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The Great MM Debate: 3/5/7 Trash or Triumph?

MM 3/5/7 match maker matchmaker

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Liberty75 #1 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:10

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Notice: In full disclosure, I am biased against the new system, but I will endeavor to keep this first post position neutral.


 

The Great MM Debate: 3/5/7 Trash or Triumph?

 

The new Match Maker (MM) instituted in Update 9.18 has satisfied some players and frustrated others. There are many independent debates going on in the forums currently about this change and many spectators are only getting snippets here and there. It would be best to centralize the main points of the debate in one location. Below I will faithfully attempt to list the arguments presented on both sides if they can be clearly debated with reason, logic, and/or the limited information that we have available. "Expert sources," may be introduced for their opinions on topics to show a general support for or against the new MM.

 

The discussion will proceed in stages. First we will look at the problems of the old MM that prompted the change and some of the positives of the old system; then we will move on to the benefits and problems of the new MM; and finally, if needed, we will put forth realistic solutions to fix the MM system. The discussion will mainly center around gameplay in tier 5-8 tanks, but the lower and higher tiers can (and I am sure will be) included as evidence. Why are tiers 5 to 8 the main focus? The reason is that driving tanks in tiers 5-8 is where a bulk of the grinding occurs and this is also the range where most of the premium tanks are played. Tier 9 is obviously also a big grinding tier, but because of its proximity to tier 10, it has special circumstances that the other tiers do not. Tier 5 is included because, even though it cannot see tier 3s anymore, it still suffers from many of the same problems and perhaps even more so since the tier 3 tanks have been taken out of the pool of vehicles that tier 5 can see when the MM forms teams.

 

Everyone is obviously welcome to contribute to the thread, I just ask that contributors remain focused on the current segment of the discussion and to be civil to each other. I also ask that contributors keep a thick skin and do their best to check their egos as we investigate this issue.

 

Note: Random opinions are not helpful. Please focus on the main points of the current discussion. All other comments will be ignored unless they become relevant later in the debate.

 


CURRENT STATUS OF THE DISCUSSION:

The overall discussion on the below topics has ended. This thread is now open for general comments and questions on the MM.

 


RESOLVED TOPICS:

 

I. PROBLEMS and BENEFITS of the old pre-9.18 Match Maker:

A. Problems of the old pre-9.18 MM: (Discussion begins here)

1. The old MM would create teams that were not even in top or middle tier tanks. Some teams would have more top or middle tier tanks than the other team. (Balance Issue)

2. The old MM would not balance tank types very well between teams. For example, the old MM would give one team many TDs against the other team with many mediums. (Balance Issue)

3. The old MM would create teams with great disparities in HP. for example, there may have been up to a 10% difference in the health pools between the teams. (Balance Issue)

4. The old MM would create extreme matches such as 9/5/1 or 10/3/2, and although rare, they still occurred. (Game Enjoyment Issue)

5. In the old MM, bottom tier players would have difficulty adjusting their gameplay to being a bottom tier and their guns had difficulty penetrating top tier vehicles. (Game Enjoyment Issue)

6. About 1/10 of a player's bottom tier matches (about 2.5% of all their total matches) saw them in a group of 3 or less bottom tier tanks. (Game Enjoyment Issue)

 

B. BENEFITS of the old pre-9.18 MM: (Discussion begins here)

1. The old MM gave a good spread or balance of top, middle, and bottom tier games, about 35%, 35%, and 30% respectively.

2. The old MM was random with more variation so team make-ups would be more dynamic (for example, 4/6/5, 2/7/6, etc.) and that added a rich variety to the game.

3. The old MM created teams quickly.

4. The old MM worked well with preferential Match Making premium tanks.

 


II. BENEFITS and PROBLEMS of the new MM introduced in Update 9.18:

A. Benefits: (Discussion begins here)

1. The new MM balances tank classes on each team within a +1/-1 framework, when possible.

2. The new MM puts an equal amount of tanks per tier on both teams.

3. The new MM attempts to give bottom tier tanks an opportunity to contribute to the battle by including a template system that forces a minimum of 7 bottom tier tanks in three tiered matches (generally 3/5/7); 10 bottom tier tanks in 2 tiered matches (generally 5/10/0); and matches of all the same tier.

