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A Historically Accurate PRC Tree

China Peoples Republic Tech tree Historically accurate No fakes Kongzhong are liars

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kingofall43587 #1 Posted Apr 22 2017 - 20:29

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From the historian who brought you the "Arab Tech Tree, for Historical Interest" comes a historically accurate PRC tech tree:
 

 

I've got a real problem with the current tree. In it, it has ridiculous numbers of blatant fakes (T-34-1, 59-Patton, Type T-34, the new TD line for China only etc), and tanks that just don't belong (Renault NC-31, Type 64 of RoC, Vickers Mark E Type B (which was only used by the Kuomintang) ). Let's jump straight into the historically accurate tree:

 

Tier I. There were three picks for this, none used by the PLA, however. The Disston Tractor Tank (which may have never made it to China: http://www.tanks-enc...n-tractor-tank/), a Clectrac 30 with a 37mm gun (used by the Armoured Car and Tank Corp of Chongqing - no photos), or a Renault FT. This particular FT variant (which i've nicknamed Renault FT Manchuria) was armed with a 37mm Manchurian field gun. The Fengtian Army of Zhang Zuolin used these (either bought from a French garrison in Siberia, 1919 or 1925 - sources differ), and the Kuomintang inherited some after Zhang Zuolin was assassinated, his son, Zhang Xueliang became head of the Fengtian Army, and swore loyalty to Chiang Kai-shek (leader of the Kuomintang). The Kuomintang also bought some regular FTs from France during the Northern Expedition (mid-1920s).

(Some of Zhang Zuolin's FTs were captured by the Japanese Kwantung Army. The Kwantung Army were the only known users of the Renault NC-31 in China. I suppose Wargaming is implicitly suggesting that the KMT or PLA captured and used some NC-31s at some point. There's no proof of this.)

Photo - a KMT Renault FT with a 37mm Manchurian field gun. https://s-media-cach...da21aeda7fa.jpg

 

Light Line:

Tier II - T-26 M1935 / M1937. These were actually bought by the Kuomintang in 1937 to replace losses of their British Vickers tanks at Shanghai, and German and Italian tanks in Nanjing. The PLA captured or destroyed several (but definitely re-used at least one) in the Huaihai campaign November 1948 - January 1949.

Photo - the only known PLA T-26 (looks to be an M1935, as there's no visible P-40AA mount). It's in October 1st parade colours. http://i.imgur.com/901faLt.jpg

 

Tier III - M3A3 Stuart. Originally used by the KMT, given to them by the US. The PLA captured plenty of these.

Tier IV - M5A1 Stuart. Ditto. Photo - M3A3 and M5A1 Stuarts in a museum in Beijing - http://2.bp.blogspot...00/IMG_5223.jpg

 

Tier V - Type 63 amphibious. This one is dodgy, because it's more like a VI. I'm not sure it fits, maybe it can be swapped for the 59-16? It could even be replaced by the Chaffee, of which at least one was captured in Korea. I just wanted some variety, I guess. http://www.tanks-enc...ina/Type-63.php

 

Tier VI - 59-16. We all know this from the China tree. It was a scale model. http://www.kongjun.c...4/images/08.jpg

 

Tier VII - The Type 62, currently a gift tank in game. http://www.tanks-enc...ina/Type-62.php

 

Tier VIII - WZ-132, currently in game. This was a prototype. There were clearly different guns. http://wiki.gcdn.co/...WZ-132_(3).jpg  http://wiki.gcdn.co/...c/c0/WZ-132.jpg

 

Tier IX - Type 63A. This is a deeply modernised Type 63 tank, made in 1997, with a 105mm rifled gun. http://www.military-...ks/type_63a.jpg

 

Tier X - Type 62-G (or Type 62 Gai). A deeply modernised Type 62 with a 105mm rifled gun from 2000. http://www.tanks-enc...oto_Type62G.jpg

 

Medium line

II - Type 95 Ha-Go. Both the KMT and the PLA captured / inherited these. http://www.tanks-enc...3/PLA-Ha-Go.jpg

