn't matter where you are.


 

for those of you who have not played frontline, it is kind of like playing mittengard. no scouting, little flanking, the enemy always knows where you are going to go, they always know where to find you (just go forward), etc.


 

so to some up:

- I don't like that I have to have 2 complete tank configurations and crews for random battles and frontline

- I don't like the long respawn wait time

- I don't like the issue of not knowing which side I am on before I pick my first tank

- I don't like the campiness, corridor maps, and choke points

- I don't like the lack of freedom to play wherever I want on the map, whenever I want

- I don't like the strategy of overwhelming force which turns it into a brawling match

- I don't like the idea that everyone knows that the battle will be at the cap, so everyone knows where you will be going to

- I don't like the fact that it is difficult to maneuver around the map even with fast tanks unless you are behind friendly lines


 

considering some of these problems were also in rampage, and rampage was never fixed, I doubt that frontline will be fixed, and I expect it to fail.


 

some recommendations:

- don't have the assaulting team land on 3 different points. the defending team should have to figure out where they assaulting team is coming from. maybe the assaulting team should randomly be assigned to 2 of the 3 attacking zones, and the defending team has to scout them out, and reposition.

- the caps are too close to friendly territory. it makes no sense that you are assaulting cap areas that at the start of the game aren't defendable by the defending team. the first caps are too easily accessible by the assaulting team, that the defending team has to be the assaulting team in order to protect the first caps. maybe add a second objective such as shooting a radar installation and capping, and the assaulting team has to do both, and make them far apart.

- not enough bushes to hide in. people have to share bushes, and if one has no camo, he makes both of you become spotted when he fires his gun for example.

- when you are in a defensive position, it is often impossible to retreat because retreating means you have to go out in the open and you will get immediately shot in the rear by the assaulting team. need more ways to retreat.

- reduce respawn penalty to 15 seconds. people want to play, and they don't want to sit and wait. it is bad enough they have to drive across the map when respawning, the penalty makes no sense

- randomly pick 2 of the 3 cap points per stage for the assaulting team. the assaulting team knows which 2 cap points they will go after, and the enemy doesn't, so the enemy can't just sit and camp, they have to have battle awareness.

- there has to be  a greater penalty for losing a cap. when playing, I always thought I didn't have to defend the cap because I can just defend in the last stage. perhaps defenders lose 10,000 credits or exp every time the assaulting team caps, so it gives the defending team more incentive to defend the cap. or, give extra credits/exp to the defending team if it takes longer for the assaulting team to cap.

- require the enemy to be on 2 cap points in the same sector at the same time to make the timer run. this requires team work, and there would be 2 cap locations, so the assaulting team has to cooperate to run the cap times, and the defending team has multiple points they have to defend.


 

it just isn't fun as it currently exists.



Maltfourti #2 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:03

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Well. I hope it turns out that you are wrong. The only thing I got out of Rampage was some half-decent crews.

cheapbooks #3 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:06

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amazing how you posted your reply before I finished reading it after I posted it. you must be a quick reader. ;)

Winterpeger #4 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:09

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View Postcheapbooks, on Apr 12 2017 - 10:58, said:

if you get killed you might have to wait 2 to 5 minutes before you can respawn. during this wait period, the thought in your mind is "I want to play" or "I should just end the game now and do something else". no one wants to wait 2 minutes let alone 5 minutes to respawn into the game.

 

Where are you getting this "wait for 2 to 5 minutes before you respawn?  When I was checking out Frontline, I was only waiting 30 seconds to respawn.



otacon237 #5 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:11

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Didn't read all of that but it doesn't seem like you got the right idea, I enjoyed the mode, needs a bit of tweaking but seems fine to me. You didn't feel like you had enough freedom on a map 9 times the side of a standard map? Also I had no problem transitioning any of my tanks and play style over, the meta's exactly the same, mobility and firepower trump everything

Dogsoldier6 #6 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:13

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A better fix, and pretty simple............................

 

1) Forget the entire idea of attacker/defender.

 

2) Place three or five cap circles across the center of the map, first team to capture two/three win.

 

3) Put the Spawn and Re-Spawn points at the very edge of each sides starting positions.

 

4) Put the repair/load up points half way between the re-spawn points and the cap circles.

 

 



_CHILL_ #7 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:13

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your making way to big a deal out of it, its just another game mode like assaults or encounter. theres no reason to change all your crews and skills around and its not a 3-5 minute wait its 30 seconds and also its just the sandbox.

 

if you dont like it dont play it, just like you can disable assault and encounter in your settings you will have the choice to play this or not.



Halonut24 #8 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:16

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A lot of that was very unconvincing complaining.

View Postcheapbooks, on Apr 12 2017 - 09:58, said:

so to some up:

- I don't like that I have to have 2 complete tank configurations and crews for random battles and frontline

- I don't like the long respawn wait time

- I don't like the issue of not knowing which side I am on before I pick my first tank

- I don't like the campiness, corridor maps, and choke points

- I don't like the lack of freedom to play wherever I want on the map, whenever I want

- I don't like the strategy of overwhelming force which turns it into a brawling match

- I don't like the idea that everyone knows that the battle will be at the cap, so everyone knows where you will be going to

- I don't like the fact that it is difficult to maneuver around the map even with fast tanks unless you are behind friendly lines

-So, we HAVE to have 2 configurations to play this? I think not. That is for the most sweaty try-hards.