4. The new MM has a mechanic that tries to create more map variety by decreasing a player's chance of playing on the same maps within a gaming session.

5. The new MM has a same-tier format that has added a new dimension to the MM system.

 

B. Problems: (Discussion begins here)

1. The new MM system creates too many bottom tier matches. Players are bottom tier about 55-60% of the time: 3/5/7 is about 45% and 5/10 is about 12%. (Game enjoyment Issue)

2. In the new MM, players rarely see top tier matches: 3/5/7 gives about 5% and 5/10 is about 3%. (Game enjoyment Issue)

3. The new MM seems to punish tiers 6 and 8 the worst with bottom tier matches and this is where the bulk of the best premium tanks are located. (Game enjoyment Issue)

4. The new MM is unfair to players in platoons by making them bottom tier much more often and top tier less often than the rest of the player base. (Game enjoyment Issue)

5. A side-effect of the new MM is that is has essentially nerfed preferential matchmaking premium tanks making them a less viable credit grinding option for players. (Game enjoyment Issue)

6. The new MM creates teams that are unbalanced in regards to tank abilities and hit points. (Balance Issue)

7. The new MM template system has taken some "flavor" out of the game and it encourages a more repetitive and dull nature to the game. (Game enjoyment Issue)

8. The three top tier tanks in the 3/5/7 system have a greater influence on the outcome of a match than in the previous MM system. (Balance Issue)

9. With the large increase in bottom tier matches and the even larger decrease in top tier matches players have lost some control over their ability to influence the outcome of their matches. (Game enjoyment Issue)

10. Players are seeing a pattern and speculating that the new MM was designed to make you pay more real money for the game and it has nothing to do with helping players.

 


III. SOLUTION: (Discussion begins here)

 

Revert back to a random matchmaker, such as existed before the 9.18 Update (+2/-2), that includes vehicles from a 3 tier group of tanks (example: tiers 5, 6, and 7 would be gathered together for a battle) and uses some sort of weight or identifier system to place tanks evenly on teams, with a few extra restrictions on the MM for lower tiers.

 

Included in this system would be mechanisms to ensure that:

  1. teams would have the same amount of tanks per tier of top, middle, and bottom;
  2. teams will have similar amounts of tank types per each tier with a +1/-1 differential, and a +1/-1 differential per team overall. This means the same amount of TDs, Mediums, etc., with one difference allowed;
  3. platoons will be placed as close to the same tier level as possible when teams are created or the inferior team will get two (2) lower tier level platoons to counter a top tier platoon on the enemy team;
  4. tanks of similar attributes will be identified with each other in the weight/identifier database and placed evenly on both teams at the same tier level (for example, the Bat.-Châtillon 25t and the TVP T 50/51 will both be identified as a medium AND an autoloader so each team has them placed evenly);
  5. the MM will attempt to create all Tier I tank battles first, and only have up to six (6) Tier II tanks per match if it cannot create an all the same tier battle for them;
  6. Tier II and Tier III tanks have +1/-1 matchmaking;
  7. an option in the Settings panel above Grand Battles will allow players to have the MM try to create all same tier matches for them at any tier.
  8. some of the above rules will be relaxed when server populations are low to cut down on wait times.

 

Since the previous MM was a random system that included some of the currently proposed options, it is realistic to believe that this is in the realm of possibility to be developed by WG. This system takes the rich variety and balance in top, middle, and bottom tier matches and combines them with the balancing factors introduced in the current MM. Some of the general balancing factors are that teams would be created with the same amount of tanks per tier and tank types would be similar on each team. The +1/-1 differential in tank types is for a greater variety of situations in our matches that some players enjoy and also to help maintain a speedy match creation while at the same time making sure that teams are pretty evenly laid out against each other. Platoons would also be distributed as evenly as possible or a team will be compensated to ward off advantages a top tier platoon may have over a bottom tier platoon.