III - Type 97 Chi-Ha. Ditto. http://www.tanks-enc...lay-640x480.jpg

IV - Type 97 Chi-Ha Shinhoto. Ditto. http://www.tanks-enc...ade-640x373.jpg

 

V - A little harder to find a V, given that there is no such thing as the Type T-34 (North Korea used T-34/76s, but not China. There is NO evidence that the PLA used T-34/76s). I could only find an M4A2 that was (I believe) captured in Korea. I don't know if the PLA captured any Shermans (M4A4 or otherwise) from the KMT during the Civil War. Photo - M4A2 in the Beijing museum - http://the.shadock.f...75_beijing1.jpg

 

VI - T-34/85 and Type 58. No further information required.

 

VII - Again, problematic. I'm absolutely unconvinced that the T-34-1 existed. They are trying to tell me that there's a Chinese copy of the T-34 that has a shorter hull with a stronger engine? Then they add the Chinese round turret? The former is dubious (maybe a paper drawing existed), the latter is probably [edited]. In that case, I was left only with the IS-2. The PLA were supplied with 82 of these, 1950-1954. Some were stationed in Korea. https://s-media-cach...ac4cb527b1e.jpg

 

VIII - T-54A. The Chinese were sold plenty of these from the USSR.

 

IX - Type 59 and Type 59-II. We know what this is. The Type 59-II had a 105mm L/7 gun. http://militarium.ne.../Type-59-II.jpg

http://www.tanks-enc...ina/Type-59.php

 

X - Type 69 or Type 69-II. Fairly standard. http://www.tanks-enc...ina/Type-69.php

 

Heavies - Very problematic. I've not seen any absolute proof of any of the Chinese heavy tanks except for the WZ-111 (no proof of the turret existing, or at least, no images of it, anyway, which makes modelling it hard), and the IS-2. If they had to shoehorn a historically accurate line in, this is what it would be:

VII - IS-2, we've been over this.

VIII - M26 Pershing. This one was not apparently used by the PLA, but at least one (probably many more) was captured in the Korean War. https://s-media-cach...f2d113ea731.jpg

IX - M46 Patton. Ditto. The Chinese were also, according to one source, given an M48 Patton by Vietnam during the Vietnam War, and it's on display in China. No pictures to hand, sorry.

X - WZ-111. We don't know what the turret looked like, that's all i'll say. http://www.tanks-enc...hina/WZ-111.php

 

Tank Destroyer line. The current tank destroyer line that is to be released on Chinese servers made me make this thread. It's all utter [edited]. Here is the best I could get:

II - The supposed locally produced SU-76. The caption, i'm told, says that one brigade made their own SU-76. I'm skeptical, but fine. http://i.imgur.com/mIQSD7V.jpg

III - Regular SU-76. The PLA were sold around 592, 1950-1954. http://2.bp.blogspot...00/IMG_5084.jpg

IV - This is one I bet nobody has seen. My source has sent me a photo showing what appears to be an SU-76 with some kind of new superstructure, which looks very distinctly Chinese, with the round type. It was probably specifically produced for the tank, and might have been a one off. It was probably intended as an SPG, not a TD. http://i.imgur.com/s0zEI16.jpg

V - LVT(A)-4 with 57mm ZiS-2. Very strange tank, converted in series, probably around the early 50s. It looks as if they've literally just taken an LVT(A)-4, removed the gun, and stuck a ZiS-2 (still with its gunshield) directly on to it. Obviously the PLA used non upgraded versions. https://encrypted-tb...y6srndtvzL4LIkL

VI - SU-100. The PLA was sold 99 in 1954 from the USSR. http://4.bp.blogspot...00/IMG_5091.JPG

VII - ISU-122.The PLA was sold 40 in 1950. These can upgrade into ISU-152s, of which the PLA got 67 in 1954. http://www.tanks-enc...um_20131004.jpg http://ftr.wot-news....01/ISU-122s.jpg

 

VII - Type 70-I. This is actually an SPG with a 122mm gun. There isn't a realistic SPG line that doesn't include Kuomintang / RoC vehicles. https://defence.pk/p...49e8a166b83db5b

 

IX - Maybe another SPG? 122mm Type 85? https://defence.pk/p...8d0b415f53b5f2d

 

X - Type 89. Armed with a 120mm smoothbore. http://www.military-...k_destroyer.htm

 

Premiums!

