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lordawesome7 #61 Posted Aug 07 2017 - 14:36

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View PostAvalon304, on Aug 03 2017 - 19:30, said:

 

Shell velocity is much better, means less leading at range. And higher pen is still better, normalization really only comes into effect at high angles of incidence (which are things that should be being mitigated by player position, rather than relying on the round to do it for you). Id very much rather have APCR than AP in the majority of situations.

 

This player base is dumb. Plain and simple. Smart players wouldnt blindly accept every buff as it comes at them. They wouldnt say things like: "Oh WG doesnt seem to want to buff the right thing so I should settle for what they'll give me". Thats the kind of stuff that got us here in the first place. We should be thinking about these buffs and the effects they will have long term and telling WG they are wrong when they are wrong. And they are wrong on nearly every tank change in 9.20 and the patch after it. Off the top of my head I can think of about 3 changes that I actually agree with: The new turret for the M48 (which is separate from the armor buff), the changes to the IS-7 and the changes to the ISU. Every other change is pants on head retarded, and I dont know how they came up with them.

 

honestly; they are changing the entire meta one patch at a time

 

i would like a balance 2.0 patch similar to what AW did; but considering the scale of this game, patch by patch is more realistic

 

i can see what you're saying but the amx 30b really does play too similar to the leopard 1, the maus needed a buff to its gun handling (realistically slower = more stable gun; that bloom was awful), everything else is debatable to insane, im not going to argue the whole list

 

however i would agree on this armor changes if they fixed how dispersion/RNG works in the game; a proper rework would make it more likely to hit weakspots and more consistent dmg and pen would add to that ability further

 

 



lordawesome7 #62 Posted Aug 07 2017 - 14:42

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View PostAvalon304, on Aug 03 2017 - 06:31, said:

 

Do you know why they cant do that? Because every time they buff something (regardless of whether or not its the right buff) the majority of people go: "YAY!!! BUFFS!!!" without any consideration of what the implications of those buffs will be. And so WG sees people reacting positively rather than getting accurate feedback about what a particular tank actually needs. There were people who cheered the armor buffs for the Maus and people who cheer for the addition of the Type 4 and Type 5 derp guns for christ sake... despite the fact that those buffs singlehandedly broke those tanks. (Jesus there are people that are happy the T-54 is getting a turret armor buff and that the 140 is being buffed too). So when WG gets inaccurate feedback, I cant exactly blame them when they keep making decisions based on it.

 

this is why WG needs to improve how they handle tanks instead of sticking to X or Y (especially the E 25 and lefh "DoN'T NeRf My PREMS"; i'd much rather have balance in these tanks then have them decimate everything for balance issue X because some butthurt wallet warrior enjoys breaking the game, thats how you discouragemore people from putting money into your game)

Mikosah #63 Posted Aug 08 2017 - 02:06

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View PostAvalon304, on Aug 03 2017 - 16:12, said:

 

 

I mean... for tier 9... the L7 is actually an impressive gun... thats still not a reason to give it derp gun stats. 

 

Still... just accepting buffs is bad. Tell them their decisions are bad or dont complaining when the game keeps becoming unbalanced. WG may be willing to change other things if people tell them (see also undoing of BatChat nerfs). But if you accept these buffs, cont come crying when you keep getting penned in the turret anyway, and dont come crying when the game keeps becoming more and more unbalanced in the future.

 

As the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. In this case, the handling stats could be lifted up out of AIDS territory so that you don't have to sit still forever just to hit anything. Or if the turret was actually reliable, having to wait for the aim time wouldn't be such a nasty liability if you were well-positioned. Both are valid solutions to this problem. And neither threaten to disrupt the niches that have already been established. This is exactly why such a proposal is more praiseworthy than you give it credit for, and all the more remarkable that WG stumbled onto a sane balance change for once. Buffing the T-54 turret was insane. Buffing the M46 turret was insane. But buffing the Centurion turret actually makes a little bit of sense. WG have to be shown the difference between them.