-Respawn times? Well, at least you CAN respawn, though the economics will need further development if it wants to succeed.

-Not knowing which side? I predict this will be fixed rather quickly. Again, it's very experimental.

-For the campiness, yes, for TD's. That doesn't necessarily spell failure. Corridors? The blind lumbering heavies need to go somewhere.

-Wherever and whenever you want? Go do a training room then!

-Brawling matches are what just about every battle eventually becomes. That's just how it is.

-Playing the objective. It's kind of the point. The large areas allow for more flexible attack strategies.

-Do you expect to just waltz around in front of the enemy then without being killed? If you need to move from one side to another, don't just do it in front of the whole enemy team and complain that you are dead. That's silly.

 

See, I think you just want a BOT mode where you just mindlessly run about in whatever little speed demon tank you have without being shot at while you gleefully circle every tank you see without any threat of death. That's not how it works.

 


Edited by Halonut24, Apr 12 2017 - 18:17.


SmirkingGerbil #9 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:17

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Another amusing diatribe.

Brummie96 #10 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:25

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- This isn't any different than random battles, just more people and a lot bigger map. Don't really have to changes crews at all...

- Don't go off by yourself then you don't have to worry about getting surrounded my multiple tanks, make sure your teammates are around to support you.

- The caps are important because they add more time for the attackers.

- Map doesn't really have choke points because you can go to a different flank, so you cant just wait at the back for the attackers to cap everything then have 8-10 minutes to kill 12k hp

- As long as you stay alive for 5 minutes you get a life back...not that hard to do. Use the repair stations.

-You don't know if you attack or assault in the random battle game mode so how is that any different?

- Also killing the capers is quite important because that's the way to reset their cap points, damaging them only stalls it.

- Once the new defense/capture zone has been established the defenders can go back into the previous zone, it only limits you for a minute.

 

Also this game is in early development, don't say its going to fail just from playing it a few times before they have even tried to tweak it. Everyone is so quick to jump on the forums and bash on this new game mode without even letting it develop, just be patient people. I believe this game mode is going to be a lot of fun when it gets released.


Edited by Brummie96, Apr 12 2017 - 18:27.


NomaeTheJester #11 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:26

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Stopped reading when you were saying how you need to re-optimise for brawling, but then you said that you get insta-gibbed by snipers and spotters in frontline. Can't have one and  the other.

_CHILL_ #12 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:31

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View PostNomaeTheJester, on Apr 12 2017 - 13:26, said:

Stopped reading when you were saying how you need to re-optimise for brawling, but then you said that you get insta-gibbed by snipers and spotters in frontline. Can't have one and  the other.

 

i dont think he read his own post, lol, or he is completely clueless

 

second paragraph        "Rampage and frontline are very very brawl oriented"

7th paragraph               "frontline is mostly long range sniping"

 

 

 



Kamahl1234 #13 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:33

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My experience is that spotting is still king outside of the final mid push. It's mostly open terrain. 

 

The long respawn is to prevent you from simply #YOLO-ing into their lines and physically stopping the enemy via corpses. Also teaches you the very valuable lesson of not putting yourself at so much risk this happens all the time. Thus far I've yet to run out of respawns and have to wait terribly long, it's only 5 mins you have to live to get a respawn. It's not the modes fault if you can't survive that long. 

 

Respawn battles will always feature fights at some form of cap, as otherwise it's just a brawlfest with no other objectives, which ironically you want yet abhor. 

 

It always should be hard to maneuver behind enemy lines if you're trying to reposition, you're in deep with the enemy, this by default should be harder than when you're only seeing friendlies. 

 

 

Serously, the only real brawling section that would focus on brawl skills is one single square, so 1/9th the map. This changes nothing in terms of crew skills other than further pushing for viewrange. 



GeorgePreddy #14 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:33

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The big question is:  How will the major clans rig it ?

_CHILL_ #15 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:39

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Apr 12 2017 - 13:33, said:

The big question is:  How will the major clans rig it ?

 

wargaming did it for them........5 man platoons ;)

Winterpeger #16 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:39

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Apr 12 2017 - 11:33, said:

The big question is:  How will the major clans rig it ?

 

:teethhappy:  sync drop on the west server. 

Kamahl1234 #17 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:40

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Apr 12 2017 - 17:33, said:

The big question is:  How will the major clans rig it ?

 

With much difficulty I feel, as unless WG does the same as rampage with a unique tank reward, there wouldn't be much purpose unless somehow they [edited]up and make it pretty profitable. Well, more profitable than stronks. 

 

You'd need to get more or less 45-60 people to really do riggging I feel with a 30v30 matchup.



Pipinghot #18 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:41

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Apr 12 2017 - 12:33, said:

The big question is:  How will the major clans rig it ?

With haxx....?



Pipinghot #19 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:43

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View Post_CHILL_, on Apr 12 2017 - 12:39, said:

wargaming did it for them........5 man platoons

I think you're probably joking, but just in case...

 

It's worth noting that 5-man platoons in Frontline is a smaller percentage of the team than 3-man platoons in Randoms.

3/15 = 20% of team.

5/30 = 16% of team.

In theory, this should mean that an individual platoon in Frontline will be less powerful than they are in Random battles.

HootThePirate #20 Posted Apr 12 2017 - 18:44

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Honestly they should not use us as guinea pigs.





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