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Capping etiquette?


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GAJohnnie #61 Posted May 16 2017 - 22:12

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How much more exp do you get from winning the game then you get losing the game because you went chasing an addtional 100 hp in damage?

Captain_Rownd #62 Posted May 16 2017 - 22:33

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View PostCheesehead1964, on May 15 2017 - 14:21, said:

 

What's the cap etiquette?

 

It's all about the W.

 



BaconMeLoveIt #63 Posted May 16 2017 - 22:44

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View PostsPzAbt505, on May 16 2017 - 12:00, said:

 

There is none.  Win = win.

If someone tells you to get off the cap so he can hunt the enemy down and you don't want to, tell him to hunt faster.

 

True. Capping is also an insurance. If your team mates like to hunt the remaining enemy tanks; let them but stay on cap or just move out and back before it reaches 100. 

 

Really up to you if you want to move out and back on the cap circle. But for me, a win is a win. Just farm damage next match.



Wargods #64 Posted May 16 2017 - 22:58

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View PostRiesenschnauzer, on May 16 2017 - 19:47, said:

Where pray tell is this Stat Padding team bonus documented? And how much is it, and where is that documented? You keep arguing based on "fact" when none of those "facts" are in evidence. 

 

There is no Stat Padding team bonus.  Better players aren't better than you because they statpad.  Better players are better than you because they play better than you and understand game mechanics better than you.  Pretending otherwise is only doing yourself a disservice.  Removing 'statpadders' from the game won't make you a better player.  Learning to play better and learning game mechanics better make you better player.

 

Fact: there is a Team Performance Factor that gives EVERYONE ON YOUR TEAM - including YOU - a bonus XP multiplier based on "total damage inflicted".  It is a game mechanic.  It is documented in Wargaming's wiki.  Let me google that for you.  The exact numbers of WoT's XP algorithm are unpublished and there are too many variables - some of which are hidden - to reverse engineer it.  However, the difference is very obvious if you compare earned XP from 2 games where you performed similarly but one was a 15-X win and one was a cap win with lots of HP left on the battlefield.  That could be a 10-X win, or that could be 13-X win where the last enemy tanks are full health tier 10s.  It is less obvious at lower tiers (less total HP available) and as the number of HP left on the board decreases, but it is there.

 

There are no exact numbers because it is ultimately a judgement call.  You are more than welcome to spend thousands of game performing your own experiments to determine the exact number of HP you draw the line at for "Kill all" vs "Cap".  Spend untold hours coming up with a complex decision matrix about # of HP left vs speed of tank vs distance to enemy for each map and tier compared to skill of your team divided by skill of the opponent times the square root of time remaining plus pi.  Or, you can just follow a simple rule of thumb based on the reasons previously outlined: nineteen times out of 20, killing all is the better and more efficient choice for maximizing short and long term XP and credit earning. 

 

View PostDa_Craw, on May 16 2017 - 19:50, said:

 But most of the whining in chat comes in those situations like Mountain pass where your team has 1 on the South cap and the other team's last 1 or 2 tanks has just finished off the lone remaining cap defense after coming up the ice road.  Your team's TD who camped the bridge the whole battle now wants to go hunt down that last tank and is screaming NO CAP KILL ALL.  The reds have 100 hp left.  I don't think it is worth it to get off the cap even if there is a 100% chance the TD will get the kill, but I DON"T ACTUALLY KNOW THE NUMBERS.  Apparently, neither does anyone else.  

 

Two responses:

View PostWargods, on May 16 2017 - 18:35, said:

*** Please nobody respond with 'this one time at tank camp' stories as your evidence that capping is the better choice.  There are always outliers.  I've capped, because sometimes capping is the right choice - but most of the time it isn't.  The takeaway here is that nineteen times out of 20, killing all is the better and more efficient choice for maximizing short and long term XP and credit earning.

and

View PostWargods, on May 15 2017 - 15:08, said:

That being said, the difference between a 15-X win and an 14-X win is negligible.  If there are a couple enemy tanks and I have no chance of reaching them in time to get a shot in, I'll sit on cap.

