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9.20 Supertest of Rebalanced Vehicles: Japanese tanks


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BigNaturals #61 Posted Jun 22 2017 - 01:33

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well when i play my type 5 i see np with people penning me in its current state, once it starts i melt

stalkervision #62 Posted Jun 22 2017 - 03:46

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Jun 20 2017 - 13:09, said:

260 and 270...flat on.....is weak?

 

WG...what is the pen of tier 10 tanks (non gold)

what is the pen of tier 8 and 9s that will SEE this?

 

 

i'm hoping those pictures are just not updated and you actually ment 240mm.  not 260.(effective)

 

also.  tier 9 has tier 7 and 8s that see it.   a weakspot must be pennable by them.   avg pen of tier 7 is 175.   avg pen of tier 8 is 210.

 

see an issue there?  i said AVG.    aka there are tanks with less.  

 

 

weakspots are not weakspots if you STILL NEED GOLD TO PEN THEM.

 

 

 

 

everyone shoots gold constantly now except me, what's the difference? :sceptic:

Strike_Witch_Tomoko #63 Posted Jun 22 2017 - 03:59

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View Poststalkervision, on Jun 21 2017 - 19:46, said:

 

everyone shoots gold constantly now except me, what's the difference? :sceptic:

 

i don't shoot gold <.<

 

and why should i be FORCED to shoot gold to pen something.  whats the point of having normal ammo in the game



stalkervision #64 Posted Jun 22 2017 - 04:06

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View PostStrike_Witch_Tomoko, on Jun 21 2017 - 21:59, said:

 

i don't shoot gold <.<

 

and why should i be FORCED to shoot gold to pen something.  whats the point of having normal ammo in the game

 

good for you. when I find someone not shooting gold which is very rare nowadays I am pleasantly surprised.

VillainousButler #65 Posted Jun 22 2017 - 08:03

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View PostBlake_Poto, on Jun 20 2017 - 08:09, said:

Hopefully we will see the Maus get nerfs soon as well

 

Die in a fire.

Thank you.



BashirTheTrainMaster #66 Posted Jun 22 2017 - 19:24

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View PostScrubIord, on Jun 21 2017 - 17:41, said:

 

I know spaced armor will increase effectiveness, I assumed you said shell type increased effectiveness.

Still tracks or not 550mm+ effectiveness against 215b apcr is stupid

Spoiler

 

 

Lets use a legitimate side armor shot of the Maus which is about 300mm on the lower side. In no world is the Type's armor that strong on the side to AP shells. 

landedkiller #67 Posted Jun 25 2017 - 18:48

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View Postdance210, on Jun 20 2017 - 10:57, said:

Not so long ago we’ve shared the plans about the rebalancing of some vehicles branches. And today we’re ready to share the first details about the upcoming changes: to the ST go the Japanese tanks. We plan to test a complex change of vehicles of medium and top tiers. The purpose of rebalancing Japanese heavies is to improve the branch balance, to save battle effectiveness and applicability of Japanese heavies, and at the same time to create equal conditions in battle for the vehicles of other nations.


We plan to test the following vehicles:

  • Tanks of Tier IX and X will have revised armor: We added some parts to the front armor with thickness of 240-260 mm for Tier X and 220-240 mm for Tier IX. Their maneuverability and speed will be adjusted so they are a bit better than what the Maus has. The frontal armor of these vehicles, unlike Germans of the same class, didn’t have any vulnerabilities and could only be penetrated with premium ammo. We have added the changes to some parts of frontal armor to make it possible for their opponents to fight them on equal terms. 

      

  • The tank of Tier VIII O-HO will get premium ammo with an armor penetration value around  250-260 mm for the gun 10 cm Experimental Tank Gun Kai. Previously, this gun didn’t have AP shells with enough penetration for damaging, due to which players didn’t have opportunity to choose game style – the tank was playable only as a derp.
  • The tank O-I will have a bit weaker rear armor, in order to decrease tank’s domination in a battle, especially towards the tanks of lower tiers.  Previously, low-tier vehicles could not damage the O-I even if they managed to flank it. After the changes flanking will work. 

  • Tank O-I Exp V of Tier V will get improved front armor in order to more effectively stand against high-tier vehicles and to perform the role of breakthrough tank. Moreover, 105-mm gun will be removed from this vehicle, which was disproportionately effective on Tier V. The mobility of the tank will be decreased.

