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What is the point of the Bat Chat 12T?


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ATankFullOfIdiots #41 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 04:03

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 12 2017 - 17:44, said:

 

The load limit does not have anything to do with the health of the module.  That's specifically a function of how much equipment/modules you can load on your tank.

 

The health of the 13 75 tracks are 140, btw...so they have less health and take less to track them.

 

and the fact that they can be hit from more angles due to the amount of open space all around them makes them easier to track than other tanks with armor covering the top of the track. Why do you think tank skirts were developed?  I don't know where you get your stats from but according to your chart pretty much any AP round 75mm and up is enough to break these tracks. 200 health is nothing. It's still possible to track heavier armored tanks but you pretty much have to hit the track dead on and a lot harder. 

Other nations light tanks have better hull and turret  armor profiles for easier ricochet and their guns and view range is comparable. The bc12t is still less preferable than there lights in the game. Maybe the devs will realize this in the near future and take some measures to fix it with a better tank.



QuicksilverJPR #42 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 16:53

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 13 2017 - 22:03, said:

 

and the fact that they can be hit from more angles due to the amount of open space all around them makes them easier to track than other tanks with armor covering the top of the track. Why do you think tank skirts were developed?  I don't know where you get your stats from but according to your chart pretty much any AP round 75mm and up is enough to break these tracks. 200 health is nothing. It's still possible to track heavier armored tanks but you pretty much have to hit the track dead on and a lot harder. 

Other nations light tanks have better hull and turret  armor profiles for easier ricochet and their guns and view range is comparable. The bc12t is still less preferable than there lights in the game. Maybe the devs will realize this in the near future and take some measures to fix it with a better tank.

 

Well the chart is from Tanks.gg, which is known to be a reputable source for in depth game info that is fact based and actually researched.  You denying this information is just further proof that no matter what someone says or shows as factual evidence, you're going to believe yourself over the facts/statistics that actually make up these parts of the game.

 

In short, your opinion is not correct.  I no longer care that you think otherwise as you are deluded by your own "skill" and your own "evidence"...



AGK47 #43 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 17:37

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I'm pretty sure the problem here lies between the chair and the keyboard. Others seem to do fine in the tank. Don't like it? Sell it. 

If you don't enjoy a line, why play it? 



ATankFullOfIdiots #44 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 18:32

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 14 2017 - 15:53, said:

 

Well the chart is from Tanks.gg, which is known to be a reputable source for in depth game info that is fact based and actually researched.  You denying this information is just further proof that no matter what someone says or shows as factual evidence, you're going to believe yourself over the facts/statistics that actually make up these parts of the game.

 

In short, your opinion is not correct.  I no longer care that you think otherwise as you are deluded by your own "skill" and your own "evidence"...

Never at any point have I claimed that I was the greatest player in the world; that seems to be your thing. It doesn't take that much game play to form an opinion about certain tanks. This is one of them. 

The fact that anyone puts some spreadsheet data before actual game play is idiotic. A tank may look good on paper but the true test is when it gets thrown into game play. You still have not made any convincing arguments for this horrible tank. All you do is take the "it works fine for me" stance. If this tank works for you, great. From a progression stand point it makes no sense. The 13-90 should have been left where it was and a better tank should have been introduced.



QuicksilverJPR #45 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 19:26

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 14 2017 - 12:32, said:

Never at any point have I claimed that I was the greatest player in the world; that seems to be your thing. It doesn't take that much game play to form an opinion about certain tanks. This is one of them. 

The fact that anyone puts some spreadsheet data before actual game play is idiotic. A tank may look good on paper but the true test is when it gets thrown into game play. You still have not made any convincing arguments for this horrible tank. All you do is take the "it works fine for me" stance. If this tank works for you, great. From a progression stand point it makes no sense. The 13-90 should have been left where it was and a better tank should have been introduced.

 

My problem with you is that you have been stating your opinion as an indisputable fact.  I countered with actual facts, as well as my own opinion.  That's how one goes about debating issues...providing evidence to support your claims.

 

Where's your evidence?



ATankFullOfIdiots #46 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 20:06

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 14 2017 - 18:26, said:

 

My problem with you is that you have been stating your opinion as an indisputable fact.  I countered with actual facts, as well as my own opinion.  That's how one goes about debating issues...providing evidence to support your claims.