 

As I said higher up, it is a judgement call.  See the takeaway.

 

View PostTankNoob1960, on May 16 2017 - 20:29, said:

The POINT of the GAME is to WIN.

Period.

"Anything else and you are doing it wrong."

 

If the point of the game is to win period, why aren't you only playing tier 1?  Your WR in teir 1 is your highest so you must be doing it wrong by playing any higher tier.

 

 

 

 

 



Tazilon #65 Posted May 16 2017 - 23:35

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View PostWargods, on May 16 2017 - 15:58, said:

 nineteen times out of 20, killing all is the better and more efficient choice for maximizing short and long term XP and credit earning. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Totally made up statement with 0 support.  You just pulled a number out of thin air and you know it.

 

All you people arguing for killing all make the same mistake in your logic.  You make the bonus seem like it is all or none.   In most situations, by the time cap is done, the majority of enemy hit points has already been eliminated, thus your bonus for knocking off the remaining hit points is small.   You have already secured most of the available bonus based on the hit points you have already eliminated and there is little additional bonus XP to be gained.

 

Furthermore, you get ZERO team bonus for eliminating hit points; the bonus is for XP only.  Refer to your own wiki link is you want to dispute that.

 

No one advocating capping is saying you should try to cap every game.  What we are saying is you people who think capping is always bad are WRONG.  Capping makes sense way more often than you think or admit.

 

As I said, until WNx and Eff Ratings came along, capping occurred way more often than it does now.  Why?  Because before people cared their stupid WNx numbers, they tried to win.  And capping is the smartest choice in many (note I didn't say "most") games.

 

It wins a lot of games which might have been lost.  It maximizes long term XP and credit gains.

 



Tazilon #66 Posted May 16 2017 - 23:41

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View PostGaussDeath, on May 16 2017 - 04:25, said:

 

Capping is inferior because it earns far less experience than shooting the enemy. Sure, you might be able to get it over fast, but what fun is that? The whole point of the game is to kill the enemy, not to win without fighting. 

While I am sure some people are stat farming for damage etc I would guess that that is not the primary motivation for most. In any case, capping is usually a poor tactical choice most of the time for the reasons I gave. Yes, your 'protect the light tank with our bodies' tactic could be made to work but this is pub matches we are talking about, not tournaments or clan wars. People don't readily work together in pub matches. 

 

The point of the game is to WIN   Capping for the win makes WAY more sense XP and credit-wise than does chasing around a couple tanks for a small amount of additional XP.  It makes WAY more sense to cap, take what you have already earned and go earn EARN MORE in the next game.

 

What you are arguing in this:  Hey fellow tankers, it makes more sense to prolong a game 3-4 minutes in pursuit of a couple hundred extra hit points and XP at most than use those 3-4 minutes in a new game with thousands of hit points and potential XP available for farming.   It makes NO SENSE.

 

Which would you rather do to earn a prize?   Shoot in the blind at a wall with 3 balloons or at a with 30 balloons?  You, apparently, advocate shooting at the wall with 3.


Edited by Tazilon, May 16 2017 - 23:42.


EgoSpartan #67 Posted May 16 2017 - 23:46

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Always always always go for the win!

GaussDeath #68 Posted May 16 2017 - 23:49

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View PostTazilon, on May 16 2017 - 15:41, said:

 

The point of the game is to WIN   Capping for the win makes WAY more sense XP and credit-wise than does chasing around a couple tanks for a small amount of additional XP.  It makes WAY more sense to cap, take what you have already earned and go earn EARN MORE in the next game.

 

What you are arguing in this:  Hey fellow tankers, it makes more sense to prolong a game 3-4 minutes in pursuit of a couple hundred extra hit points and XP at most than use those 3-4 minutes in a new game with thousands of hit points and potential XP available for farming.   It makes NO SENSE.

 

Which would you rather do to earn a prize?   Shoot in the blind at a wall with 3 balloons or at a with 30 balloons?  You, apparently, advocate shooting at the wall with 3.

