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The Great MM Debate: 3/5/7 Trash or Triumph?

MM 3/5/7 match maker matchmaker

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lionheart1118 #81 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 23:13

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View Postfsjd, on Aug 04 2017 - 20:35, said:

see here for my suggestions on the issues. 

 

in a nutshell:

first: revert the preference for the +/-2 bracket, and either allow equal probability for all match types, OR preference singe tier matches over two or three tier matches. 

this immediately takes the pressure off of tier 8s +2 bracket, and lets them see other matches more frequently. 

 

second: loosen the 3/5/7 structure, and implement one rule- the number of lower tier tanks must be equal to or greater than that of higher tier tanks. for a bottom tier tank in the +2 bracket, this would make the worst possible match become 3/4/8, and allow for almost* anything between that and 1/1/13.  *the mid tier tanks are held to the same rule, so there cannot be a 4/2/9 game for example*

for a two tier game, any combination between 7/8 and 1/14 is possible. 

this would allow for tier 3 to see a +2 bracket, with probable limits on the number of tier 4/5 tanks- for example, a restriction to no worse than 2/3/10 or similar.  

this elimates the possibilty of those nightmare 10/3/2 games where the bottom tier tanks are basically worthless, but allows for greater variety in the MM structure than current.

why not just change the mm to +1/-1 ? would make it far easier to balance tanks and the issues of feeling useless goes away completly



Diablobo #82 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 23:19

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View PostLiberty75, on Aug 04 2017 - 23:06, said:

 

Let's try to keep it civil. I am hoping by the end of this thread that we can all be enlightened no matter what our current opinions may be.

 

No, we bash them over the head with facts. These idiots can't understand anything but force, and no amount of reasoning is going to get through. That's what happens when they go there. Somehow my experience doesn't count because I don't have as many battles as they do, so I can be ignored. I have their attention when I point out how ridiculous and stupid they look trying to polish a turd MM.

Diablobo #83 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 23:23

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View Postlionheart1118, on Aug 04 2017 - 23:13, said:

why not just change the mm to +1/-1 ? would make it far easier to balance tanks and the issues of feeling useless goes away completly

 

No, that would make things too fair and enjoyable for any players not having tens of thousands of games experience and would attract too many new players willing to inject life into this dying game. The future is mobile touchscreenlickers and that is what they do it for. Blitz has +1/-1, and balanced prammo. This game is dying from inertia, and the powers that be want to have plenty of tier VIII pinatas for the vets to kick around. The rest of you can suck tier X HEAT.

Edited by Diablobo, Aug 04 2017 - 23:24.


shaggy996 #84 Posted Aug 04 2017 - 23:42

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as I was talking about the stupid team compositions also. On the rare occasion I do get a tier 8 game this is a typical team makeup for me. This is a really dumb team comp and it happens over and over.

 

 

 



Diablobo #85 Posted Aug 05 2017 - 00:07

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View Postshaggy996, on Aug 04 2017 - 23:42, said:

as I was talking about the stupid team compositions also. On the rare occasion I do get a tier 8 game this is a typical team makeup for me. This is a really dumb team comp and it happens over and over.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, on the very rare and few occasions that we do get a top tier game, we are always one among three. Shouldn't the tier X guys get more lower numbers than we do? If you play tier VIII, then what is so bad with being more than three top tier? What goes around, comes around. You get your sometimes tier VI games facing a bunch of tier VIIIs, and then you get the tier VIII guys facing a bunch of tier X. But what you do not want is facing a few tier X tanks every damn game, with the few tier VI tanks you see being the vast majority in the match. It's literally one step forward and three steps back. 

Hippowolf #86 Posted Aug 05 2017 - 00:08

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The gripes about MM would diminish If WG would simply have MM select the map as well based on team tiers.  I.E. if some maps were designed to accommodate the mix of low and high tiers and used for those battles then things would be better.  Conversely, an all tier X battle would be a different set of maps.  

 

2 cents



shaggy996 #87 Posted Aug 05 2017 - 00:19

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View PostDiablobo, on Aug 04 2017 - 15:07, said:

 

Yeah, on the very rare and few occasions that we do get a top tier game, we are always one among three. Shouldn't the tier X guys get more lower numbers than we do? If you play tier VIII, then what is so bad with being more than three top tier? What goes around, comes around. You get your sometimes tier VI games facing a bunch of tier VIIIs, and then you get the tier VIII guys facing a bunch of tier X. But what you do not want is facing a few tier X tanks every damn game, with the few tier VI tanks you see being the vast majority in the match. It's literally one step forward and three steps back. 

 

not real perceptive? its all TDs, both teams and this is the norm if Im on a TD. It tries to stack all the same tank type. Having all of the top tier a support tank is not good. 

shaggy996 #88 Posted Aug 05 2017 - 00:27

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and my next tier 8 match, All TDs again. OVER AND OVER

 


Edited by shaggy996, Aug 05 2017 - 00:27.


shaggy996 #89 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 10:06

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I found a new fun thing to do. Playing a Maus in a 3/5/7 game is comedy. 

