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Feedback - Changes to Matchmaker

Patch 9.19.1

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Faster_Blaster #21 Posted Jul 17 2017 - 12:19

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What's the reason half team being lights and SPGs? 



CaptCaveman60 #22 Posted Jul 18 2017 - 01:09

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nothing more than dangeling beads,until you take an objective look at the MM IE, stacking sides with higher skilled and tanks that support well VS. a mix match of low skill players, and tanks that have no chance. this is happening from day one.

darkjuggernaut #23 Posted Jul 18 2017 - 05:27

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Matchmaker is nowhere near balanced.  In fact it's gotten much worse than it was 2 years ago.  Players are starting to leave and looking forward to Call of Duty WW2 which will have much better matchmaking.  Maybe Wargaming could learn from that game.

 

https://ibb.co/d2OkPa



EnginePower #24 Posted Jul 18 2017 - 22:43

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My current problem with the matchmaker was the adjustment to make 3/5/7 battles the preferred template for all tiers as it does not properly address the boundary conditions of this matchmaking problem. For tiers 4 through 7, it works well because there are an plenty of players on the server playing in tanks that are both higher in tier and lower in tier than the tier that they are playing thus the matchmaker can give them plenty of battles where they are top, bottom or mid tier and just, for example, bottom tier. As outlined above, however, this matchmaker system doesn't work well for the boundary 3 tiers (1 through 3 and 8 through 10). The bottom of the spectrum is still, at least to my understanding, guided by the low tier matchmaking where tier 1 tanks will predominately see tier 1 tanks with a tier 2 maximum battle every now and then while tier 2 and tier 3 will share in a similar variety of matches as the mid tiers due to the availability of tanks with tiers above theirs in addition to the fact that tier 2s can be placed in with tier ones and there seems to be a preference in the matchmaker for tier 2/3 battles. Thus, the problem at this end of the spectrum is nonexistent due to the fact that a separate matchmaking system appears to overrule the new one. The problem, in my opinion, really occurs at the other boundary in this problem, tiers 8 through 10. Since the priority is set to be a 3/5/7 template, every time a player in a tier 10 tank presses the battle button, it mandates that another 5 tier 10 tanks, 10 tier 9 tanks and 14 tier 8 tanks be placed into the same battle to satisfy the priority condition that has been set. The problem then becomes quickly apparent as the highest load in this case will be on the matchmaker to get tier 8s into this battle. Now, I don't have a statistic on the popularity of each tier but I believe that tier 8 is not that much more popular than tier 10. This means that for the same population of tier 10 tanks in the matchmaker, it needs more than double the number of tier 8 tanks in the matchmaker to satisfy the 3/5/7 template, especially since tier 10 is top tier and thus will never be in the mid or bottom tiers in this setup. As a result, which is something that I have seen and there has certainly been plenty of complaints about on the forum and in the game, tier 8s will predominately be bottom tier in order to satisfy the current conditions of the matchmaker. In addition, I believe that the matchmaker prioritizes the 3/5/7 template over allowing players to be top tier, thus someone who enjoys to play tier 8 can spend the entire day playing tier 8 and may not even see a top tier match due to this system. This result, in my opinion, has made tier 8 a very unforgiving tier to play at. While I certainly enjoy the challenge of seeing tier 10s with a tier 8, it isn't the best experience to be bottom tier the entire time due to the matchmakers limitations created by the need for the matchmaker to create a 3/5/7 game for tier 10s.

 

Solution: I can't give the exact solution numbers but I suggest making the matchmaker dynamic in its templates for the high tier tanks. Instead of placing a blanket restriction that battles must be in a 3/5/7 format a majority of the time, make it so that some of the other templates are utilized more in the upper tiers. Currently, it is possible to see an all tier 10 match or a 10 tier 10, 20 tier 9 match but I believe these templates are only utilized when the matchmaker cant get a 3/5/7 template to work. My suggestion is to make the all tier 10 and the 10 tier 10, 20 tier 9 matches more prevalent in this matchmaker. This should alleviate a lot of the stress on tier 8 and allow players at that tier to see more top tier and mid tier matches. However, proper tuning of these template occurrences is needed as the new system shouldn't shift the stress onto tier 10s or tier 9s rather it should spread the stress to all three tiers. My guess is that the best tuning would be for the 3/5/7 template to scale down in frequency in tier 9 and 10 while the other 2 templates increase in frequency to the point where tier 10s will see each of the templates roughly 1/3 of the time.