IV - Gongchen Tank - this is literally just a Chi-Ha Shinhoto that has a slight reskin and, reportedly, a new engine. Nationalism and CCP mythology sells, right? http://www.tanks-enc...a/gongchen_tank

 

V - M24 Chaffee. Captured in Korea. http://www.flamesofw...-History-43.jpg

 

VI - Cromwell Mk. VII of the King's Royal Irish Hussars. Captured in Korea.

VI - M4A3E8. Captured in Korea in 1951.

VI - M36 Jackson. Captured in Korea. http://www.flamesofw...-History-42.jpg

 

VIII - Centurion Mk. III. Captured in Korea

 

IX - WZ-122. Prototype. http://www.tanks-enc...ar/china/wz-122

 

X - T-62 #545 captured from the USSR during the Sino-Soviet Border Conflict, 1969. http://www.tanks-enc...d_T-62_tank.jpg

 

 

Like I say, this is only a 'what-if the PRC tree were historically accurate'. Obviously, some tanks in the lower tiers are weaker than they should be (NB. Chi-Ha), and some are very strong (Nb. tier Xs). I hope that you enjoyed this journey into the world of real history. I really don't like the VIII and IX in the TD line because they have basically no gun depression, so they'd struggle to operate as TDs. I originally left those two spaces blank, but thought I might as well add them to highlight the issue before some wiseguy tries telling me they fit.


Edited by kingofall43587, Apr 22 2017 - 20:59.


Brick94 #2 Posted Apr 22 2017 - 20:39

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What a waist, not one original tank that isn't already in the game.  Why in the hell would we want more duplicates?  We already have the Chinese and Czech lines.

Derp_o7 #3 Posted Apr 22 2017 - 20:40

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Too many copy/paste tanks.

 

Great line, but WG wouldn't put it in.



kingofall43587 #4 Posted Apr 22 2017 - 20:41

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View PostBrick94, on Apr 22 2017 - 19:39, said:

What a waist, not one original tank that isn't already in the game.  Why in the hell would we want more duplicates?  We already have the Chinese and Czech lines.

 

As I said in the OP - "Like I say, this is only a 'what-if the PRC tree were historically accurate'."

If you count, you'll also find that there are 11 tanks that aren't already in the game.


Edited by kingofall43587, Apr 22 2017 - 20:49.


ContraMuffin #5 Posted Apr 23 2017 - 00:47

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Excellent post, OP. I understand that WG will never implement so many tanks that are already in the game, but I would like for WG to implement the new tanks that you found to replace the BS ones. (Knowing WG, that won't happen)

n4cer67 #6 Posted Apr 25 2017 - 00:54

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They could at least give them Td's and Spg's.

Ta_Hun_Kwai #7 Posted Jan 22 2018 - 03:09

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ok so I've read this post over did some research & found that the current Chinese tech tree not counting the Chinese MT from tier 8 to 9 HT from tier 8 to 10 TD from tier 2 to 10 is accurate just some tanks are misnamed or streched out to fill in the tree case in point the Renault NC-31 is actually a Renault FT or a Renault NC-27 the T-34, T-34-85 china did receive these tanks but they just called the tanks Type T-34 & Type 58 also the T-34-1, T-34-2 are 100% fake also they streched out the Type 62 to cover 5 tiers when it should only cover tier 6, 7, 8 & the Type 62II upgraded version of type 62 should cover tier 9, 10

Edited by Yao_Wang, Jan 22 2018 - 03:10.


_Gungrave_ #8 Posted Jan 22 2018 - 03:19

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Current Chinese tree is just fine and a number of those high tiers in your suggestion are too modern using composite armor or smoothbore guns.

Edited by _Gungrave_, Jan 22 2018 - 03:20.





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