 

The weight or tank database identifier system (for lack of better terms) would be a three (3) level system. Tanks would be identified:

  • First by TIER,
  • Second by CLASS, and
  • Third by CHARACTERISTICS within its class.

 

Tanks would be pulled for matches based on these identifiers in the order listed above. It could even be tailored to have tanks of different classes (heavy, medium, etc), but similar characteristics (autoloader), distributed as evenly as possible as a secondary feature. For example, the AMX 50 B and the TVP T 50/51 are both autoloaders and could be used to fill that +1/-1 differential in class if available to keep the teams as close as possible.

 

Overall, here is an example of how a match may look:

 

GREEN TEAM                                             RED TEAM

Maus                                                            Type 5 Heavy

AMX 50B                                                       T57 Heavy

Obj. 62a       (Platoon 1)                               Obj. 140

B-C 25t         (Platoon 1)                               TVP 50/51

Skoda 50t                                                      AMX 50 120      

Tortoise                                                         T95

AMX 30                                                          E 50          (Platoon 1)

WZ-120                                                         T-54           (Platoon 1)

T49                                                                Ru 251

IS-3                                                                IS-3           (Platoon 2)

T34                                                               Tiger II        (Platoon 2)

Jagdpanther II                                               SU-101

Pershing                                                       T28 Prot.    (Platoon 2)

T-44-100                                                       STA-2

WZ-132                                                         LTTB

 

This system gives players most of what they want in team balance while at the same time it still provides a high degree of variety and interest from battle to battle.

 

NOTE: This solution was created with the input of many players and no one player can truly take ownership of this solution.


Edited by Liberty75, Sep 22 2017 - 04:26.


Liberty75 #2 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:11

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The first segment of the discussion will focus on what was the problem(s) that needed to be fixed in the old MM that warranted this massive change? Let's see if we can agree upon that and we will try our best to use reason, logic, and information where available. The bulk of focus will be on tiers 5-8 since those tiers were the most adversely affected by the changes in the new MM.

 

It was my understanding that the old MM was generally accepted to be broken in a few main areas that essentially centered around team balance mostly, but other issues as well:

I. Team Balance Issues

A. The old MM would create teams that were not even in top or middle tier tanks. In other words, one team would have 4 top tier tanks and the other team would have 5.

B. The old MM would not balance tank types very well between teams, leaving one team with many TDs against the other team with many mediums, as an example.

C. The old MM would create teams with great disparities in HP (ex. 10% difference).

II. Other Issues

A. The old MM would create extreme matches such as 9/5/1 or 10/3/2. Although rare, they still occurred.

Here is also some information on why WG changed the MM in 9.18 and the patch notes to go along with it.

 

Video on the 9.18 Update:

Spoiler

 

Update Notes 1 for 9.18:

Spoiler

 

Update Notes 2 for 9.18:

Spoiler

 

And a more in depth reading of the new MM here:

https://worldoftanks.com/en/news/general-news/update-918-common-test/#matchmaker


Edited by Liberty75, Aug 04 2017 - 21:39.


Fulcrous_really_heckin #3 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:14

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3/5/7 is fine. It is significantly easier to carry now.

T8 may be questionable to some, but I honestly find it no worse to carry in bottom tier at t8 compared to before. In fact, I would consider it easier barring super heavy lottery comps.



Cutthroatlemur #4 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:18

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The new MM may not be perfect, but it's better than it has ever been previously.  It is much more consistent.  Anyone complaining was not playing back when a 4 tier spread was common.

Brick94 #5 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:22

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The same issue with the old and new MM is tank balance per tier.  WG is so stupid with that, MM has always been screwed that way because WG couldn't program 1+1=2.

Gorstman #6 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:27

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Just played 3 games in a row,where the opposing team was 3/4 full of players with 6th sense ,and my team had no players.. Zero. We got  rolled  in all 3 battles.Thats an Aslans Mod. That just shows if a player has 6th sense. How can MM be fixed or better or adjusted if It is putting players with much better crews  all on one side? Or at least that  perk. Logic would dictate  That  teams  should be at least 50/50 as far as that goes. Happened a number of times yesterday too. It seems almost more Rigged than before.