 

I'll admit that this kind of tuning might put new stress on the matchmaker in the mid tiers but a similar process should then be employed to fix the matchmaker at those tiers so that the matchmaker is truly dynamic and able to make everyone see top, bottom and mid tier matches without any one tier taking on additional stress of being bottom or mid tier due to the limitations of the matchmaker and its use of the templates



B00BLEMAX #25 Posted Jul 20 2017 - 05:09

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I like the new 3 5 7, but my tier 8's keep being but into tier X matches. like 60% of the time i'm bottom tier. seems like there's some issues with single tier matches at tier X or there isn't enough diversity

Edited by B00BLEMAX, Jul 20 2017 - 05:10.


Morty__ #26 Posted Jul 20 2017 - 13:58

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I really wish you could promote the 5/10 template as the preferred template. There are so many positive side effects:

 - you become less reliant on the top tier tanks since a) there are 5 of them and b) all the remaining tanks are only 1 tier lower. In a 3/5/7 battle the quality of the top tier players will often dictate the outcome of the game

 - You are top tier 1/3rd of the time! 

 - Even when you are bottom tier it's no big deal since you are only 1 tier down!

 - It's way more FUN! Facing a heavy that is two tiers higher than you is just not much fun... the opposite is not much fun either since it's not much of a challenge 

 

When I started playing WoT I always felt totally useless when I was 2 tiers down. I didn't know much about weak spots and as a result I generally did zero damage to tanks 2 tiers higher. Now I better understand where on the map to go, which tanks I can engage, etc. However, beginners don't yet know this and I feel like the 3/5/7 template is a good way to make them dislike the game. 

 

That said, the changes that you have made lately have generally been very positive. Once we promote 5/10 as the preferred template (and introduce a limit of maximum 1 arty per side) it will be perfect!!!



silenthunter58 #27 Posted Jul 21 2017 - 22:18

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Something not good has happened in the latest changes to Matchmaker.  We were promised that we would see more same tier battles and less being on the bottom of the game. Since the latest update I am seeing probably 4-6 battles where my tier 8 tanks are in a tier 10 battle, one battle where I am top tier, and 2-3 battles where the top tier is tier 9. When the 3/5/7 setup first came out the battles were pretty evenly matched but that is now gone. If I change to a different tier 8 tank I get a whole new round of tier 10 battles.  It gets frustrating waiting for a same tier battle that only happens occasionally. And the makeup of the teams are kinda messed up too.  I was the top tier tank in my T43 medium tank.  The top tier tanks on the enemy team were two IS2s.  No heavy tanks on our side.  Needless to say we got wiped out.  Yesterday while in a tier 10 game, our side had an AMX 50B and a 113.  The enemy had E100 and Maus, plus other heavy duty heavy tanks that we did not have. On paper each side had two tier 10 heavies but we got wiped out pretty quick as both our heavies got overwhelmed. I am also seeing a lot more 1/15 or 2/15 wipeouts.  This seems the norm rather than the exception.  I don't care for arty but I can get along with the new rules.  I just don't like the current makeup of a lot of games. Not enough games where my tier 8 tanks are at the top of the heap. And yes, I have tier 10 tanks too.

thehugmaster #28 Posted Jul 23 2017 - 01:40

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the matchmaker is horrible for platoons. in a tier 8 platoon I have never seen anything but tier 9s and 10s.when I see tier 7 its like heaven but that never happens... so stuck with getting 2 shot and not able to pen anything with out using gold and even then its iffy.

 

so in conclusion platoons have terrible matchmaking and maybe a good idea would be make there be more top tiers, so platoons can see lower tier vehicles more often. and also in my tier 10 I was in the matchmaker for 4 minutes to get in a not full game with just tier 10s, like really 4 minutes and there where no tier 9s and 8s in the matchmaker come on.



skychan #29 Posted Jul 24 2017 - 00:35

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The return of arty to platoons is long overdue and a good step back in the right direction.

 

After all of the 3-5-7 tier battling I've decided that it really isn't that good.  I've seen more blowouts than before this 'improvement'.  I think that the intentional 3 tier spread puts too much emphasis on the players in the top 3 tanks.  The 5-10 split is much better, and should be the first pick for matchmaker not the second. 

 

Edit, this goes double for platoons which hardly ever can see the top tier.  And I think that is good because a platoon of top tanks would be even more unbalancing.  But because of this it hurts playing in platoons.

 

Also, due to the mix of tankers playing tier 8 is anoying now because almost every battle is a tier 10 fight.  This is encouraged by the 3 step system that will always be trying to take 3 tier ten's and put them with tier 8's.  As no tier 10's are ever in the 7 or 10 groups the MM is always looking for tier 8's to match with them meaning that tier 8 will see more games as bottom tier than any other tanks than tier 1.