 

No, that is not what I am arguing for at all, Did you even read my post? Perhaps you should go reread my post that you first responded to.

 

Here is a summary: People cap at inappropriate times and to the detriment of the team and their own ability to fight. Most of the time capping is a bad thing to do. Most of the time, not always. 

 

With that said, capping for negligible experience when killing the enemy works just as well deprives the team of experience and is being a jerk to people who are trying to accomplish whatever they are trying to accomplish (that 6th kill, more exp/credits, whatever). 

All the discussion about 'how much experience' or 'how much time' is irrelevant since we are talking in generalities and nobody has any hard data. And frankly, all the anecdotes about going after the last guy rather than capping causing a loss are just that, anecdotes. Probably happened at some point but it is not very likely. Being killed while capping is far more likely. 

 

Oh, btw. Your balloon analogy is flawed. There are multiple prizes here. "Win" is just one of them. Personally, my prize is not winning, it is personal performance by killing the enemy. And no, that has nothing to do with WN8. If I wanted to play capture the flag I would go play a different game. I am here to shoot tanks, not play capture the flag. 



Tazilon #69 Posted May 16 2017 - 23:57

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View PostWargods, on May 16 2017 - 12:35, said:

 

I'm sorry but that is absurd and wrong.

 

Yes, capping may get you to the next game a minute faster (needing 3+ minutes to finish those last few tanks is an outlier, not the average extra time needed), but the benefits of killing all are also superior long term. 

 

If the average game is ~7 minutes and you save a minute by capping that is an extra 14% of an average game.  Balance the fractional increase in XP and Credits of moving on to the next game a minute faster against what it actually costs you:

  • Lower Team Performance Factor XP bonus for you and your entire team than if you had killed all.
  • Lower XP and credits for you personally than if you were shooting, spotting, damaging, or killing one of those few remaining tanks.
  • You only get XP for base capture points if "the base was captured successfully".  All those times you sat on cap while your team finished off the enemy before the cap counter hit 100 - you got nothing, when you could have got personal XP and credits by joining in the shooting, spotting, damaging, or killing one of those few remaining tanks.
  • You are sitting in a base doing nothing for up to a minute and 45 seconds.  You just spent up to 25% of an average game not shooting, not spotting, not damaging, not killing, and earning less of a Team Performance Factor in the hopes of gaining 14% of a game to do something useful next game.  You seriously think that is efficient XP earning?
  • And really, 'saving' time by sitting on cap and doing nothing for a minute and 45 seconds?  If your gun was in the fight - where it belongs - it wouldn't be taking as long for your team to finish off those last few tanks.  More XP AND less time.
  • Here is the most important one: the Victory multiplier makes it smarter and more efficient to spend an extra minute in this game killing all than to cap in order to get to the next game a minute faster.  The minute spent in this game maxing Team Performance Factor, shooting, spotting, damaging, or killing one of those few remaining tanks comes with a 1.5 XP multiplier because of the victory.  The minute spent in the next game? Might be a win (1.5 multiplier), might be a loss (no multiplier).  For a 50% WR player, that extra minute next game will only average out to 1.25x bonus XP (your 56% WR only average out to 1.28x bonus XP). A minute to earn XP with a 1.5 multiplier is 25% more valuable than a minute to earn XP with an average of 1.25 multiplier. 
  • Here is another - capping adds XP but higher Team Performance Factor multiplies XP.

 

Those are the reasons why killing all gives you more XP and more credits than capping.  Short term AND long term.

 

*** Please nobody respond with 'this one time at tank camp' stories as your evidence that capping is the better choice.  There are always outliers.  I've capped, because sometimes capping is the right choice - but most of the time it isn't.  The takeaway here is that nineteen times out of 20, killing all is the better and more efficient choice for maximizing short and long term XP and credit earning.