 

Where's your evidence?

 

my opinion is based on use of the tank. I have stated over and over the flaws I have observed. You can post all of the charts you want but it isn't changing my opinion due to the fact that I don't see any of the points you are trying to make evident in the use of the tank. For all I know you only use this thing in T8 clan wars and use nothing but premium consumables and have tons of support from your clan. In every day public battles this thing is just bad.

QuicksilverJPR #47 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 20:14

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 14 2017 - 14:06, said:

 

my opinion is based on use of the tank. I have stated over and over the flaws I have observed. You can post all of the charts you want but it isn't changing my opinion due to the fact that I don't see any of the points you are trying to make evident in the use of the tank. For all I know you only use this thing in T8 clan wars and use nothing but premium consumables and have tons of support from your clan. In every day public battles this thing is just bad.

 

I'm telling you that I, along with several others here, are telling you that those issues that you state as fact do not reconcile with our experiences.  When you specifically tried to bring up information comparing one tank's tracks to another as your "proof", I then submit the actual proof (module HP and armor) which do not support your "feelings/observations".

 

Your feelings and opinions are only considered valid (globally) if they are also peer reviewed.  It just so happens that others do not share your viewpoint.  If you have an facts to add to the case to support your opinion, feel free to add them...



ATankFullOfIdiots #48 Posted Jun 14 2017 - 23:33

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 14 2017 - 19:14, said:

 

I'm telling you that I, along with several others here, are telling you that those issues that you state as fact do not reconcile with our experiences.  When you specifically tried to bring up information comparing one tank's tracks to another as your "proof", I then submit the actual proof (module HP and armor) which do not support your "feelings/observations".

 

Your feelings and opinions are only considered valid (globally) if they are also peer reviewed.  It just so happens that others do not share your viewpoint.  If you have an facts to add to the case to support your opinion, feel free to add them...

 

You can spout numbers all you want. The only thing that matters is how the tank compares to others in actual game play. You pointed out how much "burst" damage the gun could theoretically do using average numbers. You did not point out that lower tier tanks have more health than the burst damage it could do, or take into account reload time or the fact that loader is often wounded. Average damage is just that. It isn't the damage you are guaranteed to do every time. View range is also a static number and doesn't include opponents camo rating vs yours. Top speed and track values are fine but they are not consistent. Drivers get wounded tracks and engines are easily damaged. Gun performance is significantly impacted by damage. The new crew stun from HE rounds with the usual track damage is deadly. Sure the tank has good stats but they don't translate into usable game play for most players because of the nature of the class of tank in encounters with other tanks.

 

Good tanks are ones that preform reliably for the majority of the player base. Just because some people can use them well doesn't make them good.



QuicksilverJPR #49 Posted Jun 15 2017 - 15:02

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 14 2017 - 17:33, said:

 

Good tanks are ones that preform reliably for the majority of the player base. Just because some people can use them well doesn't make them good.

 

So going by your logic (and game stats), there are very few good tanks in this game, eh?

Also, can you change the rules and move the goalposts any more during this conversation?  You have no EVIDENCE to back up your claims.  I still posit that it is your abilities and not the tank(s).



ATankFullOfIdiots #50 Posted Jun 17 2017 - 00:57

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 15 2017 - 14:02, said:

 

So going by your logic (and game stats), there are very few good tanks in this game, eh?

Also, can you change the rules and move the goalposts any more during this conversation?  You have no EVIDENCE to back up your claims.  I still posit that it is your abilities and not the tank(s).

 

I have already stated that the armor profile, open and easily damaged tracks and worst gun in tier 8 light tanks are reason enough to not like this tank. Driving is only upgradable so much with upgrades and skills. Its small size and thin non angled armor result in crew injuries too often for an already small crew of only 3. Having 3 crew also means it will take longer to get more skills on them due to some crew doing more than one function.

You seem to want to make this about my skill but I'm thinking the whole issue here is your reading comprehension.



QuicksilverJPR #51 Posted Jun 17 2017 - 01:11

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 16 2017 - 18:57, said:

 

I have already stated that the armor profile, open and easily damaged tracks and worst gun in tier 8 light tanks are reason enough to not like this tank. Driving is only upgradable so much with upgrades and skills. Its small size and thin non angled armor result in crew injuries too often for an already small crew of only 3. Having 3 crew also means it will take longer to get more skills on them due to some crew doing more than one function.