 

Russian rebalance?

xxtankmasterx #68 Posted Jun 26 2017 - 23:41

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Tell me if the type five is so imbalanced that it wrecks games then WHY are they the rarest t10 heavy for randoms. Why have i never even SEEN one in ranked battles? I'll tell you. In THEORY they should be the most OP t10 heavy with "no weakspots" in practice it's a different story. First I will address the stupid derp they decided to put on it. It is WORTHLESS. when shooting the BS magic gold HE rounds you get lucky to deal as much as the OI gun on most targets due to the vast majority of your targets carrying spall liners and having more armor, but unlike the Oho which gets a 14 sec reload on the 15cm the type 5 gets an 20 second reload, making the derp a VERY underpowered gun even if you are shooting pure gold (grille and other similar tanks exempted). Now lets compare its regular HE shells to other t10 heavies. The E100 also gets a 15 cm, but the E100 gets a 16 second reload and while the E100's HE shells have ~200 less damage they pack 85mm of penetration, and they have .1 less dispersion which more then makes up for the lack of alpha, and that is before you account for the reload time, and this is the lowest powered round in the E100's arsenal. Now to address the armor, I will be the first to admit that the armor on the front of the type 5 is daunting to most tanks without a real weakspot. contrary to popular belief I discovered that it is not the case, and that it DOES have a weak spot which a BC 25t penned me 4 times in a row with regular rounds on. Also they are EXTREMELY easy to set on fire AND ammorack on BOTH the side and the rear.Quit whining and USE YOUR FLIPPIN SPEED the type 5 is about as slow as they come if you cant get it alone or have enough people to bum rush it, then go help your teammates on the other parts of the map until it is alone. the type 5 and 4 spend most of their time alone and trying to leep up with it's team, get it alone and get to its side and it might as well be a loltrackor.

xxtankmasterx #69 Posted Jun 27 2017 - 02:17

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Also I just got oneshot ammoracked in my Type 5 hvy from a shot from a defender in my front hull NOT shooting gold

BrassFire #70 Posted Jun 28 2017 - 23:42

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View PostScrubIord, on Jun 21 2017 - 04:32, said:

WG needs to kick out its supertesting team and get a new one

Can someone explain to me how this is possible?

 

BAHAHAHA!

 

HOLY CRAP, I FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR!



BrassFire #71 Posted Jun 29 2017 - 00:28

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View PostScorpiany, on Jun 21 2017 - 10:58, said:

Alright, so here are my thoughts on this:

 

Type 5 Heavy: Bad changes.

Explanation: You guys seem to have missed the point with adding in weakpoints for the Type 5 Heavy. A 260-270mm zone isn't a "weakpoint" to most tanks unless they're Tank Destroyers. Any heavy tank or medium tank fighting against the Type 5 Heavy will still have to require Premium ammunition to be able to penetrate it reliably. A very high penetration gun on a Russian medium tank will only have a 50/50 chance to penetrate those zones, if it manages to get them completely flat at close range. If the Type 5 angles it even slightly, even Russian meds will struggle from close range. Anything else, such as Tier 10 heavy tanks, still don't stand a chance without HEAT / APCR.

 

Proposed Fix: 

  • Make the highlighted zones between 240mm-250mm thick.
  • Make the lower plate 260mm thick.
  • Make the cupola 175mm thick.

 

The highlighted zones already have a slight angle to them, so their effective armor is approximately 10mm greater than the raw nominal thickness. Making them 240mm thick will make them about 250mm effective; giving same Tier heavies at least a 50/50 to penetrate in optimal circumstances. Making the lower plate 260mm gives lower penetration TD's and high pen meds a closer to 50/50 chance to penetrate as well. The cupola is well angled, so 175mm thick would still be 220-230mm thick; especially since some tanks have to shoot up at it. This gives Tier 8's and 9's a chance to penetrate the tank with higher pen guns, and lower pen guns can go through with Premium if they aim well.

 


 

Type 4 Heavy: So-So Changes.