 

 

As you said in our PM convo, you used "percentages of total hit points" for your spreadsheet.  Team Performance Factor is based on "total damage", not % damage.  In addition, you failed to take into account tier.  At tier 4, if two tanks are left full health, that is only 460HP.  At tier 9, if two tanks are left full health, that is 3000HP.  Percentage of HP left is the same, but that is an 8x difference when the XP bonus is based on "total damage inflicted".  With respect, failing to take those things into account not only make your spreadsheet meaningless but make your beliefs derived from that spreadsheet meaningless too.

 

 

Kill all - 2 or 3 players doing damage get a lot of extra XP and everyone else gets a little extra XP. 

Cap - 1 or 2 players get a little extra XP and everyone else gets LESS XP.

Tell me again which one is more selfish?

 

The contrary view is:

In reality, what people who insist on capping (given that killing all is viable) are saying is, "you 14 other players should all get less team performance XP so I alone can boost mine with some token cap XP", "I'm happy to screw you out of an epic medal so long as I get Invader", or "you know that scout that pestered the $%*& out of you all game and you want to get your revenge by killing his annoying @$$ at the end of the game?  Too bad as long as I get my token cap XP."

 

 

 

 

View PostGaussDeath, on May 16 2017 - 14:59, said:

 

You were not discussing capping near the end, your post specifically discussed capping fast and a strategy where capping is the primary goal rather than damage. I responded to that. 

 

Damage is nearly always going to get me more experience than capping. As for 'this session' sure, people can go for quick games (wins or losses), jump out, jump into another tank, repeat. Heck, there is an entire suicide charge strategy based on that. But I am not one of those people. I prefer to be one of the last people alive in the battle, fighting other tanks. Do I care about experience per minute? No. I care about the battle, not about the session. 

As I stated earlier, the point to this game is to fight tanks. Capping is not the point. Winning is only partially the point. Heck, I regularly get just as much exp/credits on losses thanks to Courageous Resistance awards. 

 

My earlier point still stands, most people don't know when/how to cap properly. 

 

No it did not..lol...I have always maintained the correct approach is to do whichever provides the fastest, safest way of victory.   Very rarely will capping at the onset of a game do that.  But as the game progresses the likelihood of capping becoming the most viable path to victory increases.

GaussDeath #70 Posted May 17 2017 - 00:10

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View PostTazilon, on May 16 2017 - 15:57, said:

 

 

No it did not..lol...I have always maintained the correct approach is to do whichever provides the fastest, safest way of victory.   Very rarely will capping at the onset of a game do that.  But as the game progresses the likelihood of capping becoming the most viable path to victory increases.

 

And do you think the common player knows what method is fasted and safest? As I have been saying, people don't know when it is appropriate to cap. Frankly, by the time a player learns when it is appropriate to cap that player won't need to do it very much, because he/she will be skilled enough to rake in far more exp from damage/kills.

 

It is my observation that skilled players don't usually need to cap to win while unskilled players don't know how to fight effectively so try to cap when it is inappropriate to do so. 



Tazilon #71 Posted May 17 2017 - 00:58

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View PostGaussDeath, on May 16 2017 - 17:10, said:

 

And do you think the common player knows what method is fasted and safest? As I have been saying, people don't know when it is appropriate to cap. Frankly, by the time a player learns when it is appropriate to cap that player won't need to do it very much, because he/she will be skilled enough to rake in far more exp from damage/kills.

 

It is my observation that skilled players don't usually need to cap to win while unskilled players don't know how to fight effectively so try to cap when it is inappropriate to do so. 

 

Not true. I get multiple cap wins every day I play; rarely by myself.  Capping can sometimes by highly dependent on tanks played.   Someone who always plays slow tanks won't get to cap as often as someone who plays faster tanks.

 

The numbers bear out it makes sense XP and credit-wise.  I have done the math using a wide variety of possible co-efficients of bonus, using average XP and average battle lengths as stated by VBAddict.   One can not just randomly make up numbers as another poster did.  One must use the hard data to derive any meaningful conclusions.