You seem to want to make this about my skill but I'm thinking the whole issue here is your reading comprehension.

 

I'm making it about skill because it takes skill to make that tank work, just like all the auto loading tanks.  If you don't have the skill to use them, then you're going to have a very rough time in the game.  These are facts.  They are not in dispute.

 

So again, I don't have ANY of the issues you mention when driving the same tank.  Why would you think that your opinion matters more than mine?  Because that's what we're talking about here...



ATankFullOfIdiots #52 Posted Jun 17 2017 - 02:37

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 17 2017 - 00:11, said:

 

I'm making it about skill because it takes skill to make that tank work, just like all the auto loading tanks.  If you don't have the skill to use them, then you're going to have a very rough time in the game.  These are facts.  They are not in dispute.

 

So again, I don't have ANY of the issues you mention when driving the same tank.  Why would you think that your opinion matters more than mine?  Because that's what we're talking about here...

You can't defend the tank so you make it about the driver. The "I don't have a problem why does anyone else" argument only goes so far and won't cover up how bad this tank is for a tier 8. You laughably try to deflect the discussion away from the tank by making personal attacks when I'm not the only one saying how bad it is. Even if you are being serious, your defense of this tank really only applies to you. I encounter a lot more AMX 13 variants in games than this thing, more non French lights over all in fact. Which I can only conclude is due to how bad the French light line is. Maybe it also is because of how much you have to grind to the tier 9 mediums.

 

In any case you have failed to make any sort of viable argument for the tank.



QuicksilverJPR #53 Posted Jun 17 2017 - 17:27

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 16 2017 - 20:37, said:

You can't defend the tank so you make it about the driver. The "I don't have a problem why does anyone else" argument only goes so far and won't cover up how bad this tank is for a tier 8. You laughably try to deflect the discussion away from the tank by making personal attacks when I'm not the only one saying how bad it is. Even if you are being serious, your defense of this tank really only applies to you. I encounter a lot more AMX 13 variants in games than this thing, more non French lights over all in fact. Which I can only conclude is due to how bad the French light line is. Maybe it also is because of how much you have to grind to the tier 9 mediums.

 

In any case you have failed to make any sort of viable argument for the tank.

 

So posting actual stats with module HP and armor is not a viable argument...

How about YOU tell me what your version of a viable argument is, and I'll go that route, since you obviously can't stick to the actual scientific method that is accepted worldwide (observable/measurable/repeatable)...

 

Try moving the goalposts again.  Maybe that will work for you.



ATankFullOfIdiots #54 Posted Jun 17 2017 - 19:25

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View PostQuicksilverJPR, on Jun 17 2017 - 16:27, said:

 

So posting actual stats with module HP and armor is not a viable argument...

How about YOU tell me what your version of a viable argument is, and I'll go that route, since you obviously can't stick to the actual scientific method that is accepted worldwide (observable/measurable/repeatable)...

 

Try moving the goalposts again.  Maybe that will work for you.

 

My point has been all along that in total the tank is not worth being tier 8. You seem to want to cherry pick specific stats that may be good and you think support your argument. When taking an overall look at the tank the stats you point out just dont make up for the rest of its horrible game play. If you cant be honest and take into consideration the dynamic situations faced in combat then dont even bother to reply. You are incapable of thinking on a broader level. There has always been one goal post, which has been the evaluation of this tank as a whole in combat. Some people can play it well but then again you can find that to be true with any tank. 

QuicksilverJPR #55 Posted Jun 17 2017 - 21:17

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 17 2017 - 13:25, said:

 

My point has been all along that in total the tank is not worth being tier 8. You seem to want to cherry pick specific stats that may be good and you think support your argument. When taking an overall look at the tank the stats you point out just dont make up for the rest of its horrible game play. If you cant be honest and take into consideration the dynamic situations faced in combat then dont even bother to reply. You are incapable of thinking on a broader level. There has always been one goal post, which has been the evaluation of this tank as a whole in combat. Some people can play it well but then again you can find that to be true with any tank. 

 

Again, if the tank works just fine for skilled players, is the tank really the problem?  Or is it a skill level issue?  A bad tank for tier could be the AMX40, which even skilled players really do not like :trollface:

 

Also, you cherry picked "alleged stats" about it's tracks being weak compared to same tier LTs and even LTs under that tier, which I proved completely wrong with actual data and my own counter observations of actually having played the tank in question.  If your feelings are valid, then mine are too.  Sucks when we use the same lens of your logic, eh?