Avalon304 #64 Posted Aug 08 2017 - 05:13

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View Postlordawesome7, on Aug 07 2017 - 06:36, said:

 

honestly; they are changing the entire meta one patch at a time

 

i would like a balance 2.0 patch similar to what AW did; but considering the scale of this game, patch by patch is more realistic

 

i can see what you're saying but the amx 30b really does play too similar to the leopard 1, the maus needed a buff to its gun handling (realistically slower = more stable gun; that bloom was awful), everything else is debatable to insane, im not going to argue the whole list

 

however i would agree on this armor changes if they fixed how dispersion/RNG works in the game; a proper rework would make it more likely to hit weakspots and more consistent dmg and pen would add to that ability further

 

 

 

Ive bolded that statement in particular because the only thing they are doing with those changes is changing the AMX30s from a better Leopard 1 to a WAY BETTER STB-1. Like... there are so many tanks in the game that its unavoidable that one tank will play like another tank... but theres a point at which the changes start driving EVERY tank to play like EVERY OTHER tank (which is where 9.20 is taking us).

 

Like... right now the Centurions and Pattons fill the same role. AMX30s and Leopards fill their role. The RU mediums and the STB 1 fill their role and the Autoloaders do autoloader things... soon though, if all these changes go the way they are going it wont matter which tank you pick, because they'll all fill every role and at that point why bother having 500+ tanks in the game?

 

View PostMikosah, on Aug 07 2017 - 18:06, said:

 

As the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. In this case, the handling stats could be lifted up out of AIDS territory so that you don't have to sit still forever just to hit anything. Or if the turret was actually reliable, having to wait for the aim time wouldn't be such a nasty liability if you were well-positioned. Both are valid solutions to this problem. And neither threaten to disrupt the niches that have already been established. This is exactly why such a proposal is more praiseworthy than you give it credit for, and all the more remarkable that WG stumbled onto a sane balance change for once. Buffing the T-54 turret was insane. Buffing the M46 turret was insane. But buffing the Centurion turret actually makes a little bit of sense. WG have to be shown the difference between them.

 

 

No there isnt. Because 330+ penetration HEAT exists. These turret arent "reliable" unless youre getting shot at by tier 7s. Thats why armor buffs dont work. They Type 5 has, statistically, AMAZING armor. Except nearly every tank it faces has 330 or 340 penetration HEAT as a premium round... which, effectively, makes its armor worth nothing to the tank, because 330 pen HEAT pretty much ignores that armor.

 

Heres a Strv 81, compared to a medium that fires 330pen HEAT (I use the Strv 81 because it has the exact same turret armor that the Mk. 1 and Mk. 7/1 are going to have):

 

https://tanks.gg/tan...=live&cl=31111a

 

and heres the current Mk. 1:

 

https://tanks.gg/tan...-pt-a&cl=31111a

 

If you have to sit still long enough to aim fully each time you poke people are just going to pump HEAT into your turret cheeks, if not on the first shot, on the 2nd 3rd and 4th shots, at which point youre trading exceedingly badly). Your 254mm of turret armor is going to be worth approximately ZERO in the current meta, because everybody already spams gold and carries more of it thanks to the Type 5 and Maus. This is why armor buffs are bad: there is a tool in the game that can be used to make it less relevant.

 

This isnt accomplishing anything for the tank, unless youre going up against players who wont ever fire premium ammo... (or allowing you to crap on tier 6s and 7s because even their premium isnt good enough to do anything). Ive played these tanks exactly as Ive described, aiming for the bare minimum of time every time I poke and pulling back before the armor is ever an issue and Ive done very well. The guns do have trash handling, but they are certainly capable of exactly the playstyle they need to be, without getting insane armor buffs.

 

(Also that you dont think the M48 turret buff was insane is hilarious considering its already one of the best tier 10 mediums for pub matches).

 

 



indoctrinated #65 Posted Aug 08 2017 - 15:37

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View PostMikosah, on Aug 08 2017 - 02:06, said:

 

As the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. In this case, the handling stats could be lifted up out of AIDS territory so that you don't have to sit still forever just to hit anything. Or if the turret was actually reliable, having to wait for the aim time wouldn't be such a nasty liability if you were well-positioned. Both are valid solutions to this problem. And neither threaten to disrupt the niches that have already been established. This is exactly why such a proposal is more praiseworthy than you give it credit for, and all the more remarkable that WG stumbled onto a sane balance change for once. Buffing the T-54 turret was insane. Buffing the M46 turret was insane. But buffing the Centurion turret actually makes a little bit of sense. WG have to be shown the difference between them.