 

The big problem is Wargaming does not say what the XP coefficients are.  How much of a bonus does the team get for eliminating XP?  No one but Wargaming knows.  In most games, people cap in the end game.  Most hit points are already killed off.  Killing the few remaining can not possibly overcome what one would earn by moving on and starting another battle.  Remember long term, finishing faster means more games played overall.  Depending on the tier you play, that means every 3-7 minutes you save means you get to play an entire extra game.  All such things need to be included to make a determination as to which is better.

 

Winning by the fastest, most safe method is the best route to take.

 

The real problem with capping is people who cap when there is no chance of them succeeding or when them capping causes the team to lose.  That doesn't mean never cap. It means learn when to cap and when not to cap.

 

 



GaussDeath #72 Posted May 17 2017 - 01:08

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View PostTazilon, on May 16 2017 - 16:58, said:

 

Not true. I get multiple cap wins every day I play; rarely by myself.  Capping can sometimes by highly dependent on tanks played.   Someone who always plays slow tanks won't get to cap as often as someone who plays faster tanks.

 

The numbers bear out it makes sense XP and credit-wise.  I have done the math using a wide variety of possible co-efficients of bonus, using average XP and average battle lengths as stated by VBAddict.   One can not just randomly make up numbers as another poster did.  One must use the hard data to derive any meaningful conclusions.

 

The big problem is Wargaming does not say what the XP coefficients are.  How much of a bonus does the team get for eliminating XP?  No one but Wargaming knows.  In most games, people cap in the end game.  Most hit points are already killed off.  Killing the few remaining can not possibly overcome what one would earn by moving on and starting another battle.  Remember long term, finishing faster means more games played overall.  Depending on the tier you play, that means every 3-7 minutes you save means you get to play an entire extra game.  All such things need to be included to make a determination as to which is better.

 

Winning by the fastest, most safe method is the best route to take.

 

The real problem with capping is people who cap when there is no chance of them succeeding or when them capping causes the team to lose.  That doesn't mean never cap. It means learn when to cap and when not to cap.

 

 

 

Again, you continue to conflate what I am saying with what others are saying. I am not discussing (with you) the 'at the very end it is a win no matter what please get off cap so I can kill stuff'. That has no relevance to what I am discussing (with you). 

Quemapueblos #73 Posted May 17 2017 - 01:22

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As many people have said, the best strategy is the strategy that gets a win and sometimes that means sitting on cap, sometimes it means chasing enemy tanks down. Some players can get frustrated when a game is already won and they want to extend the battle out as long as possible to give them time to earn more EXP, this is a courtesy and not a rule.

Tazilon #74 Posted May 17 2017 - 01:45

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View PostGaussDeath, on May 16 2017 - 18:08, said:

 

Again, you continue to conflate what I am saying with what others are saying. I am not discussing (with you) the 'at the very end it is a win no matter what please get off cap so I can kill stuff'. That has no relevance to what I am discussing (with you). 

 

You said:

 

Block Quote

"It is my observation that skilled players don't usually need to cap to win"

 

 

That misses the point and totally misrepresents capping overall, as it infers only less skilled players "need" to cap.  

 

Although there are times where capping is the only path to victory, most caps are not conducted because one needed to cap; rather, they are performed because it is expedient to do so.  I would submit the TRULY skilled players recognize when those times occur and act in the appropriate manner.

 

 

 



Prussian12 #75 Posted May 17 2017 - 02:04

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It really depends on the situation. If there's a slow heavy tank that's low on health and with 5 ally tanks converging on it, then let those 5 tanks have more exp. But if it's a heavy tank with near full health, just cap. And if it's a fast light tank, cap and put pressure on him. People will make dumb mistakes if they're under pressure. 

 

 



madogthefirst #76 Posted May 17 2017 - 07:32

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View PostCheesehead1964, on May 15 2017 - 05:21, said:

Just finished a roll stomp. Helped out finishing off a KV1 and a few arty, and then three of us capped. There was one more enemy light way north, hiding out back by our base. A tank on our team tried to push us off cap.