Edited by skychan, Jul 24 2017 - 00:38.


LpBronco #30 Posted Jul 24 2017 - 01:50

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Revert the Matchmaker, add Battle tier 12 and the present exceptions for same tier battles when server populations of certain tiers reach a set point and the ability to accommodate a more balanced result would be obvious.

Tahllol #31 Posted Jul 26 2017 - 01:54

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Yep this MM is a system that works for jack crap mostly thanks to imbalanced tanks and class but its working as [edited]intended.

 


Edited by Tahllol, Jul 26 2017 - 02:00.


Catfish63 #32 Posted Jul 26 2017 - 22:35

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View Postiljuano, on Jul 14 2017 - 08:55, said:

Hello, have to told you, that new MM is totally unbalanced, when i said that, im talking about quality of players. Today i have played 20 or 25 battles, and only won 2!!!!!!!. u might think " is not ur lucky day". No Sir!!!!. the battles i lose mark scores 15: 0, 15;6. ever one of the teams are completly superior than the other!!!!. Check balance the quality of players too!!!. God save XVM

 

I echo this sentiment.  If MM would take player ratings into the equation, then more people would have fun on truly balanced teams.  Running XVM I can tell with great accuracy which team will win simply by looking at player ratings by color. This should not be the case in a well balanced game. It is in WOT's best interest to fix this issue to keep new players coming into the game and older non-professional (unicum) players involved.

Diablobo #33 Posted Jul 27 2017 - 01:53

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The new MM is horrible if you want to play a tier VIII tank. You hardly ever get to be top or middle tier, and it seems like at least 80 percent of the time when you launch in a tier VIII, you are going to be bottom tier. There are too few slots for tier X tanks, since most of the time there can be only three per team. That means that there have to be way more IXs and VIIIs to match with them. When there are too many tier VIII tanks that have to fill the MM requirements, then that means that tier VIII hardly ever gets to be anything but bottom tier. I think that there need to be more tier IX and X in each match, or go to +1/-1 MM like Blitz does. Since +1 MM would be more difficult to implement than just changing the ratios, I think that 4/4/7 would be better. Maybe even 4/5/6 would work. Having to find more bottom tier tanks than the others is just guaranteeing that tier VIII is going to be at the bottom too much. I only have one non-premium tier VIII tank that I have unlocked, and I am reluctant to grind any more if they are just going to be bottom tier most of the time. I am also not going to buy any more tier VIII premiums for sure if they hardly ever get a decent match.

I spend a lot of money on this game, and I have 15 tier VIII premiums. I would buy more, but not if the MM stays the way it is. Buying a tier VIII premium is pointless when it is going to be at the bottom almost every match. It is unethical and dishonest to sell tier VIII premiums to people if they are going to be bottom tier more often than not. It's also a huge nerf to the tier VIII tanks we have already purchased. I thought the devs didn't ever nerf premiums because people actually paid RL money for them. Well they most definitely have been nerfed with the new MM, and it is not just a little, it is a lot. We have basically been defrauded, and if I could get my money back, I would. I wonder if there is any way to challenge this bait and switch scam in court. I have nothing but free time, and I love to sue representing myself. Maybe we could even get a class action going.

the_Deadly_Bulb #34 Posted Jul 31 2017 - 09:09

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View PostDiablobo, on Jul 26 2017 - 16:53, said:

The new MM is horrible if you want to play a tier VIII tank. You hardly ever get to be top or middle tier, and it seems like at least 80 percent of the time when you launch in a tier VIII, you are going to be bottom tier. There are too few slots for tier X tanks, since most of the time there can be only three per team. That means that there have to be way more IXs and VIIIs to match with them. When there are too many tier VIII tanks that have to fill the MM requirements, then that means that tier VIII hardly ever gets to be anything but bottom tier. I think that there need to be more tier IX and X in each match, or go to +1/-1 MM like Blitz does. Since +1 MM would be more difficult to implement than just changing the ratios, I think that 4/4/7 would be better. Maybe even 4/5/6 would work. Having to find more bottom tier tanks than the others is just guaranteeing that tier VIII is going to be at the bottom too much. I only have one non-premium tier VIII tank that I have unlocked, and I am reluctant to grind any more if they are just going to be bottom tier most of the time. I am also not going to buy any more tier VIII premiums for sure if they hardly ever get a decent match.