 

Explanation: As with the Type 5 Heavy, the purpose of lowering the armor thickness in the highlighted areas, is to give tanks a reasonable chance to penetrate if they aim well in ideal circumstances. The Type 4 Heavy, being a Tier lower, needs to have some sort of armor chance to give Tier 7's and even Tier 8's some kind of remote chance of fighting against it. Whilst the change does make it reasonable against Tier 10 tanks now, lower Tier vehicles still don't stand a chance.

 

Proposed Fix:

  • Make one of the highlighted zones down to 225mm-230mm thick
  • Make the cupola 160mm thick (220ish effective)

 

The Type 4 Heavy breaks game balance for lower Tier and even same Tiered vehicles by presenting armor which simply cannot be penetrated even with careful aim. For some tanks, premium ammunition isn't even enough. If you make one of the highlighted zones about 230mm effective, that presents a viable weakpoints for most Tier 9-10 tanks, and even a few Tier 8 tanks. Then, by making the cupola 220mm effective, you give another opportunity to contest its armor, in case the Type 4 Heavy is well angled (in which case the 230mm highlighted zone becomes too thick to penetrate).

 


 

O-Ho: Good Changes.

 

Explanation: It was always strange that the O-Ho didn't have any Premium shell. Whilst 230mm of AP pen at Tier 8 is pretty good, most Tier 8's need at least some amount of Premium ammo to be able to fight against higher Tier tanks; especially with how many recent armor buffs there have been. Giving it a 265mm Premium shell would make the 10cm gun a viable choice.

 

Proposed Fix: Make the Premium ammo on the 10cm up to 265mm of penetration. 250-260mm won't quite be enough; especially considering that the O-Ho will primarily be fighting other slower, heavily armored vehicles.

 


 

O-I: Good Changes

 

Explanation: The rear armor of the O-I left new players baffled when they couldn't penetrate what the game's tutorial calls "the weakest point of the armor". Giving it numerous weaker zones is definitely a step in the right direction.

 

Proposed Fix: I would suggest adding in some kind of weakpoint, albeit relatively small, at the front of the tank as well; with about 110mm of effective armor. In its current state, some tanks are still required to resort to firing Premium ammunition at the O-I; especially if the matchup puts them in a tight city brawl with the only real chance of victory being to take out the enemy's O-I.

 


 

O-I Experimental: Very Good Changes

 

Explanation: The O-I Experimental in its current state simply does not reflect how the rest of the tank line plays out, and is a combination of excessively strong vehicle characteristics. Removing the 105mm (Called 10cm in-game) gun is definitely a correct decision, as it was undoubtedly far too much alpha damage for a Tier 5 tank with so much mobility and armor. Reducing the mobility and increasing the armor effectiveness, will make it a more "proper" Tier 5 heavy tank, and better fit the playstyle of a heavy tank as well as fit the playstyle of the rest of the Japanese heavy tank line.

 

Proposed Fix: Make the mini-turrets on the front of the tank approximately 90mm effective armor, so that KV-2's and O-I's won't be penetrating the front of it with HE shells. They'll still be a sufficient weakpoint for most tanks, but also will stop the tank from constantly being one-shot (Which is going to be more of a problem when the tank doesn't have the mobility to get into cover).

 

I think that the tutorial should also point out that the SIDES of tanks are weak. The O-I's biggest weakness- hell, the biggest weakness of the entire Jap heavy line until Tier IX and X- is the side armor. The O-I's sides are so weak you can punch right through them with a Tier IV tank in most cases. Even Tier III TDs can take it.

Edited by BrassFire, Jun 29 2017 - 00:30.


Insurrectional_Leftist #72 Posted Jun 30 2017 - 16:23

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View Postchzwhz, on Jun 20 2017 - 17:03, said:

But how did the tanks get into the game in such an unbalanced state in the first place?

 

Long enough for certain people to "Pad their stats into oblivion !", and then the next people that try to run that tank, or the one's who have been grinding to finally get the tank will have a more impossible task, or never will reach the same statistical mark as they did etc....  Which is another reason why the 3rd party stat systems are flawed, and don't truly reflect actual comparative skills over "historical nerfs" "adjustments" and therefore are not truly an accurate measure of this so-called skill inflection people think.  They all forget about that when these "Nerfs" occur.

