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Put all premiums in the tech tree or make a non premium version bought with credits


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TodSoldat #121 Posted May 23 2017 - 01:10

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View PostLpBronco, on May 22 2017 - 19:02, said:

 

The Skorp is a tender box and yeah nice gun so what, the defenders are okay but I'll take the VK 100.101 P over any of them. The T26E5 just has an anemic alpha for tier. The 49 just has decent gun handling and good front armor but doesn't even see that much game play, must be a reason that as soon as everyone learned it's weaknesses it just got harder to play.  So you haven't made a case for P2W as you still have to know how to play to make these tanks work. What you do get are excellent crew trainers and credit makers. You don't want to pay then the IS-3 is still there for your amusement and is the match for any tier 8 in the game.

 

Man, you're only gonna catch their wrath, you know facts and common sense are forbidden in these tear filled and emotional threads

LovePrevails #122 Posted May 23 2017 - 02:01

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View PostLpBronco, on May 22 2017 - 21:02, said:

 

The Skorp is a tender box and yeah nice gun so what, the defenders are okay but I'll take the VK 100.101 P over any of them. The T26E5 just has an anemic alpha for tier. The 49 just has decent gun handling and good front armor but doesn't even see that much game play, must be a reason that as soon as everyone learned it's weaknesses it just got harder to play.  So you haven't made a case for P2W as you still have to know how to play to make these tanks work. What you do get are excellent crew trainers and credit makers. You don't want to pay then the IS-3 is still there for your amusement and is the match for any tier 8 in the game.
 

 

  These vehicles are over-performing statistically on a global level. This is not subjective. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter at all whether these vehicles possess any explicit weaknesses, whatever their nature, because these characteristics are clearly insufficient to keep them balanced for actual gameplay. In most cases they also possess positive traits that elevate them above tech tree vehicles of the same type (such as speed, accuracy and aim time in the specific case of the Skorpion), hence the statistical disparity.

 

  What you're doing is a bit like comparing an archer to a machine-gun operator and coming up with the conclusion that they're fairly evenly matched because they both have one weakness in common, such as the possibility of running out of ammo. I believe there is an idiom, 'seeing the forest for the trees', that applies perfectly to this situation.

 

  Finally, to clarify, the definition of P2W content that is generally accepted by online gaming communities is not at all about paying to receive an automatic winning condition, or paying to press a 'win button' as it were (not in the least because a game providing so egregious an example of P2W practices would no doubt be rejected by the gaming community at large).

  It would be more accurate to describe it as some kind of paid content that provides an advantage, whether minor or salient, over free content - an advantage that can be exploited to leverage higher performance and in this context a higher win ratio. Within this definition, a P2W tank isn't one that is so impenetrable and well-armed that it cannot possibly be defeated by free users. It is simply a Premium tank that is better than a free tank and allows players who control it to win more often, on average.

 

  Usually, none of this would matter in the slightest, but Wargaming has been taking steps to establish World of Tanks as a competitive game. If that is to come to pass, balance issues must be revisited, even those that concern Premium content.



Striker_70 #123 Posted May 23 2017 - 02:07

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They truly should be available for gold.  And I suspect they'll be forced to implement something to this effect in response to all the Chrysler K drama.

LpBronco #124 Posted May 23 2017 - 02:22

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You're also using some numbers that still represent an overall small data set as the numbers won't stay that high for the Chrysler as the community adjusts to the tank. The VK on the other hand has real carry potential and even I have a 75% winrate in 51 games. I can't make any of the premium tier 8 heavies play that well. ( I do okay in the generic Obj 252u and T26E5 but nothing approaching the influence the tier tree tank has). So you are using these numbers to make a case and it's just too early to do so.

 

I have almost all the premium content available and given how milquetoast most have been over the years, I'm enjoying having a few that actually perform nearer to standard tanks especially considering the expense of collecting these vehicles.



LovePrevails #125 Posted May 23 2017 - 03:13

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  I understand. The older Premiums can be frustrating to play at times, but the new batch only serves to make the problem worse - if they are superior to tech tree tanks, just imagine the horrible things they can and will do to these older Premiums that require special matchmaking rules to be considered playable.

  I also agree that the Chrysler K data set is too small to have any significance for the moment but my post referred to the Object 252U, AMX M4 mle. 49 and T26E5 specifically. These vehicles have been released some time ago, accrued a statistically relevant number of matches and I've already gone into detail as to how they've reshaped the meta. I believe they're more effective than the Chrysler K, in general, but that's just a rough estimate.