I spend a lot of money on this game, and I have 15 tier VIII premiums. I would buy more, but not if the MM stays the way it is. Buying a tier VIII premium is pointless when it is going to be at the bottom almost every match. It is unethical and dishonest to sell tier VIII premiums to people if they are going to be bottom tier more often than not. It's also a huge nerf to the tier VIII tanks we have already purchased. I thought the devs didn't ever nerf premiums because people actually paid RL money for them. Well they most definitely have been nerfed with the new MM, and it is not just a little, it is a lot. We have basically been defrauded, and if I could get my money back, I would. I wonder if there is any way to challenge this bait and switch scam in court. I have nothing but free time, and I love to sue representing myself. Maybe we could even get a class action going.

 

You don't belong in T-VII or VIII, and you'll continue to be told this until you either 'get it' or go away. You have 15 T-VIII tanks that you've played hardly any games in, your average damage and exp indicate you don't yet fully understand the WASD keys but still, "I've spent a lot of money in this game". Maybe, so I guess now you're getting that there is no Pay to Win in spite of what you thought.

 

Its so funny you keep stating you're considering legal action. Go ahead and fill those boots big guy, because if you've played a game or even seen your garage you've agreed to the EULA and you therefore have no case.


 

File your law suit, go ahead, just make sure you post how its going. It'll be the funniest thing on the forum, They're all, going to laugh at you, especially me. See if you can get Judge Judy to explain it to you. :trollface:



nastykiller92 #35 Posted Jul 31 2017 - 16:11

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For me, the 3/5/7 MM was a bad idea from the start as it makes tier 8 got into tier 10 more than ever before and tier eight matches is normally all tier eights when you are in one as being top tier in tier 8 is like a one in fifty chance as tier 5 and 8 are the two tiers that gets hit by this harder than most because they have the biggest population playing. If I was to suggest a replacement, a 5/5/5 would be fairer as it allows there to be an even number. Also, if there is a top tier heavy, the other team should have one have one, too to have a decent change against it like if it was a VK 100.01 P on top tier, over half of the tier 6s can't pen it unless they have gold loaded and that throughs most of the tier 6 light and stock mediums or it is cresting a hill, showing its belly. As for the other matches it can continue with one thing the 3/5/7 did right in my opinion, modify the numbers if there top and middle tier tanks to set have it flow a bit more with the players per tier count aka increasing the bottom tier count if there are less high and middle tier tanks in the match.

DE_Samuel_B_Roberts #36 Posted Aug 01 2017 - 04:40

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Completely anecdotal, I haven't logged the numbers to post, but NA West seems to have unbalanced MM very often. One team gets one, even two, top tier heavies and other team gets none. Other times it's 1 arty against 2 or 1 against 0. NA Wet needs help badly.

fsjd #37 Posted Aug 01 2017 - 05:39

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this change from patch 9.19.0 should be reverted, as its the main cause of the horrific problem at tier 8.

 

Block Quote

 

We made some changes to the matchmaker to decrease the number of one- and two-tier battles in favor of the 3/5/7 system.

  • The number of one- and two-tier battles will decrease in favor of the 3/5/7 system. The change will be noticeable at high battle levels (vehicle tiers: VIII to X).
  • Most three-tier battles will be created according to the basic 3/5/7 pattern.

the 3/5/7 system isnt the main issue- i think it has some issues of its own, but the main issue is the MM brackets- the 3/5/7 match just says that if you see a + or - 2 MM bracket, it will have 3 top tier tanks, 5 mid tiers, and 7 bottom tiers, instead of, for example, 1/3/11 or 5/1/9, etc. 

 

tier 10 only has 3 MM brackets- all of them top or equal tier. 

biasing toward 3/5/7 has two effects- first, tier 8 is already weighted to see either +2  (tier 10 game) or -2 (tier 6 game) more often than +/-1 (tier 9 or tier 7) and 0 (single tier). second, since this bias aplies to tier 10, which ONLY has the -2 bracket, tier 8 is FAR more likely to see a +2 game than ANY other match. the next most common match SHOULD be -2, but there are enough tier 10s in the queue to make even that bracket a rarity. 

 

THIS. IS. NOT. FUN. this MM system is PUNISHING. 

 

I am suprised that this change made it through without being revised for tier 10- we already see special MM for tiers 1, 2, and 3, so why cant things be tweaked for tiers 9 and 10, since these tiers dont have the +2 or +1 brackets?

 

at the very least, all of the potential brackets should receive equal weight, so that a tier 8 has an equal chance of seeing tier 6, single-tier, and tier 10. 

 

as a final, related note, i think having the matches set up to ALWAYS be 3/5/7 or 5/10 is a mistake.