HotMachete #90 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 10:59

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View PostDiablobo, on Aug 04 2017 - 16:23, said:

 

No, that would make things too fair and enjoyable for any players not having tens of thousands of games experience and would attract too many new players willing to inject life into this dying game. The future is mobile touchscreenlickers and that is what they do it for. Blitz has +1/-1, and balanced prammo. This game is dying from inertia, and the powers that be want to have plenty of tier VIII pinatas for the vets to kick around. The rest of you can suck tier X HEAT.

 

No, +1/-1 would be terrible, too.  There are a ton of tanks in the game who's armor, penetration, and mobility has been balanced under the assumption that in a certain percentage of their battles they'll get to face tanks that are two tiers lower or two tiers higher.  The dumbest change War Gaming has made to the game in years was the switch to the 3/5/7 match maker.  Switching to a hard +1/-1 MM would only make things worse.  If this was 4 years ago, and tanks were still undergoing lots of rebalance passes and there wasn't a flood of fixed stat premium tanks in the game, then yeah, a switch to +1/-1 might have been viable, but that ship has sailed.  The only fix War Gaming should have made to the MM was to make sure it stopped creating battles where one team ended up with 2 or 3 extra high tier tanks, and the quicker War Gaming undoes 3/5/7 and get us back to something closer to the old MM, the better.

Liberty75 #91 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 15:20

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It seems most of us are in agreement that the old MM had some issues that needed to be addressed. Most of the issues centered around team balance. The issues we agreed upon are the following:

 

1. The old MM would create teams that were not even in top or middle tier tanks. In other words, one team would have 4 top tier tanks and the other team would have 5.

 

2. The old MM would not balance tank types very well between teams. Example: it would give one team many TDs against the other team with many mediums.

 

3. The old MM would create teams with great disparities in HP (ex. 10% difference).

 

4. The old MM would create extreme matches such as 9/5/1 or 10/3/2. Although rare, they still occurred.

 

Now that we have agreed upon the earlier problems that needed to be resolved, we can focus on the changes. I am going to enter these onto the main page and then we can move along to the next phase of the debate.



BattleshipBob27 #92 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 16:06

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Would setting MM to give 1/3 of the games a 3/5/7 mix and 1/3 a 5/10 mix and 1/3 a same tier game solve the problem. This way you get top tier more see more of the same tier in an average game.

Liberty75 #93 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 16:22

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View PostBattleshipBob27, on Aug 06 2017 - 10:06, said:

Would setting MM to give 1/3 of the games a 3/5/7 mix and 1/3 a 5/10 mix and 1/3 a same tier game solve the problem. This way you get top tier more see more of the same tier in an average game.

 

Not for most of us. The strict template in and of itself is an annoying factor. The template IS one of the major problems.

 

Edit: I don't see how that solution boosts substantially top tier matches. It would be minuscule. Remember, same tier is NOT top tier.


Edited by Liberty75, Aug 06 2017 - 16:24.


TheGhostCat #94 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 17:47

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It's trash.

 

Tier 8 is dead. You can't be much use in the average t8 if 85% of your games are max MM.

 

It's not the three t10's...it's the Three T10's & FIVE T9's - meaning you're ALWAYS outclassed by more then half the enemy team.

 

This needs to stop.



Liberty75 #95 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 18:21

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In the next phase of the discussion we will look at the positive aspects or benefits of the old pre-9.18 MM system. Put forth, in clear terms, the good qualities in the old system. If someone puts forward a positive attribute that you disagree with, please speak up so we can discuss it. Remember, the focus is mainly on tiers 5-8, but the other tiers can be brought in as well if you feel strongly about them.

 

To start with, I will put forward what I think are generally accepted good attributes of the old MM.

1. The old MM gave a good spread of top, middle, and bottom tier games.

2. The old MM was random so team make-ups would be more dynamic (for example, 4/6/5, 2/7/6, etc...) and that added a rich variety to the game.

 

Are there any other positive attributes that we can list or are the items above wrong?



Buttknuckle #96 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 18:59

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Interesting tread OP. I am posting so I can follow.

 



VooDooKobra #97 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 19:11

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View PostLiberty75, on Aug 04 2017 - 07:05, said:

 

A quick comment on your #2 point. Mathematically that frequency of bottom tier matches occurring was most likely a really bad streak of games and over time would have corrected itself or somehow that person is very unlucky (or WG flipped the switch on their account :teethhappy: ). In all of these instances, these few players would be a statistical outlier for this discussion and would not further our debate focusing on it.

 

Your #1 comment on the other hand is a valid concern with many players and we will work with it.

When you say, "generally when lower tier there was 2 or 3 tanks per side." To verify, I'm assuming that these 2 or 3 tanks are bottom tier tanks. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also, "you had heavies unsure what to do when bottom so they got frustrated easily, then the medium tanks who wanting to be more than glorified scouts and actually get some kills in the game." I am taking this statement to mean that bottom tier players had a hard time adjusting to their role in a bottom tier situation.