  The only thing that seems off concerning the newest Premium is the fact that the tank not only encourages its opponents to spam Premium ammunition to penetrate it (due to the lack of frontal weak spots) but also requires a generous load out of Premium ammunition itself in order to penetrate other tanks, even at the same tier. In that sense, it goes well beyond the other tanks in terms of forcing users to pay up.

LpBronco #126 Posted May 23 2017 - 21:53

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The tanks you've listed are superior to the older premium tanks. One of the "givens" has been my expectation that premium tanks will require premium ammunition to perform on tier which historically has been the case, this hasn't been mitigated completely although there are a couple of premiums now that suffice with standard ammo which just brings me back to value for dollar which these newer tanks have in spades.

 

You see the average winrates on these vehicles, now you need to look at the average winrates of the players themselves who are driving these numbers to really get a sense of the relative merit of the tanks themselves. My guess is the players who use these the most are better than the server averages to start. 



leon_phelps #127 Posted May 23 2017 - 23:21

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View PostStriker_70, on May 23 2017 - 01:07, said:

They truly should be available for gold.  And I suspect they'll be forced to implement something to this effect in response to all the Chrysler K drama.

 

keep suspecting they are never going into the ingame store they will be sold limited times as always. they wont sell them for gold cash price keeps numbers down on the servers

Edited by leon_phelps, May 23 2017 - 23:21.


LovePrevails #128 Posted May 24 2017 - 02:04

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View PostLpBronco, on May 23 2017 - 17:53, said:

The tanks you've listed are superior to the older premium tanks. One of the "givens" has been my expectation that premium tanks will require premium ammunition to perform on tier which historically has been the case, this hasn't been mitigated completely although there are a couple of premiums now that suffice with standard ammo which just brings me back to value for dollar which these newer tanks have in spades.

 

  I'd have to agree. I've never disputed their value to the consumer, far from it, in fact. But while the new Premium tanks provide great value to their owners, they also de-value the products previously acquired by other Premium tank owners by proxy, which is not alright in the slightest. Worse still is the effect they've had on competitive game modes. If these vehicles will not be nerfed (and they probably won't be, due to European law), then they must be made available to the player population by some other means.

 

View PostLpBronco, on May 23 2017 - 17:53, said:

You see the average winrates on these vehicles, now you need to look at the average winrates of the players themselves who are driving these numbers to really get a sense of the relative merit of the tanks themselves. My guess is the players who use these the most are better than the server averages to start. 

 

  Not quite - most tanks are played uniformly by players of various skill levels. The only exceptions would be CW reward tanks since their availability is restricted to players with high CW attendance and/or high CW performance. I'll post the links for reference below, but let me elaborate on the data represented in advance. I also apologize for the image-heavy post, but in all fairness, you've requested the data, indirectly.

 
  The blue dots or curves on these graphs represent the reference value or overall WR of the players involved in this analysis and the green dots or curves represent their actual WR in a specific tank. Generally speaking we'd expect their actual, tank-specific WR values to be just about the same as their overall WR, at least in the case of relatively well-balanced vehicles - if the green data point is lower than the equivalent blue data point, that would suggest the vehicle is under-performing in some way. The opposite is true for an over-performing vehicle.


  In addition, tank WR might face a spike or plummet at specific player WR values. This is subject to discussion but we might surmise that certain vehicles tend to under perform or over perform when played by particularly skilled or unskilled players; for example, lightly armored vehicles tend to under perform for the lower skill percentiles but this has less of an impact for the higher skill percentiles. With that being said, you'll notice that the new Premiums allow players of various skill levels to perform above their actual skill level. The Defender is a particularly blatant example.


  These are player/tank WR graphs for the T26E5 'Patriot':

 

  Object 252U 'Defender':

 

  AMX M4 mle. 49 'Liberté':


  Finally, this is the player/tank WR graph for the IS-3 (generally regarded as one of the best tech tree tier VIII tanks) superimposed with the three Premiums' :



  And that is why people have been saying the new Premiums are P2W content, for a long time now.

 

  In closing, this is not the first thread created to discuss the new Premiums. Performance-oriented communities such as the Wotlabs forums have realized these vehicles were overpowered at the day of their release. Posterior data has confirmed it.

 

  Edit: there's a spike followed by a plummet at the upper end of the IS-3's WR curve for the last month that I cannot explain for the life of me. It disappears once we increase the data set and roll back a couple of months, though. It's most likely an outlier.

  


Edited by LovePrevails, May 24 2017 - 06:34.





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