 

IMO this system should be loosened up to simply saying the number of lower tier tanks in a match must be no less than the number of higher tier tanks- so you dont have 1-2 tier 8s pulled into a match with 9 tier 10s for example, but still allow for, say, a 2/4/9 or 3/4/8 (which would be the worst possible match, and its better than the current version), or even a 1/1/13. the bottom tier would never be outnumbered

note that the mid tiers also have this restriction, making sure that a match can never be top-heavy but still allowing for some variation. 

as something of an obvious point, both teams would have the same tier composition.

 

I personally think the 5/10 match type has fewer issues than the 3/5/7, but could still be loosened up with the same sort of restriction as above to allow for anything between 7/8 to 1/14.

 

using the above restriction, there would be the following allowed match types within the respective MM brackets:

allowed 3-tier types, in decending order of top, then mid tier.

Spoiler

 

allowed 2-tier games

Spoiler

 


Edited by fsjd, Aug 01 2017 - 06:19.


nastykiller92 #38 Posted Aug 01 2017 - 06:15

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I agree with the last post. Tier eight, I believe, has the normally the biggest amount of players playing out of all of the tiers and when rank battles are going, tier 10 pool is half of its normal size, so less chances of a tier ten only match and still the same change of having tier eights. Tier 5 is getting the second worst MM as they are one of the top three area of players playing that tier. What it seems to be the case is WG didn't put in the calculation of normal player count per tier.

 

Myself, I normally run tier 6-8 and a few matches in my only tier 9 and 10 tanks since mid July as I noticed tier five tanks are bottom tier about half the time in three tier matches as they lost their -2, getting only -1 to +2, which is why I don't run my Pz. IV H, my only tank with two marks, or AMX ELC bis (which the last gun needs isn't reload to be back to at max ten seconds per shot and at least ten more pen, as it is really a TD in real life, to balance is as I hate bouncing on an M4's front hull in the middle from a hundred meters when I use be able to pen T29's hulls from the front from over twice that) as much because of it.

Currently the best tiers to be in are tiers 6-7 and 9, but mainly tier 7 and 9 as the tier ten count is really high to the point you can get tier ten only matches pretty often and tier 8 is too large for the system to work to fix complaints, but it seems to just add more from tier five and eight tank players.



fsjd #39 Posted Aug 01 2017 - 06:30

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View Postnastykiller92, on Aug 01 2017 - 00:15, said:

I agree with the last post. Tier eight, I believe, has the normally the biggest amount of players playing out of all of the tiers and when rank battles are going, tier 10 pool is half of its normal size, so less chances of a tier ten only match and still the same change of having tier eights. Tier 5 is getting the second worst MM as they are one of the top three area of players playing that tier. What it seems to be the case is WG didn't put in the calculation of normal player count per tier.

 

Myself, I normally run tier 6-8 and a few matches in my only tier 9 and 10 tanks since mid July as I noticed tier five tanks are bottom tier about half the time in three tier matches as they lost their -2, getting only -1 to +2, which is why I don't run my Pz. IV H, my only tank with two marks, or AMX ELC bis (which the last gun needs isn't reload to be back to at max ten seconds per shot and at least ten more pen, as it is really a TD in real life, to balance is as I hate bouncing on an M4's front hull in the middle from a hundred meters when I use be able to pen T29's hulls from the front from over twice that) as much because of it.

Currently the best tiers to be in are tiers 6-7 and 9, but mainly tier 7 and 9 as the tier ten count is really high to the point you can get tier ten only matches pretty often and tier 8 is too large for the system to work to fix complaints, but it seems to just add more from tier five and eight tank players.

 

you bring up another good point. I think increasing the range of available matches as i mentioned above has the ability to help here as well- give tier 3 back that +2 bracket, but perhaps limit things to one or two tier 5s max.

as it stands, a 3/5/7 match is rough on the tier 3s, which in many cases have issues fighting tier 4.

 

I think the reason that tier 6/7 is so good right now is because those are the only two tiers that have the full range of MM brackets, and dont have excessive pressure on any of them. 



nastykiller92 #40 Posted Aug 01 2017 - 18:03

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View Postfsjd, on Aug 01 2017 - 06:30, said:

 

you bring up another good point. I think increasing the range of available matches as i mentioned above has the ability to help here as well- give tier 3 back that +2 bracket, but perhaps limit things to one or two tier 5s max.

as it stands, a 3/5/7 match is rough on the tier 3s, which in many cases have issues fighting tier 4.

 

I think the reason that tier 6/7 is so good right now is because those are the only two tiers that have the full range of MM brackets, and dont have excessive pressure on any of them. 

 

I do have a friend that got a high caliber in a M3 Stuart before the tier 10 light tank and arty changes update in a tier 5 match.

Edited by nastykiller92, Aug 01 2017 - 18:06.






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