I find it bizarre that WG went to great lengths to ensure accurate modelling of tanks, along with historical armor thicknesses only to very recently throw that out the window. I don't get why are they so reluctant to give the Centurion family decent weapons handling as neither the Centurion 1 or 7/1 have exceptional weapons for their tier. The 7/1 is a particular offender, having comparable (or even worse) weapons handling than Japanese Super-Heavy tanks with their derp guns. Earlier I compared the 7/1 to the Type 61 and that has considerably better handling, drops some armor of questionable value over the 7/1 and only has a slightly worse standard round.

View PostAvalon304, on Aug 08 2017 - 05:13, said:

 

No there isnt. Because 330+ penetration HEAT exists. These turret arent "reliable" unless youre getting shot at by tier 7s. Thats why armor buffs dont work. They Type 5 has, statistically, AMAZING armor. Except nearly every tank it faces has 330 or 340 penetration HEAT as a premium round... which, effectively, makes its armor worth nothing to the tank, because 330 pen HEAT pretty much ignores that armor.

 

Sure, the Type 5 Heavy will perform poorly against gold ammo if its caught out in the open but all tanks will suffer the same fate. A player making smart use of the terrain (Japanese Heavies have good gun depression) and cover can easily keep out the bulk of the HEAT/APCR thrown at you (except for Tier X TD gold ammo, you'll only really bounce that on extreme angles or if they hit autobounce sections of the tank). My Type 5 Heavy blocks over 2,500 damage per game.



Mikosah #66 Posted Aug 08 2017 - 19:45

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View PostAvalon304, on Aug 07 2017 - 22:13, said:

This isnt accomplishing anything for the tank, unless youre going up against players who wont ever fire premium ammo... (or allowing you to crap on tier 6s and 7s because even their premium isnt good enough to do anything). Ive played these tanks exactly as Ive described, aiming for the bare minimum of time every time I poke and pulling back before the armor is ever an issue and Ive done very well. The guns do have trash handling, but they are certainly capable of exactly the playstyle they need to be, without getting insane armor buffs.

 

(Also that you dont think the M48 turret buff was insane is hilarious considering its already one of the best tier 10 mediums for pub matches).

 

You're vastly underestimating just how many cheapskates are out there. Especially at the high tiers where tanks are expensive to run even without code 22 spam. And when those high tier HEAT shells are being used, the mantlet will catch a few, as will the outer edges of the cheeks, and the sloped 'forehead' plate when the enemy is slightly below you. The buffed turrets won't be invincible, but the protection won't be irrelevant either. 

 

As for the M48, that's a topic unto itself. The buff isn't as dramatic in its implications compared to most of the other tanks. Honestly seems like a non-issue thus far.



Avalon304 #67 Posted Aug 08 2017 - 23:04

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View Postindoctrinated, on Aug 08 2017 - 07:37, said:

Sure, the Type 5 Heavy will perform poorly against gold ammo if its caught out in the open but all tanks will suffer the same fate. A player making smart use of the terrain (Japanese Heavies have good gun depression) and cover can easily keep out the bulk of the HEAT/APCR thrown at you (except for Tier X TD gold ammo, you'll only really bounce that on extreme angles or if they hit autobounce sections of the tank). My Type 5 Heavy blocks over 2,500 damage per game.

 

I mean... even 330 HEAT from a Leo PTA will butter the turret front of a Type 5 and you cant exactly angle the tank, because then you expose the shoulders and you cant angle the turret because its not flat. Yes... it can block 2.5k... but at tier 10 thats... not really a lot.

 

View PostMikosah, on Aug 08 2017 - 11:45, said:

 

You're vastly underestimating just how many cheapskates are out there. Especially at the high tiers where tanks are expensive to run even without code 22 spam. And when those high tier HEAT shells are being used, the mantlet will catch a few, as will the outer edges of the cheeks, and the sloped 'forehead' plate when the enemy is slightly below you. The buffed turrets won't be invincible, but the protection won't be irrelevant either. 