 

WG does this of course, they refuse to make changes quickly, cause they can make money off of people spending gold etc. to reach these tanks, who want to get their hands on them sooner the better, before they are nerfed.  "And the cycle continues then."



mattwong #73 Posted Jun 30 2017 - 18:15

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Unbelievable.  The game is overrun with gold-spamming light tanks and high-tier TDs that can shred tanks without being seen, and people are worried that the Japanese super-heavies are hurting the game.



supercrewjohn #74 Posted Jun 30 2017 - 21:21

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Yes .. it seems that every new tank line is a Maus like Heavy.  There was only one Maus.  The japanese didnt have anything that was even remotely real.  The description of the tank that they did have had an 11 man crew, and only a 105 howitizer.   WOT can you please make these tanks for what they actually are.  Totally fictious.  Every real tank is this game needs to be buffed in this game.  

 

Also, stick to a historical period of technology.  All of those swedish tanks are at least 1950' origin.  

 

Finally, light tanks.  Come on guys, a heavy should never be out gunned by any French AMX.  Not only are most of them figments of your developers imagination, but certainly could never take down a Patton or a Centurion or any other real tank.  

 

It is a video game, and I get that you can imagine anything, but come on, this game is becoming retarded as it is totally unbalanced and flooded with Premium fake tanks.



supercrewjohn #75 Posted Jun 30 2017 - 21:22

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Might as well add the Abrams as it is the same time period as the AMX 13 -90  

pepe_trueno #76 Posted Jul 05 2017 - 00:39

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View Postmattwong, on Jun 30 2017 - 18:15, said:

Unbelievable.  The game is overrun with gold-spamming light tanks and high-tier TDs that can shred tanks without being seen, and people are worried that the Japanese super-heavies are hurting the game.

 

sad but true.

 

the issue with armor is that it cant be balanced, if WG balance it around the idea of said tank facing lower tiers or standar rounds then the armor becomes useless once people hit "2". if WG balance it around people using gold then the tank becomes OP against anything that is not  same tier shooting gold.

 

same with weakspots, if the weakspot is big or easy to hit the tank could have 999 armor and it would still be useless, if its tiny or easy to hide then the weakspot wont make much of a diference.

 

truth is that the only way to balance armor is with maps, a heavy armored tank should be close to inmune from the front and win battles by outlasting the enemy becouse thats their thing but in exchange they should be easy targets once flanked, but for that to work we need maps that suport more than just "in your face" brawling and a proper balance where each role has a place.

 

as for type 4/5 derp they arent as broken as many seem to believe, it may always do damage and is a direct counter to sidescraping tactics but 200-400 dmg every 17-20 secs is not a lot for a t10.  gold rounds are broken just like the rest, the only diference is that instead of geting obscene levels of pen  they get more damage.

 

 

 

 



DeathNACan #77 Posted Jul 06 2017 - 07:37

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View Postdance210, on Jun 20 2017 - 11:57, said:

Not so long ago we’ve shared the plans about the rebalancing of some vehicles branches. And today we’re ready to share the first details about the upcoming changes: to the ST go the Japanese tanks. We plan to test a complex change of vehicles of medium and top tiers. The purpose of rebalancing Japanese heavies is to improve the branch balance, to save battle effectiveness and applicability of Japanese heavies, and at the same time to create equal conditions in battle for the vehicles of other nations.


We plan to test the following vehicles:

  • Tanks of Tier IX and X will have revised armor: We added some parts to the front armor with thickness of 240-260 mm for Tier X and 220-240 mm for Tier IX. Their maneuverability and speed will be adjusted so they are a bit better than what the Maus has. The frontal armor of these vehicles, unlike Germans of the same class, didn’t have any vulnerabilities and could only be penetrated with premium ammo. We have added the changes to some parts of frontal armor to make it possible for their opponents to fight them on equal terms. 

      

  • The tank of Tier VIII O-HO will get premium ammo with an armor penetration value around  250-260 mm for the gun 10 cm Experimental Tank Gun Kai. Previously, this gun didn’t have AP shells with enough penetration for damaging, due to which players didn’t have opportunity to choose game style – the tank was playable only as a derp.
  • The tank O-I will have a bit weaker rear armor, in order to decrease tank’s domination in a battle, especially towards the tanks of lower tiers.  Previously, low-tier vehicles could not damage the O-I even if they managed to flank it. After the changes flanking will work. 