 

Please let me know whether or not these sentences represent the two main points you are making:

a. In bottom tier matches players were generally in a group of 2 or 3 bottom tier tanks per side.

b. Regardless of the number of bottom tier tanks, bottom tier players were unsure how to adjust their role in the match to being a bottom tier tank.

 

i would say both were factors at times.  imo but b should also include the fact that having a low number of tier 6 with guns that are unable to pen the tier 8s was not fun either.  

 

View Postlionheart1118, on Aug 04 2017 - 15:13, said:

why not just change the mm to +1/-1 ? would make it far easier to balance tanks and the issues of feeling useless goes away completly

 

so then what do you do with pref MM tanks or do you just say they wasted their money?  do you change them all to same tier battles and screw up MM more?

 

View PostDiablobo, on Aug 04 2017 - 15:19, said:

 

No, we bash them over the head with facts. These idiots can't understand anything but force, and no amount of reasoning is going to get through. That's what happens when they go there. Somehow my experience doesn't count because I don't have as many battles as they do, so I can be ignored. I have their attention when I point out how ridiculous and stupid they look trying to polish a turd MM.

 

no you get frustrated when people are not bowing to your position on the matter and start throwing around insults which will only disrupt a good discussion.  the old MM was as much as a turd even though it was gold to you it was a turd to a lot of players and you are trying to polish that turd the same way you say people who disagree with you are.  the point of this is not to force people to change thier mind but to gather information on what people think about both MM and the problems.  i kindly ask you if you cannot do that without insulting people that you please do not take part

 

View Postshaggy996, on Aug 04 2017 - 16:19, said:

 

not real perceptive? its all TDs, both teams and this is the norm if Im on a TD. It tries to stack all the same tank type. Having all of the top tier a support tank is not good. 

 

doesn't the same thing happen though whenever there is a tank change or a up the line event?  you get the MM flooded with those vehicles.  the french top TD is getting changed so people want to get up there quickly so you get more TD in games

 

i do think though that if they fix how often you get top middle or bottom that you would make most people happy at this point.   you would have the guys who felt they were useless in the old MM at bottom happy and those who dont want to be bottom tier a lot happy.  it will be interesting to see what effect the new mode has on tier 8 MM after 9.20


Edited by VooDooKobra, Aug 06 2017 - 19:21.


Liberty75 #98 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 21:27

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 06 2017 - 13:11, said:

i would say both were factors at times.  imo but b should also include the fact that having a low number of tier 6 with guns that are unable to pen the tier 8s was not fun either. 

 

How about this for B?

In the old MM, bottom tier players would have difficulty adjusting their gameplay to being a bottom tier and their guns had difficulty penetrating top tier vehicles.

 

As for the other comment, in bottom tier matches players were generally in a group of 2 or 3 bottom tier tanks per side. The only data I have is the 400 games I analyzed between me and my friend Macduff48 (tiers 5-8). It is the only information we have as far as I know and it did show a general trend between the two players before I combined our numbers. The number of games that we had as a group of 3 or less tanks at bottom tier, regardless of the numbers at the top or middle, was 10 (2.5%). If I increase the number to 4 tanks at the bottom, it is 24 total matches for 6%. When compared to only bottom tier matches (114 games out of that 400) it is about 21% of those matches.

 

How about this:

About 1/10 of a player's bottom tier matches (about 2.5% of all their matches) saw them in a group of 3 or less bottom tier tanks.

 

Many of us think it must be higher (even I thought this before I investigated) because those memories stand out more. The normal stuff (regular matches that we had) isn't retained. So the figures in our head are distorted. This is normal, by the way, and one of the reasons I dug into the data to find out.

 

I wanted to ask another friend for his replays to triple check, but he uninstalled the other day and they are now lost.



Discdogtrooper #99 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 21:38

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I think wargaming is on the right track. The balance of tank types is good. However there is still HUGE problem that I cannot overcome. The 3/5/7 IS NOT working from my stand point. In the last 100 battles, I have been BOTTOM tier 71 times. Middle tier 19 times. Top tier 10 times. My kill ratio has dropped as has my win ratio. Not sure how luck factors in when 11 out of 15 games are losses AND 8 or 9 of those games are VERY VERY lopsided.

I love this game. I have been a player for 4 years. But the fun factor has dropped a lot. Is there a reason why can't have 2 tier matches? Playing up 1 tier is obviously better than playing up 2 tiers. Depending on tank types, it is impossible to kill or even damage a tank two tiers higher.. even with gold rounds. Is 2 tier matches a possibility??



xxBigbacon #100 Posted Aug 06 2017 - 22:32

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3/5/7 sucks...period...its fun being low tier 20+ times in a row. 

 

I still wish they'd try other templates. I really do think a 3/9/3 would be the most ideal set up. Mid tier most games and there isn't half a team of fodder. you face things you can fight.







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