VooDooKobra #7 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:30

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i agree tank balance per tier is still an issue but Liberty you are missing one of the biggest complaints people had about the old MM.  it was that when you were bottom tier your options in the game were very limited other than scouting or being support to the top tier tanks.  other than that there were still those complaining about being bottom tier more than top tier even in the last MM. 

 

ranking superheavies, mediums and heavies separately instead of one lump.  that would help with a lot of the problems still happening 


Edited by VooDooKobra, Aug 04 2017 - 03:32.


bigbear72us #8 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:32

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If they would just balance the classes, 3/5/7 would be fine.

VooDooKobra #9 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:36

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View PostGorstman, on Aug 03 2017 - 19:27, said:

Just played 3 games in a row,where the opposing team was 3/4 full of players with 6th sense ,and my team had no players.. Zero. We got  rolled  in all 3 battles.Thats an Aslans Mod. That just shows if a player has 6th sense. How can MM be fixed or better or adjusted if It is putting players with much better crews  all on one side? Or at least that  perk. Logic would dictate  That  teams  should be at least 50/50 as far as that goes. Happened a number of times yesterday too. It seems almost more Rigged than before.

 

but how balanced does the game need to be before it gets silly?  balance equipment on tanks ?  crew skills?  i dont mind a little chaos in the MM if you balance the game too much it just becomes going through the motions. 

Cutthroatlemur #10 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:39

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View PostGorstman, on Aug 03 2017 - 18:27, said:

Just played 3 games in a row,where the opposing team was 3/4 full of players with 6th sense ,and my team had no players.. Zero. We got  rolled  in all 3 battles.Thats an Aslans Mod. That just shows if a player has 6th sense. How can MM be fixed or better or adjusted if It is putting players with much better crews  all on one side? Or at least that  perk. Logic would dictate  That  teams  should be at least 50/50 as far as that goes. Happened a number of times yesterday too. It seems almost more Rigged than before.

 

that mod is BS...mods that tell you about another player's skills, be it Sixth Sense, reload, or XVM (stats) should be banned in game.

Kerosedge #11 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 03:54

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Needs to be way reworked for perf premiums. Don't care running around in a STA-2 shooting at T54s and leopards.
Have serious issues rinning around in KV5/IS6/SP trying to handle STI/E75s with the jacked MM making most battles mid/bottom tier.
Not fast enough to handle T8/9 meds. Guns/armor are less than a joke against T9 heavys.

LeaveIT2Beaver #12 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 04:24

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Politics is forbidden in the forums.  Oh wait .... 'triumph'.... 

 

 

never mind



Hurk #13 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 04:25

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its much better than the old, but still needs tweaks. 

CedricMacLaren #14 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 04:26

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That mod only tells you about people who use XVM and have chosen in XVM to share that information. If I understand correctly, unless you see a crossed out light bulb, you really don't know if they have 6th Sense or not.

 

As for the 3/5/7 MM,  much better than the old MM. 



Liberty75 #15 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 04:30

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 03 2017 - 21:30, said:

[Edited for essential content. Numbering and lettering inserted by me. -Liberty75] ...

[1.] one of the biggest complaints people had about the old MM.  it was that when you were bottom tier your options in the game were very limited other than scouting or being support to the top tier tanks.

[2.] other than that there were still those complaining about being bottom tier more than top tier even in the last MM.

 

1. Great comment to start us off and I will add it to the list if it can be supported. Let's break it down.

 

    You are basically saying that options for bottom tier tanks were very limited in the pre-9.18 MM. Please answer the following questions so we can better understand your point.

    Q. Under what circumstances were a players options limited? Was it for all bottom tier battles or only some bottom tier battles? If it is only some of the battles, can you please give us the criteria for these battles.

 

 

2. People have emotional responses to short term streaks that are difficult for them and will complain at the drop of a hat. It is highly improbably that they were in reality bottom tier more than about 50% of the time for an extended period of matches. So while these complaints most certainly did occur, they will not help us to understand the reasoning behind the change or the benefits/detriments the new system brings with it. While noted, this will be disregarded for our discussion.