  • Tank O-I Exp V of Tier V will get improved front armor in order to more effectively stand against high-tier vehicles and to perform the role of breakthrough tank. Moreover, 105-mm gun will be removed from this vehicle, which was disproportionately effective on Tier V. The mobility of the tank will be decreased.

 

I fail to understand the rational of removing the 105 from the OI Experimental when there are Tier V mediums that also have a 105 such as the Sherman III, M4 Sherman, Panzer IV.  No, I'm not suggesting you remove the 105 and 10.5cm guns from them too.  I have to ask, have you considered how poorly a Tier IV non-tank destroyer is going to do against the OI Experimental once you boosts its armor?  It seems to me you are pretty much making sure that a tier IV tank doesn't stand much of a chance against it.

Qazdarf #78 Posted Jul 12 2017 - 06:46

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The O-I Exp is my most driven tank, so I know what I'm talking about and I've done my research. I've driven it a lot and killed plenty of them. It's actually balanced in the state it is in right now, it doesn't really need changing. The only thing that makes it feel OP is when there are multiple O-I Exps in the same match while the other team has low alpha guns. This isn't a problem with the tank but rather the matchmaking itself.

 

The 10.5cm gun is actually balanced and promotes good gameplay. If anything you should be removing the 12cm gun.

Removing the 10.5cm will make people run the 12cm with HEAT, which actually has more of everything. More pen, more damage, more DPM, higher ability to damage higher tiers and it will absolutely guarantee that you one shot lower tiers. Even if they don't run HEAT they'll run HE with 440 alpha and that'll crap on lower tier tanks even more. Currently the O-I Exp cannot mindlessly pen everything and 300 damage usually leaves most enemies alive long enough so they can get shots in while you reload rather than them instantly dying. Two 10.5cm shots isn't usually enough to kill equal tier heavies unless you get lucky high rolls, but with the 12cm HEAT the average damage will kill any tier 5 heavy in just two hits.

 

It needs the mobility that it has to compensate for the weaknesses it has.

Making it less mobile will just make it an easier target for tanks that can pen it, and it's currently huge enough to negate the effects of dispersion on most guns. It's like shooting a barn. Arty can hit it easily, derp guns from lower tiers, really anything.

If you're going to reduce the mobility you should also reduce the size of the tank.

 

Buffing the frontal armor is stupid and it will turn this tank into absolute cancer if the proposed changes go live.

105mm of armor is a lot for some standard ammo, but nothing at all against gold and certainly nothing against any tier 7 in the game. Breakthrough tank in higher tiers? My [edited]. Tier 3s can eat through that with gold, and a lot of tier 4s (but not all) can go through it with standard ammo. You're just encouraging gold spam. You should leave the armor as is and instead just give the tank pref MM so it doesn't have to see Tier 7s and forget this whole breakthrough tank nonsense altogether.

 

Right now it plays like a huge medium tank with a high alpha gun.You should preserve the unique playstyle that it offers. The fact that it's gigantic and has thin and flat armor with plenty of weak spots which make angling completely ineffective already do a fine enough job balancing it.

 

 

As for the change to the hull of the O-I I feel it's dumb and is just rewarding stupid players.

The back of the hull should remain armored, the sides are weak enough as is. Anyone who can flank it should be shooting it in the sides, not the back.

 

Now the nerf to the armor thickness at the back of the turret on the O-I that's a good idea. If you get shot in the back of the turret you deserve to be hit. Though with that said since it is quite literally impossible to hide the turret in many situations since it's so tall, maybe since you're weakening the rear of the turret you could slightly buff the front of it?



RagnarokBazil #79 Posted Jul 12 2017 - 13:47

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I LIKE  how no one ever considers flanking a heavy tank... Get it distracted Simple... After it fires you got 16sec of Open time to land a smack down on them.. Id say dont nerf the Maus and Type 5 armor UNTIL they nerf everyone's gold shells as a whole... THAT'S the real problem here not the type 5 or the maus.

JoeBob4ever #80 Posted Jul 12 2017 - 20:48

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Slowing the experimental and taking away the best gun will make this another Type 95.  It was a bit overpowered for tier 5 but usually you see 6's and 7's so it balances out.  Why couldn't they reduce the damage or the pen on the gun? 






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