 

I know in roll stomps the team usually finishes everyone off, but in this case the tanks I was with had just finished off a few tanks by the enemy base and I feel we were entitled to those cap points just as much as a tank chasing a lite all over creation. And for no other reason it might bring the lite out of hiding.

 

What's the cap etiquette?

Kill tanks if you can get to them, farm loser points if you can't. Above all else win.



GaussDeath #77 Posted May 17 2017 - 14:01

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View PostTazilon, on May 16 2017 - 17:45, said:

View PostGaussDeath, on May 16 2017 - 18:08, said:

 

Again, you continue to conflate what I am saying with what others are saying. I am not discussing (with you) the 'at the very end it is a win no matter what please get off cap so I can kill stuff'. That has no relevance to what I am discussing (with you). 

 

You said:

 

Block Quote

"It is my observation that skilled players don't usually need to cap to win"

 

 

That misses the point and totally misrepresents capping overall, as it infers only less skilled players "need" to cap.  

 

Although there are times where capping is the only path to victory, most caps are not conducted because one needed to cap; rather, they are performed because it is expedient to do so.  I would submit the TRULY skilled players recognize when those times occur and act in the appropriate manner.

 

 

 

 

How can my observation, something personal to me, misrepresent a point? I was not making a definitive statement. I was not making an inference. 

You really need to learn to not infer things which are not present. I did not state "only people who are not skilled need to cap". I stated that it was my OBSERVATION and even that it was just USUALLY.
Really, you need to stop misreading what I write. 

My observation: skilled players win by killing the enemy. They do not usually need to cap to win. Not a fact, not a statement of fact, not a judgement, just an observation. 

Perhaps you need to go look up the meaning of observation in a dictionary?

 

I find it rather amusing that your defense that you are not conflating my statement is to misrepresenting it outright. In any case continuing this conversation with you is pointless as you continue to conflate and misrepresent my statements. 



OldFrog75 #78 Posted May 17 2017 - 14:06

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View PostRiesenschnauzer, on May 16 2017 - 20:20, said:

 

 

Cap Etiquette? It should be to cap out. I mean if a fast moving tank has 5 kills, and is closing on the limping 15th tank, then get of Cap (to reset) then get back on. 

 

I've actually watched a bunch of Geniuses who cursed at me for getting on cap while up 14-9, only to win 14-14 because they all managed to die to the lone remaining tank, but I ignored them and capped out.

 

Guaranteeing a win is never bad form. 

 

I've seen this far too often to ignore it.  I'm in the boat with those who say, "Why risk losing a sure thing by trusting a few players I don't know, to not all get killed by a few other players I don't know?"

 

But I'm also new and if given a choice between a sure win and harvesting an additional 200 XP, I'll take the win everytime...and because I hate losing more (on a scale of 1-10), than I like getting damage (on a scale of 1-10).


Edited by OldFrog75, May 17 2017 - 14:17.


julius_of_bd #79 Posted May 17 2017 - 14:22

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I love that people are trying to look at the EXP earned if killing last few remaining tanks.  But you have to remember, if someone else kills that tank (or causes the damage to it), they get the EXP.  Not the guy who got of cap and never got to even shoot again.

 

So it is a bit of a catch 22.  The person on cap loses EXP if they get off, so the person chasing down red tanks gains EXP if they cause damage.  But if the capper stays on they gain EXP and the chaser loses out.  



GaussDeath #80 Posted May 17 2017 - 15:10

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View Postjulius_of_bd, on May 17 2017 - 06:22, said:

I love that people are trying to look at the EXP earned if killing last few remaining tanks.  But you have to remember, if someone else kills that tank (or causes the damage to it), they get the EXP.  Not the guy who got of cap and never got to even shoot again.

 

So it is a bit of a catch 22.  The person on cap loses EXP if they get off, so the person chasing down red tanks gains EXP if they cause damage.  But if the capper stays on they gain EXP and the chaser loses out.  

 

This cannot be proven. You get exp for being on cap when you complete capping. You get exp for the damage your team does. Nobody has the data to show which is the greater and which is the lesser.




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