Edited by Liberty75, Aug 04 2017 - 04:36.


NeatoMan #16 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 04:36

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I'm OK with it. 

 

Then again,  I never get so heavily invested in any aspect of a game that I can't adjust to major changes.   Two of my best performing tanks in the past got nerfed/meta'd into the ground...  The Panther 2 got killed after the switch from +/-3 tier to +/-2 tier MM, and the VK2801 got majorly crapped on twice.   My all time best performing tank, the Luchs (62% solo pub win rate), is so ridiculously OP in the new MM at tier 4.  It's too much seal clubbing for me, so I no longer play it.   meh, I play different tanks now.  Nothing I've spent money on am I so attached to that I can't give it up.  At least I got my money's worth out of it.



Nunya_000 #17 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 05:17

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For me it comes down to having every battle where a player can feel that they can contribute.

 

I mainly play tier 8.  I never shied away from taking on a couple of tier 10 tanks in my tier 8.  While I am just an average player, I feel I can play well enough to be fairly competitive against them.  If I died fighting those 1 or 2 tier 10 tanks, it was usually because of something I did wrong and not necessarily because of some great play on their part.  However, taking on 4-5 tier 10 tanks is a much different story.  Not only do you have to fight against those 1 or 2 tier 10s on the front line, but you also have 1 or 2 tier 10 TDs in the back and a couple of tier 10 MTs...or even another 1 or 2 tier 10 HTs ...you need to contend with.  Now I know I can rely on my armor to some extent to bounce a tier 8...and maybe even some tier 9, but too many tier 10s will quickly tear me apart on even the smallest mistake.

 

I normally do not fire premium rounds, unless I need to take a tank out quickly or the red tank was positioned in a way to make penetration very difficult.  While I have no problem with other players firing premium rounds, I like to show a profit at the end of a battle and firing premium rounds often drain that profit....even sometime playing a tier 8 premium tank.  If there are too many tier 10s I am fighting against in a battle, I can almost guarantee that there will be a time I will feel the need to resort to firing premium rounds.

 

3 tier 10s in a battle against my tier 8 does not bother me.  I can avoid them early in the battle if necessary and I have plenty of other targets in my weight class to fire on (4/5 of the red team).  5-6 tier 10s does bother me and makes me feel like I am the designated target vehicle for the battle. It makes me feel like I am wasting my time.  Since I do not Yolo (on purpose anyway) or suicide, I'm pretty much stuck in the battle fighting against a red team with at least 1/3 of the team (or more) being in tier 10 tanks. 

 

Bottom line, 3 tier 10s does not scare me.  If giving up some (or most ) battles where I am top tier so that there is only 3 tier 10s....and I see more 5/10 and 15 battles, so be it.  I feel it is a great trade off.  I do not need to fight tier 6 and tier 7 tanks on a regular basis, as tier 8 tanks die just as well.  Since the new MM was introduced, I am even finding I am even firing less premium rounds, as I am finding myself in a position less where I feel a need to.  

 

EVERY battle I see now, I feel I have a fighting chance to do well.  No more battles where I feel I am wasting my time.  This is important to me, as I am finding it difficult to get battles in some days.  No more sitting down with only time to get in 3 battles and 2 or all 3 of them pitting me against 5-7 tier 10s.  You, Liberty75, say that the battles are boring with the new MM.  I disagree, I find them much more exciting as it is now my own performance that dictates my fate in battles and it is not decided mainly because I was greatly out tiered....and I have that feeling EVERY SINGLE BATTLE.

 

 



Liberty75 #18 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 05:59

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View PostNunya_000, on Aug 03 2017 - 23:17, said:

For me it comes down to having every battle where a player can feel that they can contribute.