 

The overall look at the tank is that the only thing lacking on it is the gun/firepower, which is overcome with an understanding on how to best use it.  The same can be said for the M41 Bulldog and it's camo, or the LTTB and it's lack of gun depression, or the WZ-132 and it's not so great gun handling and speed.

 

Keep on moving that goalpost.  When you keep noticing that you're all alone in your own little world, maybe that's when you'll accept that there are other opinions and facts out there than yours.  Then again, looks like you don't or won't care...



Spammy #56 Posted Jun 19 2017 - 17:47

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I don't like the 12t. 

KorbanDallasMultipass #57 Posted Jun 20 2017 - 16:15

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View PostATankFullOfIdiots, on Jun 17 2017 - 13:25, said:

 

My point has been all along that in total the tank is not worth being tier 8. You seem to want to cherry pick specific stats that may be good and you think support your argument. When taking an overall look at the tank the stats you point out just dont make up for the rest of its horrible game play. If you cant be honest and take into consideration the dynamic situations faced in combat then dont even bother to reply. You are incapable of thinking on a broader level. There has always been one goal post, which has been the evaluation of this tank as a whole in combat. Some people can play it well but then again you can find that to be true with any tank. 

 

I'm really enjoying my time in the BC 12 T.  The place where I feel it excels is cleanup/distraction.  One thing I like to do if I can is I hang near an area where there is a big fight but out of view from the enemy.  When I'm reloaded and timed with with enemy tanks reloading (or not) I drive full speed right in the middle of them engaging auto aim getting my 4 shots off creating confusion and possibly finishing off 1-2 tanks all that while circling back out.   Now tif they turned to look at me they often wont be able to get a shot off because i'm right in between them, meanwhile the guys on my team now have easy flank shots.

 

Never engage close combat solo unless you know you can swoop out or one clip the enemy and try to be more of a support tank that swoops in undetected.  Also it's a scout, so scout.

 

And if you are lucky enough to get super good match making  then this happens. http://wotreplays.co...e/3649898#teams

 



ATankFullOfIdiots #58 Posted Jun 20 2017 - 22:35

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View PostKorbanDallasMultipass, on Jun 20 2017 - 15:15, said:

 

I'm really enjoying my time in the BC 12 T.  The place where I feel it excels is cleanup/distraction.  One thing I like to do if I can is I hang near an area where there is a big fight but out of view from the enemy.  When I'm reloaded and timed with with enemy tanks reloading (or not) I drive full speed right in the middle of them engaging auto aim getting my 4 shots off creating confusion and possibly finishing off 1-2 tanks all that while circling back out.   Now tif they turned to look at me they often wont be able to get a shot off because i'm right in between them, meanwhile the guys on my team now have easy flank shots.

 

Never engage close combat solo unless you know you can swoop out or one clip the enemy and try to be more of a support tank that swoops in undetected.  Also it's a scout, so scout.

 

And if you are lucky enough to get super good match making  then this happens. http://wotreplays.co...e/3649898#teams

 

 

sure. I even finished up my last light mission in that tank. Having an auto loader seems to be made for those situations. If enemy players ignore you or you can avoid confrontation, great. If you can sit in a bush and spot and snipe all game great. Any light will do well in those situations. When comparing tanks you have to take into account the entirety of game play which includes coming into contact with other tanks and that is where this tank stops being ok in any way. Low health, crew and modules that are easily wounded. Small crew size so they have to double up on skills. Low Dpm gun, yes it has burst but long reload and the lowest average damage per shell of all the t8 lights. No angled armor for bouncing shots. IMO the tank has some good points but it isn't all good as some people are trying to say.

 

Every tank in the game can be played well by someone, that doesn't mean it is good.



Schozzbot #59 Posted Jul 01 2017 - 01:14

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I am now 1-11 in this fangled B-C 12t.

 

Go me.



Ape_Drape #60 Posted Jul 25 2017 - 21:27

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I don't particularly enjoy the french lights, but I've been getting decent play out of the 12t. It is a fun little tank. I like it more than the 13 90 due to the 13 90's long reload and poor accuracy.




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