 

As for the M48, that's a topic unto itself. The buff isn't as dramatic in its implications compared to most of the other tanks. Honestly seems like a non-issue thus far.

 

I am very much not... given the amount of gold flung at me in my UNARMORED tanks. I think you are vastly under estimating just how much gold is actually being shot right now.

 

This protection will be irrelevant, because at the ranges in question, the Centurion's cheeks are huge compared to the rest of the turret and the turret profile itself is rather large to begin with. (And you'll probably still pen the mantlet too, because theres an armor hole behind it, not another plate).

 

As for the M48 if you think that buff is less dramatic in its implications then you are blind, because that tank is already AMAZING. It has a gun that you can snap shot for days and reliably hit targets... and now its getting a huge buff to its turret, which is does not need.



ToothDecay #68 Posted Aug 08 2017 - 23:34

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View PostCabbageMechanic, on Jul 25 2017 - 12:28, said:

Hey Tankers,


Here's the most recent Supertest changes for the latter end of the Brit Medium line and the FV4202:

 

 

That's a nice buff.  Might be able to work ridges now.

WHERE IS THE Chieftain MBT ???

Tired of having the POS fv215b in my garage waiting for the "swap".



Mikosah #69 Posted Aug 09 2017 - 00:24

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View PostAvalon304, on Aug 08 2017 - 16:04, said:

As for the M48 if you think that buff is less dramatic in its implications then you are blind, because that tank is already AMAZING. It has a gun that you can snap shot for days and reliably hit targets... and now its getting a huge buff to its turret, which is does not need.

 

Amazing? Seems a bit generous. Not that the M48 is bad at the support role, but that the support role itself isn't particularly relevant in the meta. As for the turret buff, the most noticeable thing it does is intrude into the AX's niche, which is a major reason for most of the previous commotion. The takeaway here is that if the Pattons' buffs make it to the live server, the Centurions' situation goes from 'bad' to 'obsolete' unless they're buffed too.



Avalon304 #70 Posted Aug 09 2017 - 23:26

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View PostMikosah, on Aug 08 2017 - 16:24, said:

 

Amazing? Seems a bit generous. Not that the M48 is bad at the support role, but that the support role itself isn't particularly relevant in the meta. As for the turret buff, the most noticeable thing it does is intrude into the AX's niche, which is a major reason for most of the previous commotion. The takeaway here is that if the Pattons' buffs make it to the live server, the Centurions' situation goes from 'bad' to 'obsolete' unless they're buffed too.

 

Yes. Amazing. Have you played it? (No you havent, other wise you would see just how unneeded the buff is). The gun is a LASER. Its the best medium in the game for random pub stomping. You can snapshot for days and expect to hit more often than not AND is has great DPM. The only thing keeping it balanced was that you couldnt just sit on a ridge and face tank shots with it because the armor wasnt that good and you had a huge cupola to manage. Which is now changing next patch because the cupola is going away and the armor is getting buffed. (I expect the Pattons will become OP next patch and will soon be nerfed). 

 

And again, youre wrong. With the Pattons changing the Centurion's situation doesnt change at all. They will still be average tanks, that do averagely. They dont become obsolete. The CAX was already worse than the M48, but that didnt make the CAX obsolete. The 7/1 is already worse than the M46 but that didnt make it obsolete. Same for the Mk. 1 compared to the Pershing. They arent bad tanks now. They wouldnt be obsolete tanks next patch, despite how much you seem to think they would be. (BTW... if these changes do go through... the Pattons will still be outright better than the Centurions in which case we're right back to where we are now on live which will have fixed nothing. If nothing changes between the Pattons and Centurions then the changes were the incorrect changes). Meanwhile with gun handling the Centurions become equal to the Pattons, able to reliably put out damage from support positions and do so with (comparatively) smaller profiles and better dynamics.



Mikosah #71 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 00:17

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If the Pattons really are that accurate, then the Centurions' niche has already been invaded. And if the Patton buff goes live, then the discrepancy between the two will only grow. There couldn't be a more textbook case of a tank being obsolete.

Avalon304 #72 Posted Aug 12 2017 - 10:53

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View PostMikosah, on Aug 11 2017 - 16:17, said:

If the Pattons really are that accurate, then the Centurions' niche has already been invaded. And if the Patton buff goes live, then the discrepancy between the two will only grow. There couldn't be a more textbook case of a tank being obsolete.