 

I mainly play tier 8.  I never shied away from taking on a couple of tier 10 tanks in my tier 8.  While I am just an average player, I feel I can play well enough to be fairly competitive against them.  If I died fighting those 1 or 2 tier 10 tanks, it was usually because of something I did wrong and not necessarily because of some great play on their part.  However, taking on 4-5 tier 10 tanks is a much different story.  Not only do you have to fight against those 1 or 2 tier 10s on the front line, but you also have 1 or 2 tier 10 TDs in the back and a couple of tier 10 MTs...or even another 1 or 2 tier 10 HTs ...you need to contend with.  Now I know I can rely on my armor to some extent to bounce a tier 8...and maybe even some tier 9, but too many tier 10s will quickly tear me apart on even the smallest mistake.

 

I normally do not fire premium rounds, unless I need to take a tank out quickly or the red tank was positioned in a way to make penetration very difficult.  While I have no problem with other players firing premium rounds, I like to show a profit at the end of a battle and firing premium rounds often drain that profit....even sometime playing a tier 8 premium tank.  If there are too many tier 10s I am fighting against in a battle, I can almost guarantee that there will be a time I will feel the need to resort to firing premium rounds.

 

3 tier 10s in a battle against my tier 8 does not bother me.  I can avoid them early in the battle if necessary and I have plenty of other targets in my weight class to fire on (4/5 of the red team).  5-6 tier 10s does bother me and makes me feel like I am the designated target vehicle for the battle. It makes me feel like I am wasting my time.  Since I do not Yolo (on purpose anyway) or suicide, I'm pretty much stuck in the battle fighting against a red team with at least 1/3 of the team (or more) being in tier 10 tanks. 

 

Bottom line, 3 tier 10s does not scare me.  If giving up some (or most ) battles where I am top tier so that there is only 3 tier 10s....and I see more 5/10 and 15 battles, so be it.  I feel it is a great trade off.  I do not need to fight tier 6 and tier 7 tanks on a regular basis, as tier 8 tanks die just as well.  Since the new MM was introduced, I am even finding I am even firing less premium rounds, as I am finding myself in a position less where I feel a need to.  

 

EVERY battle I see now, I feel I have a fighting chance to do well.  No more battles where I feel I am wasting my time.  This is important to me, as I am finding it difficult to get battles in some days.  No more sitting down with only time to get in 3 battles and 2 or all 3 of them pitting me against 5-7 tier 10s.  You, Liberty75, say that the battles are boring with the new MM.  I disagree, I find them much more exciting as it is now my own performance that dictates my fate in battles and it is not decided mainly because I was greatly out tiered....and I have that feeling EVERY SINGLE BATTLE.

 

 

 

Just to be sure, your essential point is this:

The pre-9.18 MM created random games and as a bottom tier tank a portion of those games would include 5 or more top tier tanks making matches unfairly difficult and frustrating.

 

Would you say that that sentence is an accurate representation of your thoughts on the pre-9.18 MM?



Kennel_Dog #19 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 06:27

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View PostGorstman, on Aug 03 2017 - 21:27, said:

Just played 3 games in a row,where the opposing team was 3/4 full of players with 6th sense ,and my team had no players.. Zero. We got  rolled  in all 3 battles.Thats an Aslans Mod. That just shows if a player has 6th sense. How can MM be fixed or better or adjusted if It is putting players with much better crews  all on one side? Or at least that  perk. Logic would dictate  That  teams  should be at least 50/50 as far as that goes. Happened a number of times yesterday too. It seems almost more Rigged than before.

 

Hold on! You're complaining about players having skills on their crews........whatintheholy[edited]!!

Someone putting in the time to develop a crew is "unfair". You sound like the usual special snowflake that want this game watered down to corridors and bland tanks because it's too hard. 

Btw, that mod sounds a lot more of an "unfair" (read, cheat) advantage that any amount players with "6th Sense users". 



Diablobo #20 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 06:42

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Complaining about the vast number of higher tier tanks in battles pre 9.18 does not mean the new MM is better. The overwhelming low tier games were rare, and the regular bottom tier games were way more than balanced by plenty of top tier games. Better bottom tier games in no way justifies the complete disappearance of tiers VI and VII. 





Also tagged with MM, 3/5/7, match maker, matchmaker

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