 

"Obsolete". You use that word and I dont think you understand the meaning.

 

None of the Centurions are obsolete. The fact that you think they are, at all, shows you are out of touch with this game, and with tanks that you say you like.

 

The Pattons have gun handling and DPM, but the M48 has a huge turret to manage, and the M46 has low standard penetration for its tier and class, with an unarmored turret. These were the balancing factors of the tanks, their armor was key to it. The buffing of their armor is going to render them OP. The Centurions have the Penetration advantage up to tier 9, and then get the mobility advantage in tier 10 (which they match at 8 and 9). You are speaking of things you do not understand. (Both the Pattons and the Centurions). Meanwhile the Centurions have lost  out on the two things they have needed most: Gun handling and DPM. Thats what they need. They are competitive now, and will remain so in 9.20, but what they need and have needed for a while is DPM and gun handling.

 

Tanks dont become "obsolete" in this game. Thats not how it works. Changes in meta render tanks more or less useful, but never obsolete. The support role that the Centurions inhabit is ALWAYS useful, because it has the benefit of always being needed in a team composition. The fact you cant see this (or choose not to) is sad.



Mikosah #73 Posted Aug 13 2017 - 03:12

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View PostAvalon304, on Aug 12 2017 - 03:53, said:

Tanks dont become "obsolete" in this game. Thats not how it works. Changes in meta render tanks more or less useful, but never obsolete. The support role that the Centurions inhabit is ALWAYS useful, because it has the benefit of always being needed in a team composition. The fact you cant see this (or choose not to) is sad.

 

If this is going to be an issue of semantics, then so be it. The Centurions are less useful than they could be. Have you seen the global stats in VBaddict? Let alone the nonexistent amount of playtime they get in competitive modes. Let's face facts here, these tanks are not performing well. 

 

As of the support role's necessity, the trick is that there'll always be bottom tier tanks in each match that are press-ganged into the support role. And there'll always be players that aren't bottom tier and still play so passively that they might as well be support too. There never has been and never will be a shortage of guns on the second line.



Avalon304 #74 Posted Aug 14 2017 - 00:07

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View PostMikosah, on Aug 12 2017 - 19:12, said:

 

If this is going to be an issue of semantics, then so be it. The Centurions are less useful than they could be. Have you seen the global stats in VBaddict? Let alone the nonexistent amount of playtime they get in competitive modes. Let's face facts here, these tanks are not performing well. 

 

As of the support role's necessity, the trick is that there'll always be bottom tier tanks in each match that are press-ganged into the support role. And there'll always be players that aren't bottom tier and still play so passively that they might as well be support too. There never has been and never will be a shortage of guns on the second line.

 

Not every tank needs to be equal. Not every tank needs to be used competitively. The fact that you seem to think they do is silly. Its ok for tanks to be not as good as others. Thats part of having a DIVERSE game balance. If every tank is equal, then you only need 1 tank. As far as the VBAddict stats, I dont hold any value in them because VBAddict is an opt in system used, primarily, by better players who often play more aggressively than a Centurion allows. Using VBAddict stats to support ANY argument about any tank in this game is stupid. Stop doing it.

 

Meanwhile if we talk about performance... the Centurion is 8th of 13 tier 9 mediums, with an average 49.1% win rate for the past two weeks. Thats average for the server. More over if you check the tanks win rate curve, you can see its performing just fine.

 

Yes, theres ALWAYS bottom tier tanks, but not all bottom tiers are immediately relegated to the support role. That what bad players think. Passive players arent playing a "support" role. While it can look similar, it uses a very different set of critical thinking skills. And its not just the second line. Its the third line and the 4th line too. Theres more subtlety to this then youre giving it. 



killertank_962 #75 Posted Aug 18 2017 - 10:48

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View PostToothDecay, on Aug 09 2017 - 10:34, said:

 

That's a nice buff.  Might be able to work ridges now.

WHERE IS THE Chieftain MBT ???

Tired of having the POS fv215b in my garage waiting for the "swap".

 

I feel yah man, mines collecting dust.





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